• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Merseyrail say you should wait at unmanned booking office to avoid a Penalty Fare

Status
Not open for further replies.

rs101

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2013
Messages
356
Personally I think the most likely scenario is that he has manafactured this scenario for a YouTube video. The rest of the content on his channel would appear to support this.
Except the video wasn't recorded by the creator of this channel - that person just collects this sort of video and uploads them in the hope he can monetize them.

As he's a self appointed "auditor" I am inclined not to believe a single word he says - look at his YouTube channel to see what sort of person he appears to be. I would be totally unsurprised were it not that guy's first encounter with that RPI and so it was just another "here we go again".

I'd read nothing at all into it with regard to Merseyrail's policy.
We don't know anything about the person who actually recorded that video, other than it wasn't the person whose channel it appears on.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

urbophile

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2015
Messages
2,282
Location
Liverpool
-I'm a regular user of the network, and you do often see the ticket office closed. However I've never seen one closed without a sign in the window. (See attached photo). Some offices however eg Bromborough Rake are often completely closed, with the shutter/gates across and locked with a side access gate open to get to the platforms.

-From my previous experiences with the rentathugs, they will usually call a ticket office to confirm it was shut - however most people including myself take photos of the sign in the window (as advised by said notice)

-Unfortunately the rentathugs do tend to operate on a "guilty no ifs no buts" policy, and have no knowledge of most ticket types, NRCoT etc.

Photo of the standard Merseyrail out of office photo attached for reference. On the occasion I took the photo, the guy was picking litter and emptying the bins on the platforms.
I am frequent user of Merseyrail, though because I hold an aged person's pass I only need to use the ticket office on the rare occasions I travel in the morning peak. I have noticed in recent months that the office at my local station (Cressington) is often completely closed, with shutters down and no sign visible; this is often around 9.30 to 10.00, so I don't know if it has been open before then. More recently (only in the last week or so) I have seen the notice, with the clock face as pictured, in the window with the shutters up. I assume this is because the staff are only briefly absent. But if a passenger enters the system when the shutters are down and no obvious instruction on what to do (I know that there are posters elsewhere saying this) they can't be blamed for travelling without a ticket. If they have travelled before they might perhaps assume from the regular presence of staff collecting fares inside the barriers at eg Liverpool Central, that they are expected to pay there. It's difficult to see what else they could do.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,907
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
You would then wonder why, in these circumstances, they waited for 3 minutes at the window.

Unless they didn't, of course. My suspicion is that they perhaps saw nobody there and just walked past. Notice how the person dithers and mumbles about how long they allegedly waited despite the discourse otherwise being fairly clear.

I am frequent user of Merseyrail, though because I hold an aged person's pass I only need to use the ticket office on the rare occasions I travel in the morning peak. I have noticed in recent months that the office at my local station (Cressington) is often completely closed, with shutters down and no sign visible; this is often around 9.30 to 10.00, so I don't know if it has been open before then. More recently (only in the last week or so) I have seen the notice, with the clock face as pictured, in the window with the shutters up. I assume this is because the staff are only briefly absent. But if a passenger enters the system when the shutters are down and no obvious instruction on what to do (I know that there are posters elsewhere saying this) they can't be blamed for travelling without a ticket. If they have travelled before they might perhaps assume from the regular presence of staff collecting fares inside the barriers at eg Liverpool Central, that they are expected to pay there. It's difficult to see what else they could do.

If it's fully closed, the staff will know about/can check this, and it's unlikely they will be the first person they encountered having been unable to purchase. I've been in that position and was let through the gateline and was asked to go into the Mtogo and buy one and come back and show them, which I did. Presumably had I walked straight out they'd have given chase and written up an MG11.
 

