Merseyrail say you should wait at unmanned booking office to avoid a Penalty Fare

[Darandio]

I'm not sure you understand exactly what an auditing account is.

Another case of careful what you wish for. You’re handing the authoritarian’s it in a plate.

Every single one I’ve seen they are not in private property, only public.

Smile and say hello after all your are filmed everywhere in life. You can’t start drawing up lines to suit individuals tolerance levels this never works. We are back to the feelings police.

Thanks for confirming.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

“Feelings police” is a phrase these people often use, of course.

The worrying censorship of commonly-held right-of-centre views has nothing to do with disincentivising harassment of (very often female) workers. These sociopaths very often have serious criminal records.

 

[Haywain]

Every single one I’ve seen they are not in private property, only public.

There's one right at the top of this thread that is on private property.

 

[jon0844]

“Feelings police” is a phrase these people often use, of course.

The worrying censorship of commonly-held right-of-centre views has nothing to do with disincentivising harassment of (very often female) workers. These sociopaths very often have serious criminal records.

I never realised that thinking it was bad for someone to harass a teacher in a school, often filming kids at the same time, was some sort of snowflake/wokeness/PC gone mad.

 

[Benjwri]

Every single one I’ve seen they are not in private property, only public.

Smile and say hello after all your are filmed everywhere in life. You can’t start drawing up lines to suit individuals tolerance levels this never works. We are back to the feelings police.

Not that trespass is a criminal offence in UK law anyways, and is a civil matter for which they are hugely unlikely to be able to bring a case against them for if they leave when asked.

I agree there is nothing that is wrong legally with anything any of these 'auditors' are doing, but that doesn't mean it is right. They go around harassing people who are just doing their job, and I think it's undeniable that as mentioned above it is intended to cause an argument to get them views on YouTube.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I never realised that thinking it was bad for someone to harass a teacher in a school, often filming kids at the same time, was some sort of snowflake/wokeness/PC gone mad.

Never seen one in a school. I believe schools are a different kettle of fish these days and people cant wander around anymore.

I see you've gone for the nuclear defence statement bingo. 10/10

 

[AlterEgo]

More Youtube social censorship isn't a good thing. There is a dangerous left is best and no other opinions are allowed culture at the moment.

Most of these videos I have seen would have zero content if the power hungry authorities in them just left these people alone, they cause the issues with their ego.

It sounds like you don't know what auditing is. It's bored and poorly-adjusted people taking time to engineer confrontations, to harass corporate security guards and agents of the state like the police. Doesn't sound like the sort of activity banned by lefties, but you can be sure the decisions to demonetise YouTube content absolutely are to do with Google being in thrall to Big Business. Also, that doesn't sound very lefty to me.

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Every single one I’ve seen they are not in private property, only public.

Er, the video which started this thread is filmed on private property.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Thanks for confirming.

Thanks for your patronising retort.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==

It sounds like you don't know what auditing is. It's bored and poorly-adjusted people taking time to engineer confrontations, to harass corporate security guards and agents of the state like the police. Doesn't sound like the sort of activity banned by lefties, but you can be sure the decisions to demonetise YouTube content absolutely are to do with Google being in thrall to Big Business. Also, that doesn't sound very lefty to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==


Er, the video which started this thread is filmed on private property.

The internet is ruled by the left at the moment. Any one moving from the agreed narrative is punished in some way. The left should be viewed as dimly as the right; maybe in 10/15 years this lesson will be learnt.

Yes ok the Railway is private, however it's a very public private eh.

 

[jon0844]

Never seen one in a school. I believe schools are a different kettle of fish these days and people cant wander around anymore.

I see you've gone for the nuclear defence statement bingo. 10/10

There are loads of videos in schools. The argument is that schools are public, and so they're allowed to go wherever they want. As you can imagine, staff (usually female) have to try and get them to leave - and they refuse. When the police arrive, that's the 'money maker'.

I am surprised you're defending something you clearly, by your own admission, don't know anything about. I'd say do some research and come back when you've actually seen what you're defending as some sort of 'freedom of speech' (or in the US, 1st amendment) crusade.

Perhaps worse than the videos themselves are the comments on the videos.

