Metrolink coming to Bolton (?) - Shapps

[Trackman]

Slight update from yesterday, just read this on Facebook.
Looks like money down the pan.
That MP is living in cloud cuckoo land, but I think he knows he's on to a loser.

PLANS to bring Metrolink tram services to Bolton have come "one step closer" to being realised, after the Government agreed to fund a viability study into bringing the service to the borough.


The Department of Transport has agreed to a feasibility study on extending to tram service to Bolton town centre.


The plans would involve reviving a disused Bolton to Bury track bed, which advocates hope will better connect Bolton to the rest of Greater Manchester.
Bolton North MP Mark Logan, who has campaigned extensively on this issue, said: "This is very early days, and indeed still in initial consultation, yet it’s a fantastic update that a funding agreement with the Department for Transport to undergo the feasibility stage of the potential to extend Metrolink to Bolton has been finalised.

"This has allowed us to procure consultancy support to generate a report that assesses the feasibility, scope of the project and investment requirements.
"I look forward to engaging with constituents on the findings of the report once finalised.

"And I must stress again that it is early days in understanding the extent to which Metrolink is possible on this route"
Mr Logan launched his campaign to bring Metrolink to Bolton shortly after his election in December 2019 and submitted a bid as part of the Department for Transport’s £500 million Restoring Your Railways Ideas Fund, designed to reinstate axed local services and restore stations.
He said: "The Metrolink tram extension would open up a whole host of economic and social activity, add to the regeneration of Bolton town centre and boost the real estate market, making Bolton an even more attractive place to live.
"The wider region also stands to benefit from increasing connectivity."
Mr Logan says he will update constituents on the latest developments.
Metro Mayor Andy Burnham has previously said that he also supports extending the Metrolink to Bolton, along with Middleton and Stockport as part of a £1billion scheme.

Mr Burnham made the pledge while visiting Westhoughton as part of his re-election campaign last April and has said that he hopes this could see Greater Manchester eventually create a London style intergrated transport system dubbed "The Bee Network."
Speaking during his campaign, he said: "Across the world, the most successful city-regions have one thing in common, an affordable, integrated and accessible transport network.
"People in Greater Manchester have made clear that they won’t settle for second best any longer, that is why on day one of my second term as Mayor I’m vowing to accelerate the delivery of a world-class transport network for our city-region and its people.
"It is absolutely critical to our future economic and social prosperity."

 

[Purple Orange]

Slight update from yesterday, just read this on Facebook.
Looks like money down the pan.
That MP is living in cloud cuckoo land, but I think he knows he's on to a loser.

I’m not sure why it would be money down the pan. Bolton to Victoria via Bury is a 15 mile line and can provide better connectivity to the communities along that line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I’m not sure why it would be money down the pan. Bolton to Victoria via Bury is a 15 mile line and can provide better connectivity to the communities along that line.

If that fact was known at the time of closure, then why was it closed? Or was it that bus routes were seen as a better option at that time?

Your final comment is somewhat strange as the Bury to Manchester part of that route you mention has served the communities for eons and I think you are only referring to the Bolton to Bury section.

 

[Purple Orange]

If that fact was known at the time of closure, then why was it closed? Or was it that bus routes were seen as a better option at that time?

Your final comment is somewhat strange as the Bury to Manchester part of that route you mention has served the communities for eons and I think you are only referring to the Bolton to Bury section.

Yes Bolton to Bury communities - I should have specified. As for closure back in the day, I don’t think those decisions have a bearing on the decisions made today. The east didsbury line was closed but is a great success now.

Edit: actually the stations on the current line will benefit from connectivity to Bolton too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes Bolton to Bury communities - I should have specified. As for closure back in the day, I don’t think those decisions have a bearing on the decisions made today. The east didsbury line was closed but is a great success now.

Edit: actually the stations on the current line will benefit from connectivity to Bolton too.

