Merseyrail - What's the point of Hunts Cross?

[notlob.divad]

In looking at extensions to the airport, we are loosing sight of something. Liverpool South Parkway was built at quite a considerable expense, and chosen as the airport interchange, precisely because it serves all of the lines. It is the best connected location. So despite Hunts Cross being closer to the airport and quicker on a bus, South Parkway is used for the shuttle bus location. Any rail extension to Speke and the airport, whilst I am sure it would be appreciated and used by many, will loose out on that advantage that South Parkway has.

People from the wider catchment area will still have to change between transport modes and that will always play against the business case of extending the line. For that reason, I think it would be better to look at other options for better integration of the train station and the airport and smooth the passengers experience. If that can somehow facilitate better connectivity to the Speke estate at the same time then it is all good.

 

[8A Rail]

In looking at extensions to the airport, we are loosing sight of something. Liverpool South Parkway was built at quite a considerable expense, and chosen as the airport interchange, precisely because it serves all of the lines. It is the best connected location. So despite Hunts Cross being closer to the airport and quicker on a bus, South Parkway is used for the shuttle bus location. Any rail extension to Speke and the airport, whilst I am sure it would be appreciated and used by many, will loose out on that advantage that South Parkway has.

People from the wider catchment area will still have to change between transport modes and that will always play against the business case of extending the line. For that reason, I think it would be better to look at other options for better integration of the train station and the airport and smooth the passengers experience. If that can somehow facilitate better connectivity to the Speke estate at the same time then it is all good.

I think that is well said to be honest. I think what people are forgetting, they are suggesting to extent the line from LSP to the airport - yes all well and good but that line will need access from BOTH directions and not just from Liverpool City Centre otherwise it will never get the numbers to make it worthwhile from further a field like Manchester Airport does (let alone the aircraft numbers).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In looking at extensions to the airport, we are loosing sight of something. Liverpool South Parkway was built at quite a considerable expense, and chosen as the airport interchange, precisely because it serves all of the lines. It is the best connected location. So despite Hunts Cross being closer to the airport and quicker on a bus, South Parkway is used for the shuttle bus location. Any rail extension to Speke and the airport, whilst I am sure it would be appreciated and used by many, will loose out on that advantage that South Parkway has.

Not really, provided that rail option serves South Parkway as well.

FWIW the bus used to run from Hunts Cross before SP was built. It was shown on the Merseyrail map as such.

 

[urbophile]

Not really, provided that rail option serves South Parkway as well.

FWIW the bus used to run from Hunts Cross before SP was built. It was shown on the Merseyrail map as such.

Maybe at some point it was. I remember the link that was shown on the map as being from Garston. However there have always been and still are buses from HX to the airport (81?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe at some point it was. I remember the link that was shown on the map as being from Garston. However there have always been and still are buses from HX to the airport (81?)

You are indeed correct. (Apologies for the graffiti on the map, it was the only pre-Parkway one I could find)

(Merseyrail map with Garston bus link showing)

 

[johnnychips]

Off-topic, but what interesting graffiti. Plazzy=plastic Scousers for the Wirral, but why 'wools' for the towns to the east?

 

[urbophile]

Woollybacks. Connection with sheep: don't ask!

 

[Gareth]

Woollybacks. Connection with sheep: don't ask!

It has something to do with dockers offloading wool from ships at the port. In seems a disproportionate were from inner Lancashire. That's the folklore anyway. It could very well be BS but it's more interesting than the "Sheep! Baa!" one.

Most online definitions insist its a derogatory term but it's not necessarily and depends on how it's being used. Certainly, it's no more innately offensive than "scouser".

 

[backontrack]

As for the stopping services from Manchester, it may be worth these carrying on to Lime Street as present but west of Birchwood skipping all bar Warrington Central, Warrington West, Widnes & South Parkway on the CLC and then picking up West Allerton, Mossley Hill & Edge Hill. Sankey could be retained with regular Merseyrail services rather than the slated infrequent service it's slated to get after Warrington West opens.

Padgate just gets the Liverpool services then?

 

[Gareth]

I don't think you credit people from our neighboring countries with enough intelligence. Many, many people in Europe are far more fluent in English than most English people are in any other European language. They find it really easy to get around. Why would they find it easier to get to the right train station in town than to get to the right bus stop to get to the airport? Lets face it, they aren't going to accidentally going to get off by West Allerton thinking it is the airport. I have got a train from El Prat Airport in Barcelona and it took me directly to a terminal station that was no where near where I needed to be. (I did argue with my friend about the train we were on because like you he assumed that if the train went to a terminus it would be exactly where we needed to be).