Oh and another grift from these people is things like removing or bypassing electricity meters, then refusing access to the utility companies to cut off their supply. Given there are people genuinely unable to pay for their energy at the moment, these people are seen as heroes for 'sticking it to the man' when they're actually stealing.

Now as you're saying the nasty left are trying to ban this, I guess that means you're saying the people making the videos are on the right. You may indeed be correct on that one.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Whilst he calls himself an "auditor" the video has nothing to do with auditing?

Looks like two people filming each other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==

There are loads of videos in schools. The argument is that schools are public, and so they're allowed to go wherever they want. As you can imagine, staff (usually female) have to try and get them to leave - and they refuse. When the police arrive, that's the 'money maker'.

I am surprised you're defending something you clearly, by your own admission, don't know anything about. I'd say do some research and come back when you've actually seen what you're defending as some sort of 'freedom of speech' (or in the US, 1st amendment) crusade.

Perhaps worse than the videos themselves are the comments on the videos.

You've decided I don't know very much about.

I've seen many many of these videos and not seen one in a school ever.

I'm not any crusade thank you very much.

You want the filming of police and public employees banned?

 

[urbophile]

Have to say this has been my experience at times as well. I can certainly remember turning up somewhere (IIRC it was St Michaels) to find the window was open but no member of staff visible, ended up standing there for a good 15 minutes before he appeared.

Expecting passengers to wait 15 minutes for a ticket on a line with a 15 minute frequency is totally unreasonable. If I were taking a long distance journey and needed to buy a ticket I would give myself at least that time, but for a local service you expect to turn up and go with as little delay as possible.

This whole fiasco is down to Merseyrail's reluctance/inability to implement a system of e-tickets or contactless payments, or even installing a ticket machine at every station.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Expecting passengers to wait 15 minutes for a ticket on a line with a 15 minute frequency is totally unreasonable. If I were taking a long distance journey and needed to buy a ticket I would give myself at least that time, but for a local service you expect to turn up and go with as little delay as possible.

This whole fiasco is down to Merseyrail's reluctance/inability to implement a system of e-tickets or contactless payments, or even installing a ticket machine at every station.

I'm afraid you aren't allowed to stand up for yourself and god forbid if you even up the filming with them.

Why on earth they couldn't deal with it properly without delaying the passenger I don't know. Contact the station staff whilst allowing the passenger to continue with their journey?

Giulty until proven innocent not he railways. Don't give me the appeal on the Penatly Fare route, once the situation has passed you won't have a fighting chance against the wall of the TOC. They aren't going to dob themselves in.

 

[Haywain]

Not that trespass is a criminal offence in UK law anyways, and is a civil matter for which they are hugely unlikely to be able to bring a case against them for if they leave when asked.

Whether trespass is a criminal offence depends very much on where you are trespassing. On the railway it is a criminal offence.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Whilst he calls himself an "auditor" the video has nothing to do with auditing?

Looks like two people filming each other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==


You've decided I don't know very much about.

I've seen many many of these videos and not seen one in a school ever.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Refers to one Katie Kidman, who is an auditor who “specialises” in schools and is old enough to know better. She even films and talks (creepily) to children in many of them. Myriad arrests, charges, and convictions.

At 27:16, school principal: "You don't have permission to be here."

Just one example. A lot of these people have obvious mental issues.

 

[Bluejays]

So. Bloke without ticket gets a penalty fare, refuses to pay and gets ejected from the train.

I came across this disturbing video today we're a man was unlawfully ejected with unreasonable force from a Merseyrail train and station. The passenger was calm throughout and very distressed and was explaining that when he got to the booking office it was not staffed. He even waited around 3 minutes but no staff member appeared and he started his journey without having had an opportunity to purchase.

Very disturbing a member of Merseyrail bylaw enforcement staff attempted to penalty fare him but when the customer insisted that he had not had an opportunity to pay his fare as the booking office was not manned they unlawfully ejected him from the train.

A penalty fare cannot be issued in the circumstances and the same by law enforcement officers some of whom have been found guilty of assaulting customers in court.

The customer was calm and obviously distressed.? Not sure what video you were watching !