Currently, Diamond run the 471 bus service with a 10 minute frequency in the main travel period. Its route is:-
Bolton
Breightmet
Elton
Bury
Heywood
Rochdale,

 

[Purple Orange]

Currently, Diamond run the 471 bus service with a 10 minute frequency in the main travel period. Its route is:-
Bolton
Breightmet
Elton
Bury
Heywood
Rochdale,

Yet teams have greater capacity, greater appeal and it could result in greater uptake of public transport. How many people drive from those areas to Bolton, Bury and central Manchester?

 

[Ianno87]

Yet teams have greater capacity, greater appeal and it could result in greater uptake of public transport. How many people drive from those areas to Bolton, Bury and central Manchester?

Part of the reason why the Metrolink car parks at Whitefield and Radcliffe seem in need of constant expansion - people driving from those areas to catch the tram.

 

[HSTEd]

It's a pity the route from the Bury line to Bolton was obliterated at some point - it appears on some of the early Pic-Vic publicity material.

As I said before, your cheapest option for technically get the Metrolink to Bolton is conversion of the Atherton line.

Your cheapest option for "actually" serving Bolton is probably a deviation or branch of the Atherton line.

Ultimately the Atherton line, as it stands, is almost useless as a serious public transport system - which is why most of the stations have pretty lacklustre passenger numbers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's a pity the route from the Bury line to Bolton was obliterated at some point - it appears on some of the early Pic-Vic publicity material.

As I said before, your cheapest option for technically get the Metrolink to Bolton is conversion of the Atherton line.

Your cheapest option for "actually" serving Bolton is probably a deviation or branch of the Atherton line.

Ultimately the Atherton line, as it stands, is almost useless as a serious public transport system - which is why most of the stations have pretty lacklustre passenger numbers.

On the Atherton line, two of their stations recently had their original platform canopies totally refurbished at quite a cost. One good improvement was the anti-bird-perch netting that was fitted to the roof insides.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Actually I think the home working issue is quite relevant to the topic.

@Peter Lanky has it right.

GM Strategy documents for a long time have called Manchester City Centre "the Regional Centre" and used a plethora of disparaging names for the Town centres surrounding it, such as "District Services Hub" (which is one phrase I saw recently in, I think it was the GM Spatial Plan). It is a political decision to treat the whole of Greater Manchester in the same way they'd treat a small town somewhere, in the way that Bath and North East Somerset Council would plan for Bath being "it" and throw the odd GP surgery and petrol station to the outlying villages. Even calling it the "Bee" network, after a symbol of the City of Manchester itself (and of no relevance to e.g. Rochdale or Altrincham) reflects that.

So bringing Metrolink to Bolton (or Wigan or Leigh or Stockport) is self-evidently a manifestation of a political plan to concentrate resources in the City Centre. Take that away, and you're left with a solution looking for a problem.

Metrolink mark 1 was, as is well known, the plan "b" (or perhaps "c" or "d") for the cancellation of the Picc-Vic tunnel. Ashton, Salford Quays and the Airport extension (to a point) allowed new corridors improved public transport links. Trafford Centre I presume is the same, but I've no idea how well used it is (or will be). Rochdale / Oldham I'm not sure what benefit is achieved that justifies the expense.

But forcing Metrolink to other areas "just because" is ludicrous in my view. Why should Metrolink go to Stockport? Who is going to use the service, and what for, given the multitude of buses and trains (some that take as little as *eight* minutes!) that already exist?

Ditto Bolton.

Double ditto Wigan / Atherton.

Every penny that would be spent on a Bolton Metrolink extension could be more usefully used providing connectivity elsewhere.

Bolton to Bury is very slow on the bus, a quick tram through to Bury would be very useful. Even better case with Bury to Rochdale, because the track is already there - the ELR can still have Bury to Rawtenstall. Stockport to Alty and Stalybridge would be relatively easy to deliver as tram train schemes - only an hourly Chester via Alty Northern service I think to deal with most of the way, plus the latter line is extremely underutilized. The latter also has the potential to serve Ashton, taking a lot of passengers again off a slow bus and Denton has huge potential to be a great parkway tram stop for the eastern M60 to avoid expensive parking in Stockport/Ashton/Stalybridge and maybe some who would drive into Central Mcr with a quick change in Ashton/Stockport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bolton to Bury is very slow on the bus, a quick tram through to Bury would be very useful.