I don't think it's fair to insinuate I was making any comment on the relative intelligence of foreign nationals. I stand by my point. Travelling in a city you're not familiar with is not the same as being in your home town. That applies even within same country but more so when in other countries with their linguistic and cultural differences. A bus isn't the same as a train. I've travelled a reasonable amount in Europe and further afield and if I'm unfamiliar about the geography or transport system of the city I generally prefer train or tram over bus if the choice is there. This is especially true arriving from the airport and I just want to get into the centre and then find my bearings. Where there's only a bus, I'll often opt for a taxi such as the last time I was in Kraków and the rail line was being refurbished (unlike the time before when I used the train).

You may well say that's just personal preference and far from universal but it's generally recognised that train is better at abstracting road traffic than bus in most situations (and tram somewhere in between). Much of that's down to speed and comfort but also, for those unfamiliar with the city, the reassurance of a fixed link and its visibility. Abstracting road traffic is usually used in business cases for new train or tram lines & stations (as it was for Merseytram) and although often exaggerated to flatter the business case, it's not a kook theory.

So yes, the 82 & 86A are fine for what they are but a fixed link is an entirely different proposition.

 

[Gareth]

Padgate just gets the Liverpool services then?

Christ, you're going back a bit. It may just get the Liverpool services which would mean changing at Birchwood (or Warrington Central for longer distance services). This may not be ideal for someone going to Urmston or wherever but it would depend on both the Merseyrail frequency and that of the faster trains. That said, I wasn't proposing anything to terminate at Birchwood from the east so there would be nothing stopping anything from theoretically calling at Birchwood, if it was deemed necessary. Indeed, it could turn out to be desirable when timetabling some semi-fasts between the stoppers.

 

[Gareth]

In looking at extensions to the airport, we are loosing sight of something. Liverpool South Parkway was built at quite a considerable expense, and chosen as the airport interchange, precisely because it serves all of the lines. It is the best connected location. So despite Hunts Cross being closer to the airport and quicker on a bus, South Parkway is used for the shuttle bus location. Any rail extension to Speke and the airport, whilst I am sure it would be appreciated and used by many, will loose out on that advantage that South Parkway has.

People from the wider catchment area will still have to change between transport modes and that will always play against the business case of extending the line. For that reason, I think it would be better to look at other options for better integration of the train station and the airport and smooth the passengers experience. If that can somehow facilitate better connectivity to the Speke estate at the same time then it is all good.

I don't really understand the objection. We spent the money on South Parkway (over ten years back) and so it would have all been for nothing if we added a direct link to the airport? I certainly don't see how it diminishes South Parkway unless the link avoids South Parkway, which most proposals don't. South Parkway would still have the same services it has, plus the direct link to the airport.

The only thing I can possibly see what you're angling at here is that maybe the fixed link would preclude long distance services stopping at South Parkway for some reason. If that's the case, then it's a misunderstanding of how South Parkway works. Back when the station was proposed, it was not universally approved. Many insisted it was a waste of money, a vanity scheme of Merseytravel's and a white elephant because it wasn't close enough to the airport to be useful. Many continued in this vein even after it opened. Famously, the local director or Stagecoach buses thought it was a joke only for the 86 buses to then be rerouted to serve it, followed a year or two latter by Stagecoach-owned East Midlands trains. The mistake here was to see South Parkway as a consolation airport station. Its success has relatively little to do with the airport. Its main success is providing an interchange between Merseyrail & the WCML and for long distance services to give South Liverpool a stop without that traffic having to travel into Lime Street and back out again, or to Runcorn. That someone can come from Manchester/Warrington or Crewe/Runcorn and change for a bus to the airport from there rather than heading all the way into Lime Street is a bonus. If the airport didn't exist (and there's some who clearly wish it didn't, as the early part of this thread demonstrates) then there would still be a case for South Parkway existing. Likewise, there would still be a case for linking Speke.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is especially true arriving from the airport and I just want to get into the centre and then find my bearings. Where there's only a bus, I'll often opt for a taxi such as the last time I was in Kraków and the rail line was being refurbished (unlike the time before when I used the train).

