Merseyside: New stations planned

[PR1Berske]

A new thread has been started about a potential Cheshire Oaks railway station ( link: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142504 )

It's all happening with Merseyrail!

 

[185]

No chance of any AC units on Merseyrail unless the pantograph is removed, as the current 507/508s which are DC, just about fit in the tunnels & that includes the link as well as the loop.

I don't know, I'm sure Stadler or one of the builders could produce an engineered solution. Gonna be a low ceiling somewhere :P

 

[snowball]

How much does the pan of a Class 313 when down stick out above the roofline? Aren't 313s the same profile as 507s/8s?

 

[edwin_m]

I don't know, I'm sure Stadler or one of the builders could produce an engineered solution. Gonna be a low ceiling somewhere :P

The Stadler units are supposed to include future provision for AC operation, so that's got to include a means of adding a pantograph that is in gauge in the tunnels.

 

[Camden]

I believe that trains can already operate in the tunnels with a lowered pantograph. The bodies of the new Stadler trains will be lower anyway and I expect this has already been factored.

 

[Dixie]

I believe that trains can already operate in the tunnels with a lowered pantograph. The bodies of the new Stadler trains will be lower anyway and I expect this has already been factored.

That goes without saying. Any extensions to Merseyrail would probably be 25KV AC overhead, except, perhaps, any future tunnel from Central to Edge Hill via the Wapping Tunnel.

 

[UrbanWorld]

Merseytravel have been suggesting for decades that the Wrexham to Bidston, Birkenhead line (Borderlands Line) to be integrated into Merseyrail running into the electrified 3rd rail underground sections in Birkenhead and Liverpool.

The slow 27 miles long Borderlands Line to electrify is an expensive item for a one hour service. The frequencies should increase as usage increases. Battery trains are being assessed for this line according to Network Rail, which lend itself nicely for this technology. Trains can use a 3rd rail pickup on the electrified underground sections from Bidston into Liverpool simultaneously recharging the on-board batteries. Maybe the odd station on the unelectrified section could give the odd charge.

The Japanese have battery trains in service right now tha run on electrified and un-electrified track. The new light Stadler Merseyrail fleet is capable of being converted to battery power & 3rd rail I recall reading. Mark Carne the head of Network Rail is now seriously suggesting battery trains are used on unelectrified lines as a cost effective method, the Borderlands Line is the first obvious candidate as it will extended the line into Liverpool's city centre and maybe beyond increasing passenger use.

 

[Arcadia77]

Interesting article on the Wirral Globe site about a potential new station at Town Meadow... you'd think the Rail Minister might know which schemes are eligible for that funding though!

Not sure how high this would be on Merseytravel's priority for stations anyway and how ideal the site location is.

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1...station_between_Moreton_and_Meols/?ref=twtrec

Rail minister backs call for new train station between Moreton and Meols

THE campaign for a new train station to be built between Moreton and Meols has been backed by a government minister.

Paul Maynard MP, under secretary of state for transport, met councillors at the site of the proposed Town Meadow Station in Moreton after it emerged Wirral Council and Merseytravel had decided not to bid for a share of a new, £20 million fund to pay for new stations.

Councillors claim the new station - which would be known as Town Meadow - has been in the pipeline for more than 40 years.

If opened, the station would sit between Meols and Moreton stations and serve residents living in the Millhouse Lane and Lingham area of the town, reducing traffic from the estate to other stations at peak hours at Moreton Cross.

A recent survey found hundreds of people were in support of the idea.

Rail Minister, Paul Maynard MP, said: “Having visited the area and seen the number of houses nearby, it’s clear that a station at this location would be well-used.

“I understand Merseytravel have already secured the land and I would urge them to make progress on this long-awaited station.

“The £20 million new stations fund I announced last year has proved really popular with councils and transport authorities and I would hope to see a bid for this station in future”.

Conservative councillor for Moreton West & Saughall Massie Bruce Berry said: “We know there is demand for a new station at Town Meadow. Merseytravel have even bought the land for the station. The problem was the cost of construction.

“That’s why it’s really disappointing that Wirral Council and Merseytravel didn’t submit a bid to the Department for Transport when there was money available.

“We can only hope that, should a further fund be made available, we will see a bid to build Town Meadow Station.”

An independent survey commissioned by Merseytravel in 2010 revealed overwhelming support for Town Meadow. But the idea was scrapped.

A Merseytravel spokesperson said: "To qualify to bid for the recent new stations fund, plans had to be progressed to a certain formal stage in development where a significant amount of design work had been undertaken.

"Whilst we do own the land at Town Meadow Lane and it has been identified as a possible station, plans are not advanced enough for us to bid at this stage.

"Building a station at Town Meadow Lane would likely cost more than half the amount available from the new stations fund so even if we had we been able to bid, we would need to have the majority of funding in place already as the £20 million is expected to be shared amongst a number of projects across the country.