That totally ignores all the people who make short journeys from one bus stop to another bus stop along intermediate parts of that Bolton to Bury route.

Look at the example of the existing tram route between Bury and Radcliffe, which does not assist bus travellers in the many bus stops between those two tram stops.

 

[daodao]

Bolton to Bury is very slow on the bus, a quick tram through to Bury would be very useful. Even better case with Bury to Rochdale, because the track is already there - the ELR can still have Bury to Rawtenstall. Stockport to Alty and Stalybridge would be relatively easy to deliver as tram train schemes - only an hourly Chester via Alty Northern service I think to deal with most of the way, plus the latter line is extremely underutilized. The latter also has the potential to serve Ashton, taking a lot of passengers again off a slow bus and Denton has huge potential to be a great parkway tram stop for the eastern M60 to avoid expensive parking in Stockport/Ashton/Stalybridge and maybe some who would drive into Central Mcr with a quick change in Ashton/Stockport.

There is a political problem in that the boroughs of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport contribute to the funding of Metrolink, but it doesn't serve these boroughs. Conversion of the Atherton line and that via Reddish to Rose Hill would rectify this issue and also be worthwhile extensions of Metrolink, providing a more frequent electricified rail service from central Manchester to the locations served by these lines. Heavy rail services cannot effectively be replaced by Metrolink as the main rail-based way to travel to the town centres of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport from central Manchester.

 

[Ianno87]

That totally ignores all the people who make short journeys from one bus stop to another bus stop along intermediate parts of that Bolton to Bury route.

Look at the example of the existing tram route between Bury and Radcliffe, which does not assist bus travellers in the many bus stops between those two tram stops.

The parallel bus route would still be there.

There is a political problem in that the boroughs of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport contribute to the funding of Metrolink, but it doesn't serve these boroughs. Conversion of the Atherton line and that via Reddish to Rose Hill would rectify this issue and also be worthwhile extensions of Metrolink, providing a more frequent electricified rail service from central Manchester to the locations served by these lines. Heavy rail services cannot effectively be replaced by Metrolink as the main rail-based way to travel to the town centres of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport from central Manchester.

Although the "other" Borough get compensatory funding - e.g. the new Bolton bus station was funded via this means.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The parallel bus route would still be there.

Perhaps I have been on too many website discussions in past years, especially on SkyScraper City where a dedicated afficionado of the Manchester Metrolink system usually surfaces in a thread discussion to remonstrate with those other thread contributors and insists that bus passengers in this region have bus stops too close to each other and the people should be expected to walk the extra distance from tram stop to tram stop. Of course, that being like the proverbial red flag to a bull, postings then ensue concerning elderly people at any time of the year, non-car owners who carry home weekly shopping in many bags, the "delights" of walking through torrential rainstorms, trudging through slushy snow, et al.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps I have been on too many website discussions in past years, especially on SkyScraper City where a dedicated afficionado of the Manchester Metrolink system usually surfaces in a thread discussion to remonstrate with those other thread contributors and insists that bus passengers in this region have bus stops too close to each other and the people should be expected to walk the extra distance from tram stop to tram stop. Of course, that being like the proverbial red flag to a bull, postings then ensue concerning elderly people at any time of the year, non-car owners who carry home weekly shopping in many bags, the "delights" of walking through torrential rainstorms, trudging through slushy snow, et al.

It is true, though, that in countries with high quality bus operations (and high usage) like Germany and the Netherlands, bus stops are much further apart than here. In the UK 200m or even less is common, over there 500m or more is quite usual.

The effect is much faster operation, which will increase usage.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is true, though, that in countries with high quality bus operations (and high usage) like Germany and the Netherlands, bus stops are much further apart than here. In the UK 200m or even less is common, over there 500m or more is quite usual.

The effect is much faster operation, which will increase usage.

Which begs the question...."Are the bus services and their bus stops there for the benefit of the travelling public or for purely operational benefit?"

 

[edwin_m]

Which begs the question...."Are the bus services and their bus stops there for the benefit of the travelling public or for purely operational benefit?"

The travelling public benefits either way, but it's probably different members of the public.