 

[Bletchleyite]

It sounds like you don't know what auditing is. It's bored and poorly-adjusted people taking time to engineer confrontations, to harass corporate security guards and agents of the state like the police. Doesn't sound like the sort of activity banned by lefties, but you can be sure the decisions to demonetise YouTube content absolutely are to do with Google being in thrall to Big Business. Also, that doesn't sound very lefty to me.

Yep. It's not mystery shoppers (that would be fine). It is people who are deliberately and wilfully engineering conflict in order to film it and get clicks (i.e. it's a form of clickbait). It's pretty disgraceful behaviour, and in terms of the railway every single encounter will be a clear "attitude test" fail.

I'd not censor it, but a site that knowingly allows people to make money out of it is behaving pretty disgracefully. If I was an advertiser I'd certainly be looking to insist my paid advertising was not displayed in conjunction with this sort of behaviour.

Think of it alongside those people who seem to have issues with the Police every day or two when the majority of people never even speak to a Police Officer for years on end - the Police aren't angels as per recent events, but the problem with those people is almost always them.

To recount a recent odd encounter I had at Euston from a couple of BTP who thought I was behaving oddly by going down Euston P8 ramp and back on myself to where the back coach would be, I had two options as to how to respond to being questioned:

1. I could have explained what I was doing and why, which is what I did, i.e. I was going there to board the back coach as it was always quiet. That explanation was accepted and they went away.
2. I could have said something snarky like "I'm in a public bit of the station, haven't you got anything better to do?". If I'd done that, I suspect my day would have got a lot worse very quickly.

These accounts would do stuff like I did, but go a long way down towards the staff-only tunnel off the ramp ends (to deliberately provoke intervention) and then take option (2) and film it. That just isn't how one should behave.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==

So. Bloke without ticket gets a penalty fare, refuses to pay and gets ejected from the train.

The customer was calm and obviously distressed.? Not sure what video you were watching !

That one clearly isn't an auditor. TBH given that the Merseyrail enforcement officers are Carlisle Security "rentathugs" I think that one was actually pretty good, very patient and not thuggish at all.

Merseyrail need TVMs, e-tickets and contactless, though, if they had those things then it'd not have happened. I guess the ticket office staff member was using the toilet briefly or something, because you need to leave enough time for a short queue I guess they thought that doesn't class as closed. Or the passenger wasn't being truthful, we don't know.

 

[AlterEgo]

The internet is ruled by the left at the moment.

No. It’s ruled by advertisers and very large private corporations.

Yes ok the Railway is private, however it's a very public private eh.

Didn’t seem very public to the guy who was manhandled first off the train and then off the station into what is actually a public space!

 

[VauxhallandI]

No. It’s ruled by advertisers and very large private corporations.


Didn’t seem very public to the guy who was manhandled first off the train and then off the station into what is actually a public space!

No it certainly didn't.

 

[Llanigraham]

Not that trespass is a criminal offence in UK law anyways, and is a civil matter for which they are hugely unlikely to be able to bring a case against them for if they leave when asked.

I agree there is nothing that is wrong legally with anything any of these 'auditors' are doing, but that doesn't mean it is right. They go around harassing people who are just doing their job, and I think it's undeniable that as mentioned above it is intended to cause an argument to get them views on YouTube.

Not totally correct. There are certain areas where trepass is a criminal offence, including the railway, MOD land, Nuclear establshments and a few more obtuse others.

 

[gray1404]

So. Bloke without ticket gets a penalty fare, refuses to pay and gets ejected from the train.

The customer was calm and obviously distressed.? Not sure what video you were watching !

The customer did not have an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding because the booking office was not manned. It is a simple as that. He should not have been set up on buy to rent a slugs and no attempts should have been made to even issue a penalty fare let alone remove him from the train using violence. They had no basis for requesting his details for a penalty fare no asking him to leave the train or station because he had not been presented with an opportunity to purchase by the railways.

 

[yorkie]

If the ticket office was unstaffed, the passenger is entitled to board the train and pay the appropriate fare at the first opportunity, without delay to their journey.

If the Merseyrail enforcement officer is claiming otherwise, they are wrong.