"Should a future fund be made available, and if we are in a position to, we would of course consider bidding for Town Meadow Lane".

The Globe has contacted Wirral Council for a response.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Merseytravel have been suggesting for decades that the Wrexham to Bidston, Birkenhead line (Borderlands Line) to be integrated into Merseyrail running into the electrified 3rd rail underground sections in Birkenhead and Liverpool.

How much capacity is there in the loop around Liverpool for additional trains?

 

[507021]

How much capacity is there in the loop around Liverpool for additional trains?

Future services on the Borderlands Line could be terminated at platform 1 of Birkenhead North, which is currently unused.

 

[me123]

Merseytravel have been suggesting for decades that the Wrexham to Bidston, Birkenhead line (Borderlands Line) to be integrated into Merseyrail running into the electrified 3rd rail underground sections in Birkenhead and Liverpool.

The slow 27 miles long Borderlands Line to electrify is an expensive item for a one hour service. The frequencies should increase as usage increases. Battery trains are being assessed for this line according to Network Rail, which lend itself nicely for this technology. Trains can use a 3rd rail pickup on the electrified underground sections from Bidston into Liverpool simultaneously recharging the on-board batteries. Maybe the odd station on the unelectrified section could give the odd charge.

The Japanese have battery trains in service right now tha run on electrified and un-electrified track. The new light Stadler Merseyrail fleet is capable of being converted to battery power & 3rd rail I recall reading. Mark Carne the head of Network Rail is now seriously suggesting battery trains are used on unelectrified lines as a cost effective method, the Borderlands Line is the first obvious candidate as it will extended the line into Liverpool's city centre and maybe beyond increasing passenger use.

If the trains actually went to Liverpool (or even just Birkenhead) I bet you'd see higher usage figures, potentially justifying a half hourly service. Changing at Shotton would be a much better option for those of us from North Wales too if there was a reasonable service level. My attempts to use the Borderlands Line always fail miserably.

 

[Ianno87]

Future services on the Borderlands Line could be terminated at platform 1 of Birkenhead North, which is currently unused.

Unless some of the intermediate stations were missed out, that would require an extra unit for virtually no benefit to passengers (who would still need to change to reach Liverpool, albeit into 8tph rather than 4tph)

 

[me123]

Connecting onto 8tph is much better, and Birkenhead is a big enough destination that surely some people must want to go there? Going around the loop would obviously be preferable, but of course there's a natural limit as to how much traffic can go that way.

 

[Statto]

Unless some of the intermediate stations were missed out, that would require an extra unit for virtually no benefit to passengers (who would still need to change to reach Liverpool, albeit into 8tph rather than 4tph)

It would benefit passengers if Borderlines went Birkenhead North, as Bidston is not accessible if you want to arrive/leave the station at street level, Birkenhead North is.

 

[Polarbear]

Of course, the Borderlands services used to terminate at Birkenhead North in BR days, before the service was cut back to Bidston to save a train set/crew.

Whilst desirable to extend the service, (8 trains per hour connecting to Liverpool and step free access being two points in Birkenhead North's favour), it won't happen unless part or all of the line is electrified, or a skip-stop timetable is adopted.

Not thought this out as regards timings, but I'm wondering if you could run a service where the trains from Wrexham run fast to Bidston, then run back as far as Shotton, stopping at Upton, Heswall &Neston stations?

Either that, or have alternate train running semi-fast, calling at (say) Neston, Shotton, and selected stations to Wrexham.

 

[me123]

Is there scope for joining and dividing trains at Bidston? Run the West Kirby trains as far as Bidston as 6 carriages, with the front 3 going to West Kirby and the rear three off to Wrexham. There's "only" 4tph on that section, so a join and divide for one or two of those trains won't be too obstructive.

 

[Gareth]

Of course, the Borderlands services used to terminate at Birkenhead North in BR days, before the service was cut back to Bidston to save a train set/crew.

Whilst desirable to extend the service, (8 trains per hour connecting to Liverpool and step free access being two points in Birkenhead North's favour), it won't happen unless part or all of the line is electrified, or a skip-stop timetable is adopted.

Not thought this out as regards timings, but I'm wondering if you could run a service where the trains from Wrexham run fast to Bidston, then run back as far as Shotton, stopping at Upton, Heswall &Neston stations?

Either that, or have alternate train running semi-fast, calling at (say) Neston, Shotton, and selected stations to Wrexham.

I recall a recent study by Merseytravel recommended 2tph, one all stations and another missing out Upton, Hope, Penyfford and Cefn-yBedd (and Hawarden Bridge, naturally).