If there's a faster tram service available then this tradeoff is less necessary - it's easier to provide a bus service purely for local needs if it's not also trying to cater for longer-distance journeys. Although of course the bus probably then has fewer passengers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The travelling public benefits either way, but it's probably different members of the public.

If there's a faster tram service available then this tradeoff is less necessary - it's easier to provide a bus service purely for local needs if it's not also trying to cater for longer-distance journeys. Although of course the bus probably then has fewer passengers.

I did note what @Bletchleyite said a few postings ago about British bus stops being on average 200m or less apart compared with those in Germany and the Netherlands being an average distance of 500m apart. The travelling public of Britain have had over a century usage of conveniently spaced bus stops to serve all local areas, but what do you honestly think would be the reaction of most bus passengers (who do not view matters of transport with the same in-depth knowledge of contributors to this website) if they were suddenly informed that the distance between bus stops was being increased by 150%?

 

[edwin_m]

I did note what @Bletchleyite said a few postings ago about British bus stops being on average 200m or less apart compared with those in Germany and the Netherlands being an average distance of 500m apart. The travelling public of Britain have had over a century usage of conveniently spaced bus stops to serve all local areas, but what do you honestly think would be the reaction of most bus passengers (who do not view matters of transport with the same in-depth knowledge of contributors to this website) if they were suddenly informed that the distance between bus stops was being increased by 150%?

If that's addressed to me, I agree with you that this would be a big issue for many people. But having a tram available may make it less of a problem.

 

[Purple Orange]

So a piece of infrastructure that is to be in addition to the existing public transport network gets a thumbs down from some people because of why exactly? Better conected comunities between Bolton and Bury will be welcome. Ditto with the tram in Stockport. It just sounds like some people just dont like trams becausr they are trams and not trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did note what @Bletchleyite said a few postings ago about British bus stops being on average 200m or less apart compared with those in Germany and the Netherlands being an average distance of 500m apart. The travelling public of Britain have had over a century usage of conveniently spaced bus stops to serve all local areas, but what do you honestly think would be the reaction of most bus passengers (who do not view matters of transport with the same in-depth knowledge of contributors to this website) if they were suddenly informed that the distance between bus stops was being increased by 150%?

Is that not basically what happened with the introduction of the Leigh Busway? What have people said about that?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is that not basically what happened with the introduction of the Leigh Busway? What have people said about that?

As one who has travelled very many times on the Leigh to Ellenbrook of the section of the Guided Busway, there are considerable distances between each of the formal stops. Absolutely useless to those who live in the intermediate areas (not my words, but those of a long term resident of such an intermediate area).

 

[Ianno87]

As one who has travelled very many times on the Leigh to Ellenbrook of the section of the Guided Busway, there are considerable distances between each of the formal stops. Absolutely useless to those who live in the intermediate areas (not my words, but those of a long term resident of such an intermediate area).

But the job of the Busway (like it's Cambridgeshire cousin) is to improve reliability and journey times for longer-distance journeys, so yes it should have a relatively long distance between stops - in effect a limited stop bus service on a track.

 

[507020]

There is a political problem in that the boroughs of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport contribute to the funding of Metrolink, but it doesn't serve these boroughs. Conversion of the Atherton line and that via Reddish to Rose Hill would rectify this issue and also be worthwhile extensions of Metrolink, providing a more frequent electricified rail service from central Manchester to the locations served by these lines. Heavy rail services cannot effectively be replaced by Metrolink as the main rail-based way to travel to the town centres of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport from central Manchester.