urbophile

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2015
Messages
2,282
Location
Liverpool
I suppose I'm making a more general point about Merseyrail policy in general, and not about this particular case which may or may not be authentic. I just wonder if the security officers – in this case or as a routine – confirm whether or not that particular office was open. From this video it didn't seem that they did. OK nobody expects them to take any potential fare-dodger's word for it, but professionalism as well as common courtesy might expect that they made some attempt to check. What we need are some stories from genuine would-be customers: as Bletchleyite suggests, and my experience confirms, staff are usually understanding of ticketless passengers in such circumstances. And whereas if a ticket office is closed for a significant time during a busy period, it is likely that many passengers will present with the same problem; if the member of staff simply popped to the loo for two minutes there may well be nobody else to confirm that.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
24,008
Location
LBK
We also don’t know which station it was or whether it had alternative ticketing facilities. This information was omitted from the video.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,687
Location
Sheffield
We don't know anything about the person who actually recorded that video, other than it wasn't the person whose channel it appears on.
Plenty of posters seem to 'know' that he is a liar who deliberately provokes confrontation on a regular basis.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
19,816
Plenty of posters seem to 'know' that he is a liar who deliberately provokes confrontation on a regular basis.
Some have made that assumption in the same way that some have made assumptions about the Merseyrail staff.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,504
Photo of the standard Merseyrail out of office photo attached for reference. On the occasion I took the photo, the guy was picking litter and emptying the bins on the platforms.

“Please buy a ticket at your destination station, or if you are changing trains and there is a ticket office close to the platform you are required to buy a ticket before completing your journey.”

Hmm. That doesn’t match what it says in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,907
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
“Please buy a ticket at your destination station, or if you are changing trains and there is a ticket office close to the platform you are required to buy a ticket before completing your journey.”

Hmm. That doesn’t match what it says in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

In what way doesn't it? You are not required to miss a connection to buy a ticket, but you are required to buy one at a change point if it is reasonable to do so. It's just explaining that.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,504
In what way doesn't it? You are not required to miss a connection to buy a ticket, but you are required to buy one at a change point if it is reasonable to do so. It's just explaining that.

Not explaining it very well at all. What has the distance between the platform(s) and ticket office got to do with anything? If it is a long walk to the ticket office but you have an hour before your connection then are you exempt from buying a ticket there? What if the ticket office is on the platform but there is a long queue waiting to be served there: are you expected to miss your connection?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,907
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Not explaining it very well at all. What has the distance between the platform(s) and ticket office got to do with anything? If it is a long walk to the ticket office but you have an hour before your connection then are you exempt from buying a ticket there? What if the ticket office is on the platform but there is a long queue waiting to be served there: are you expected to miss your connection?

It's slightly more lenient than the NRCoT, e.g. if you're changing at Liverpool Central Deep Level it's probably not reasonable to have to go up top to pay, whereas if it's Sandhills or Kirkdale you'll easily manage it even if you've only got 5 minutes.

I'd not get hung up on it, it's a reasonable "man on the Clapham omnibus" explanation.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
13,935
Location
UK
In what way doesn't it? You are not required to miss a connection to buy a ticket, but you are required to buy one at a change point if it is reasonable to do so. It's just explaining that.
The test isn't, however "if there is a ticket office close to the platform". It's whether you would miss your connection by doing so. If you only have 5 minutes to change trains, then buying a ticket could well cause you to do so.

They could have avoided tying themselves in knots if they'd simply said "if there is time, without missing your connection".
 

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,733
Location
Merseyside
Probably relevant to this thread just got off at Wallasey station and Noticed the ticket office is closed and looks like it was closed for a while with all the crap on the ticket tray.

That would have been a valid defence against an RPI "on a mission"
 

Attachments

  • 20230118_095402_HDR.jpg
    20230118_095402_HDR.jpg
    2.2 MB · Views: 96
  • 20230118_095634.jpg
    20230118_095634.jpg
    3 MB · Views: 96
  • 20230118_095349.jpg
    20230118_095349.jpg
    3.7 MB · Views: 96

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,486
Location
Wirral
Probably relevant to this thread just got off at Wallasey station and Noticed the ticket office is closed and looks like it was closed for a while with all the crap on the ticket tray.

That would have been a valid defence against an RPI "on a mission"
I believe that window hasn't been used for years, the actual office is on the other platform if I remember rightly!
 

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,733
Location
Merseyside
I believe that window hasn't been used for years, the actual office is on the other platform if I remember rightly!
I had a look at the other side no office seen, I presume hidden behind an advertising board.

Edit: I'm Heading back to Wallasey, I'll double check and update.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,907
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Is it Grove Road?


If so, it appears there is one booking office and it looks like the one pictured.