 

[Bluejays]

The customer did not have an opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding because the booking office was not manned. It is a simple as that. He should not have been set up on buy to rent a slugs and no attempts should have been made to even issue a penalty fare let alone remove him from the train using violence. They had no basis for requesting his details for a penalty fare no asking him to leave the train or station because he had not been presented with an opportunity to purchase by the railways.

How do you know the ticket office was closed ? Just because the passenger says it was closed it doesn't mean it was. He wasn't 'set upon with violence ' either, he was warned and then removed. Then went back to get in the face of the security guy at the station.

If the office was closed then there has been an abuse of process, we don't know that though. Judging by the fellas other videos it's not exactly out of character for him

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's quite possible, if he was in a rush, that he walked past the booking office and saw it was open but nobody was at the desk, and didn't wait at all.

We will probably never know.

 

[Bluejays]

It's quite possible, if he was in a rush, that he walked past the booking office and saw it was open but nobody was at the desk, and didn't wait at all.

We will probably never know.

Personally I think the most likely scenario is that he has manafactured this scenario for a YouTube video. The rest of the content on his channel would appear to support this.

 

[gray1404]

The person in the video explained that there was nobody in the booking office to serve. The staff member did not even attempt to verify this but they merely went straight into saying he should have waited longer. The customer then stated he has waited 3 minutes. This is more than enough time off peak hours. Again there was no basis for requesting details or issuing a penalty fare and first no basis for removing the passenger using the unreasonable force as they have not had an opportunity to purchase.

 

[35B]

It's quite possible, if he was in a rush, that he walked past the booking office and saw it was open but nobody was at the desk, and didn't wait at all.

We will probably never know.

He made claims, but the video notably did not provide any proof of those claims.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think the most likely scenario is that he has manafactured this scenario for a YouTube video. The rest of the content on his channel would appear to support this.

Ah yes. That one didn't seem like he was an "auditor", but the rest of the channel certainly confirms he is!

We also don't know what he said or did before he started filming (though presumably Merseyrail do as those officers normally carry bodycams which would presumably be turned on before they approach someone).

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The person in the video explained that there was nobody in the booking office to serve. The staff member did not even attempt to verify this but they merely went straight into saying he should have waited longer. The customer then stated he has waited 3 minutes. This is more than enough time off peak hours. Again there was no basis for requesting details or issuing a penalty fare and first no basis for removing the passenger using the unreasonable force as they have not had an opportunity to purchase.

There's also the possibility the RPI knew him, and not for good reasons. Merseyrail isn't huge and doesn't have massive numbers of RPIs, certainly when I was a kid you could recognise them easily (and a couple were featured as "fake convicts" on the "pay or you'll get prosecuted" posters of the 1990s! ).

 

[Bluejays]

The person in the video explained that there was nobody in the booking office to serve. The staff member did not even attempt to verify this but they merely went straight into saying he should have waited longer. The customer then stated he has waited 3 minutes. This is more than enough time off peak hours. Again there was no basis for requesting details or issuing a penalty fare and first no basis for removing the passenger using the unreasonable force as they have not had an opportunity to purchase.

We don't know at what point in the interaction the video starts . It may of already been verified that someone was there, the security guys could of got on at that station for all we know. Just because he said it, doesn't mean it's true.

 

[AlterEgo]

He made claims, but the video notably did not provide any proof of those claims.

Indeed. And the video starts in the middle of the altercation. It is not possible to draw any conclusions about who was right and who was wrong from the footage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. And the video starts in the middle of the altercation. It is not possible to draw any conclusions about who was right and who was wrong from the footage.

What I would absolutely say is that the RPI acted very professionally and knew exactly what he was and wasn't allowed to do, and also showed a lot of discretion by not only not doing the PF but also deciding not to attempt an MG11 for failure to give details. Given the reputation of Merseyrail for "rentathugs" I think it looked quite good for him, though he was maybe (we can't tell) misinformed as to what constitutes an open booking office.

If the guy, as it seems, is one of those "auditors", then I'm inclined to side with the RPI and suspect the "auditor" is lying or hiding something. I have no time whatsoever for anyone who wilfully engineers conflict for financial gain at others' expense, it's just a despicable thing to do. It couldn't be made illegal without serious "freedom of speech" issues, but YouTube should absolutely put in place and enforce policy that such channels cannot be monetised as they are so unethical.