That is an interesting point, though I don't 100% agree I'd certainly choose a train over any other mode because it's easy to understand. I dislike unfamiliar taxis because they have a habit of ripping you off and tend to be pricey anyway. Buses can be very confusing unless they are a well promoted dedicated shuttle (as, say, Hamburg used to operate to Ohlsdorf before the S-Bahn was extended to the airport). And Uber can skew it because it works the same everywhere and you can't really get ripped off because if you complain they'll usually refund.

 

[Dixie]

...why not keep heading north and branch off the line after Halewood instead? Then your service is just an extension from Hunt's Cross. Also means you then have another feather to put into the BCR calculations of reopening some of the line via Gateacre with direct airport services...

If the line to Gateacre was reopened further north, you could only connect Gateacre indirectly with the Airport via Hunts Cross as the link from north to east has been built over.

Going south towards the Airport from east of Halewood would be difficult as the line is on a high embankment and getting the line down and round to the south would be less easy. If you were going to connect that line to the Airport, I would say a better option would be to tunnel to the south just short of Hunts Cross, with a station under Hunts Cross crossroads (perhaps with a walkway underground to the existing station from the north end of the platform) and then continue in tunnel under the West Coast mainline under Woodend Avenue, and then either tunnel or cut and cover under Western Avenue to a station at the end of Western Avenue. That station could be sited in such a way as the south end of the platform is by the airport terminal and the north end is on Western Avenue. The journey would probably be too short for an intermediate station, but a possibility might be at Speke Boulevard.

 

[daodao]

If the line to Gateacre was reopened further north, you could only connect Gateacre indirectly with the Airport via Hunts Cross as the link from north to east has been built over.

Going south towards the Airport from east of Halewood would be difficult as the line is on a high embankment and getting the line down and round to the south would be less easy. If you were going to connect that line to the Airport, I would say a better option would be to tunnel to the south just short of Hunts Cross, with a station under Hunts Cross crossroads (perhaps with a walkway underground to the existing station from the north end of the platform) and then continue in tunnel under the West Coast mainline under Woodend Avenue, and then either tunnel or cut and cover under Western Avenue to a station at the end of Western Avenue. That station could be sited in such a way as the south end of the platform is by the airport terminal and the north end is on Western Avenue. The journey would probably be too short for an intermediate station, but a possibility might be at Speke Boulevard.

Speke Airport is not a major international hub like Ringway; it is only served by a handful of airlines, most of which are low cost carriers. It isn't worth building a dedicated rail line to serve it, particularly as there is no obvious route.

The only passenger rail developments that are worth doing in Merseyside and neighbouring areas are the following:

1. Short DC electrified extensions from Hunt's Cross to Gateacre, Kirkby to Skelmersdale and Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge.
2. Diversion of the Wigan-Kirkby and Preston-Ormskirk diesel services to Skelmersdale and Burscough Bridge respectively.
3. 25kV AC Electrification of the CLC line via Warrington Central
4. Reinstatement of the Halton curve to permit through trains from Liverpool (& LPL S Parkway) to Chester and beyond (already in progress).

 

[Bevan Price]

Christ, you're going back a bit. It may just get the Liverpool services which would mean changing at Birchwood (or Warrington Central for longer distance services). This may not be ideal for someone going to Urmston or wherever but it would depend on both the Merseyrail frequency and that of the faster trains. That said, I wasn't proposing anything to terminate at Birchwood from the east so there would be nothing stopping anything from theoretically calling at Birchwood, if it was deemed necessary. Indeed, it could turn out to be desirable when timetabling some semi-fasts between the stoppers.

Deviating from the main topic. but as Birchwood has been mentioned - you have been able to park here for free since the station opened. Not for much longer - be warned - the ripoff merchants running Warrington Council propose to make you pay £2 per day - all day, 7 days a week.

 

[frodshamfella]

Speke Airport is not a major international hub like Ringway; it is only served by a handful of airlines, most of which are low cost carriers. It isn't worth building a dedicated rail line to serve it, particularly as there is no obvious route.