I suspect just the usual poor cleaning which is endemic on Merseyrail. The whole network is consistently dirty and poorly maintained in terms of the little attention-to-detail type things.
 

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,733
Location
Merseyside
I believe that window hasn't been used for years, the actual office is on the other platform if I remember rightly!
Just checked yes you're right, it's inside the waiting room, not where I expected at the top of the steps
 

Attachments

  • 20230118_110840.jpg
    20230118_110840.jpg
    4.4 MB · Views: 48
  • 20230118_110740.jpg
    20230118_110740.jpg
    3.9 MB · Views: 48

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
72,965
Location
Yorkshire
I wouldn't trust an "auditor" but nor would I trust this revenue person, who didn't communicate in a way that instils any confidence.
It's slightly more lenient than the NRCoT, e.g. if you're changing at Liverpool Central Deep Level it's probably not reasonable to have to go up top to pay, whereas if it's Sandhills or Kirkdale you'll easily manage it even if you've only got 5 minutes.

I'd not get hung up on it, it's a reasonable "man on the Clapham omnibus" explanation.
For the avoidance of doubt for anyone reading this, there is no requirement for anyone to delay their journey at an intermediate station.
 

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,733
Location
Merseyside
Is it Grove Road?


If so, it appears there is one booking office and it looks like the one pictured.

I suspect just the usual poor cleaning which is endemic on Merseyrail. The whole network is consistently dirty and poorly maintained in terms of the little attention-to-detail type things.
No it's Wallasey station.


Having said that I might just have a look at Grove Road and see what you're talking about.
 

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,733
Location
Merseyside
There isn't a station called Wallasey. There are Wallasey Grove Road and Wallasey Village, and the "know your station" map of the latter doesn't feature anywhere that looks even remotely like the picture.
Ah I see the confusion this is Wallasey village station, I have been to Wallasey Grove Road before but didn't really look at the ticket office.

The photo is of Wallsey Village station.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,907
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Ah I see the confusion this is Wallasey village station, I have been to Wallasey Grove Road before but didn't really look at the ticket office.

The photo is of Wallsey Village station.

Ah, thanks.


It definitely isn't the main booking office there, but I'm struggling to see exactly where it is! The map doesn't feature any corridor that even looks remotely like that.

If it is permanently closed the sign needs changing to refer people to the other one, otherwise there will be unnecessary (and appealable) PFs issued.
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,832
Location
Liverpool
It definitely isn't the main booking office there, but I'm struggling to see exactly where it is! The map doesn't feature any corridor that even looks remotely like that.

If it is permanently closed the sign needs changing to refer people to the other one, otherwise there will be unnecessary (and appealable) PFs issued.
That office looks like its on the New Brighton bound platform. I imagine the number of passengers travelling from Wallasey Village to Grove Road and New Brighton is very small hence they have obviously given up on the office on that side. Most passengers would be alighting on that platform. Those that do want to go that way would / should go to the Liverpool bound platform where the other ticket office is located.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,907
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That office looks like its on the New Brighton bound platform. I imagine the number of passengers travelling from Wallasey Village to Grove Road and New Brighton is very small hence they have obviously given up on the office on that side. Most passengers would be alighting on that platform. Those that do want to go that way would / should go to the Liverpool bound platform where the other ticket office is located.

A sensible TOC would put a TVM there. Meanwhile, in 1975... :)
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,687
Location
Sheffield
That office looks like its on the New Brighton bound platform. I imagine the number of passengers travelling from Wallasey Village to Grove Road and New Brighton is very small hence they have obviously given up on the office on that side. Most passengers would be alighting on that platform. Those that do want to go that way would / should go to the Liverpool bound platform where the other ticket office is located.
Why should they when the notice tells tham to buy at their destination ?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,907
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Why should they when the notice tells tham to buy at their destination ?

I would say that poster constitutes permission to board without a ticket. I wonder if the RPIs see it the same way?

They really should replace it with one saying where the booking office is (or put a TVM there!)
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,832
Location
Liverpool
Why should they when the notice tells tham to buy at their destination ?
Yes but if the booking office is open on the other platform?

Perhaps there should be a notice to explain that only the booking office on the Liverpool bound platform is now used?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top