I don't see the line ever being incorporated into Merseyrail (or even electrified for that matter). It's not far off double the distance again from Liverpool as Chester is and I feel that is the outer reaches of the network, considering the type of service and the rolling stock it uses. It would be nice to see it terminate at Birkenhead North again though, as this gives double the frequency into Liverpool as well as direct interchange for Wallasey & New Brighton. Ideally, we'd get an extra track between Bidston and Birkenhead North to allow the services to remain separate as the high frequency of Merseyrail could cause operational issues; which was probably a factor for why it was cut back in the first place. Borderlands trains could use the side platform with the Merseyrail trains using the island. Bidston could be missed out completely to minimise turnaround times.

 

[Gareth]

Is there scope for joining and dividing trains at Bidston? Run the West Kirby trains as far as Bidston as 6 carriages, with the front 3 going to West Kirby and the rear three off to Wrexham. There's "only" 4tph on that section, so a join and divide for one or two of those trains won't be too obstructive.

If we're being serious, then no.

 

[daikilo]

Is there scope for joining and dividing trains at Bidston? Run the West Kirby trains as far as Bidston as 6 carriages, with the front 3 going to West Kirby and the rear three off to Wrexham. There's "only" 4tph on that section, so a join and divide for one or two of those trains won't be too obstructive.

Trackwork yes, signalling not sure, but would you want to impact the schedule of the West Kirby portion.

It is however by far the most attractive of the realistic solutions for passengers to either Borkenhead or Liverpool to/from Upton/Heswall/Neston. Whether it is attractive enough at 2tph is not clear for me.

 

[me123]

Trackwork yes, signalling not sure, but would you want to impact the schedule of the West Kirby portion.

It is however by far the most attractive of the realistic solutions for passengers to either Borkenhead or Liverpool to/from Upton/Heswall/Neston. Whether it is attractive enough at 2tph is not clear for me.

If it was going to happen, I'd hypothesise that the West Kirby trains are the "priority" - i.e. the front train leaving Liverpool (hence it can just uncouple and go) and the rear train going towards Liverpool (it arrives, couples to the train from Wrexham, and heads on its way).

If we're being serious, then no.

Care to expand? Portion running exists in many forms across the country, and even on some busy lines in and around London.

 

[Gareth]

I'm aware portion running exists but adding an hourly or half hourly rural service on to an urban 4tph service would be an operational headache. What if the train's late, does the West Kirby train wait and then potentially knock on other Wirral Line serives? Like I said in my previous post, they're different types of service which need different types of rolling stock. The Borderlands train would probably need a toilet and other mods so different type stock to the metropolitan service the rest of Merseyrail is. Merseyrail's strength is its simplicity - one type of rolling stock* on high frequency all stops** local services.

If we like portion working then lets talk about it as an option on the long distance services that have been centralised on Manchester at the expense of Liverpool in the last 20 years.

* I'm aware that the 507s & 508s are different but the differences are slight

** I'm also aware that Capenhurst is skip-stop but it is an exception to the rule purely for operational reasons.

 

[Roast Veg]

Not to mention the new stock is fixed formation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to mention the new stock is fixed formation.

It can be doubled up.

 

[Chester1]

It can be doubled up.

Yes, they are four carriages which causes confusion. They appear to be slightly too long to be doubled up but there will be no end door in the end carriages. This means that in 8 car formation the rear car will be able to overhang the platform by several metres while still allowing access to the middle door.

In regards to extending Bidston services to Birkenhead North its entirely possible with some infrastructure improvements. The line is 40mph south of Deeside Industrial estate due to low quality track so several minutes could be save by relaying part of this section to 60-75mph. The journey currently takes exactly an hour meaning there is no recovery time and Bidston to Birkenhead North is 2 minutes. Saving 5 minutes of journey time through track upgrades would allow extension to Birkenhead North and provide 3 minutes of recovery time. I think Merseyrail objected to extending services but they could be overruled. There is space for a dedicated platform and extra tracks if funding ever becomes available.

 

[UrbanWorld]

How much capacity is there in the loop around Liverpool for additional trains?

The Mersey rail tunel is running at about 40% of capacity. So quite a lot of capacity.

The existing Wrexham to Bidston service can be extended to Birkenhead North with no problems. It once did terminate there. Extending the terminating station may be pointless as battery trains come about. My point is that battery trains will extend the Borderlands Line and integrate it into Merseyrail giving full access into Liverpool's city centre from Wales and parts of the Wirral, which includes access tom Lime St mainline station with HS2 ad HS3 connections when the come. And of course full access to Wales from Liverpool's city centre.

This is great lever to get direct HS2 trains into Liverpool, as the HS2 station will be better served.

There are a number of electrified branches off electrified lines that will greatly benefit from battery trains. One that comes to mind is the Tywford to Henley branch which is about 4 miles long. A battery/electric hybrid train from Paddington direct to Henley would mean the train would not need a small battery bank for the round trip of around 9 miles on electrified track. The batteries can be under charge when the train is running on overhead wires.