The only passenger rail developments that are worth doing in Merseyside and neighbouring areas are the following:

1. Short DC electrified extensions from Hunt's Cross to Gateacre, Kirkby to Skelmersdale and Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge.
2. Diversion of the Wigan-Kirkby and Preston-Ormskirk diesel services to Skelmersdale and Burscough Bridge respectively.
3. 25kV AC Electrification of the CLC line via Warrington Central
4. Reinstatement of the Halton curve to permit through trains from Liverpool (& LPL S Parkway) to Chester and beyond (already in progress).

It's not a hub like Manchester however it is a busy regional airport and has grown significantly in recent years. A fixed link would certainly be desirable for the future given air travel trends. We should plan ahead in the UK, unfortunately this rarely happens, look how long the London Airport debate has gone on!

 

[mr_jrt]

If the line to Gateacre was reopened further north, you could only connect Gateacre indirectly with the Airport via Hunts Cross as the link from north to east has been built over.

"Built over" is relative... a quick gander at Google maps shows 3-5 buildings on the curve at two specific points at the end of housing closes. Given the massive costs of any rail link I would imagine that purchasing and demolishing those would be (relatively) small change, helped by the fact it wouldn't isolate any properties from road access.

 

[Gareth]

It's not a hub like Manchester however it is a busy regional airport and has grown significantly in recent years. A fixed link would certainly be desirable for the future given air travel trends. We should plan ahead in the UK, unfortunately this rarely happens, look how long the London Airport debate has gone on!

Even Manchester isn't a 'hub' by the technical definition. "Coz Manchester" is not a scientific argument and wouldn't be used for airports smaller than Liverpool in other parts of the country. The only reason there is no 'obvious' route is because there are several different ways you could theoretically do it - which vary in cost and difficulty. Some people don't want a link to Liverpool Airport on principle, for whatever political reasons may be behind it. Even if you could make a business case where it would work with just local traffic they'd still oppose. Maybe we could do the tram-train idea but make sure any Speke stops aren't too close to the airport to upset anyone.

 

[Chester1]

Even Manchester isn't a 'hub' by the technical definition. "Coz Manchester" is not a scientific argument and wouldn't be used for airports smaller than Liverpool in other parts of the country. The only reason there is no 'obvious' route is because there are several different ways you could theoretically do it - which vary in cost and difficulty. Some people don't want a link to Liverpool Airport on principle, for whatever political reasons may be behind it. Even if you could make a business case where it would work with just local traffic they'd still oppose. Maybe we could do the tram-train idea but make sure any Speke stops aren't too close to the airport to upset anyone.

Its not a matter of people opposing it in any circumstances, it is simply because every proposal either by local government or on this site has had a poor business case. Manchester Airport's link was built across fields, not through a series of industrial and retail units and serves a larger airport with a larger number of possible rail passengers and is a natural terminus for trains going through Oxford Road and Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14. If an airport link for Liverpool gets a good BCR I will support it but I will be surprised if this happens in the next several years or more.

 

[Gareth]

How do you know what the business case is? Have there been high level studies on all the ideas mentioned here?

And whether it applies to you or not, there are some people who find it weird and a bit 'upstarty' that unimportant Liverpool has the cheek to have an airport at all.

 

[ivanhoe]

Even Manchester isn't a 'hub' by the technical definition. "Coz Manchester" is not a scientific argument and wouldn't be used for airports smaller than Liverpool in other parts of the country. The only reason there is no 'obvious' route is because there are several different ways you could theoretically do it - which vary in cost and difficulty. Some people don't want a link to Liverpool Airport on principle, for whatever political reasons may be behind it. Even if you could make a business case where it would work with just local traffic they'd still oppose. Maybe we could do the tram-train idea but make sure any Speke stops aren't too close to the airport to upset anyone.

I'd rather a tram train concentrate on Speke, Estuary Park and Garston Gareth. I really don't agree that Speke Airport is suffering because of its lack of link. Well served by buses like the 81, 89, 82A,86A,89 and 80A which cover significant parts of the City and areas in Sefton and Knowsley.Indeed, if I was Rotherham, I'd try and get Merseytram going again, this time ensuring that the lines are part regenerative and part modal shift from cars and indeed buses.

 

[Gareth]

So the buses argument again. I've already spoke at length on that one.

No one said the airport was 'suffering'. Saying a place isn't 'suffering' isn't a valid argument for saying it doesn't need improved transport provision.

A tram-train that took in Speke, the Estuary Park and Garston would have to make a tenaciously deliberate effort to avoid the airport. It would be a farce but it's interesting how that would be more politically palatable for some.