If you convert the Atherton line, build a street running section through Salford that joins the line beyond Salford Crescent, allowing the closure of Windsor Bridge North Junction. Then quadruple from Crow Nest Junction to the former Hindley Junction and run on the trackbed of the Pemberton Loop and then into Wigan town centre via Westwood Way and then along the streets. Then build branches from Atherton to Leigh via Bolton Road, Mealhouse Lane, Wigan Road and Atherleigh Way (the former trackbed of the Bolton and Leigh Railway) and from Walkden to Bolton via the disused trackbed of the Manchester and Bolton Railway. Then you kill 3 birds with 1 stone, or tram if you will, the birds being those of Wigan, Bolton and Leigh. For the GCR lines, Romiley poses more of a problem unless you want another Navigation Road or propose to abandon services from Manchester to Sheffield or send them all via Hazel Grove.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you convert the Atherton line, build a street running section through Salford that joins the line beyond Salford Crescent, allowing the closure of Windsor Bridge North Junction. Then quadruple from Crow Nest Junction to the former Hindley Junction and run on the trackbed of the Pemberton Loop and then into Wigan town centre via Westwood Way and then along the streets. Then build branches from Atherton to Leigh via Bolton Road, Mealhouse Lane, Wigan Road and Atherleigh Way (the former trackbed of the Bolton and Leigh Railway) and from Walkden to Bolton via the disused trackbed of the Manchester and Bolton Railway. Then you kill 3 birds with 1 stone, or tram if you will, the birds being those of Wigan, Bolton and Leigh. For the GCR lines, Romiley poses more of a problem unless you want another Navigation Road or propose to abandon services from Manchester to Sheffield or send them all via Hazel Grove.

Gosh, I am glad that I am not the one in finance who has to cost this particular wish-list out...

 

[AlastairFraser]

That totally ignores all the people who make short journeys from one bus stop to another bus stop along intermediate parts of that Bolton to Bury route.

Look at the example of the existing tram route between Bury and Radcliffe, which does not assist bus travellers in the many bus stops between those two tram stops.

There are several bus routes along the corridor, they could take one out and keep the others - the 135 between Bury and Manchester paralleling the route is still there, isn't it?

There is a political problem in that the boroughs of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport contribute to the funding of Metrolink, but it doesn't serve these boroughs. Conversion of the Atherton line and that via Reddish to Rose Hill would rectify this issue and also be worthwhile extensions of Metrolink, providing a more frequent electricified rail service from central Manchester to the locations served by these lines. Heavy rail services cannot effectively be replaced by Metrolink as the main rail-based way to travel to the town centres of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport from central Manchester.

Stockport is a easy and useful extension from East Didsbury, which is on the drawing board right now.
Marple Rose Hill (and potentially beyond to Macc) should be converted as a tram train line along with Hayfield via New Mills Central/Glossop when/if a proposed tram train tunnel is built through Central Mcr - putting them into Piccadilly serves no purpose, it still provides those conflicts that existed before.

As other posters have said, the Atherton line is functionally useless for the accessing great majority of Bolton, Bolton to Bury would be much easier to implement as the first piece in an orbital Metrolink line compared to Bolton to Cadishead, which is where'd you'd have to head next.
The Atherton line plus conversation of the Leigh Busway should also really only be done as part of the tram train tunnel scheme I mentioned above, as sticking it back on to the NR network at Salford Crescent or the tram network in the city centre serves absolutely no purpose - the city tram network is close to capacity anyway, so would require costly additional upgrades.

 

[Chester1]

But the job of the Busway (like it's Cambridgeshire cousin) is to improve reliability and journey times for longer-distance journeys, so yes it should have a relatively long distance between stops - in effect a limited stop bus service on a track.

It met its passenger estimates before the pandemic started which indicates it was the right approach. Journeys to the city centre during the peak are at the limit of viability, without any extra stops.

 

[daodao]

Bolton to Bury currently has 4 buses an hour, some of them double decker and so would carry about the same as a tram. The current road between Bolton and Bury is permanently rammed, causing big delays to the bus service - especially at the Bolton end.
A lot of that traffic drives because of the speed of bus services. With the big car parks there are at either end in Bury/Bolton, a lot of the traffic would happily take a tram.
Remember this would just be one of the stages in an orbital Metrolink. Bury to Rochdale could be easily reopened as the next park, then you start creaming off Bolton/Bury to Heywood/Rochdale journeys off the M60.
Especially as there are huge business parks next to the ELR in Heywood, which are very poorly served by the bus.

There is little demand for longer orbital journeys, e.g. Bolton to Rochdale or Bury to Oldham, and there are adequate bus services for the moderate ridership between adjacent towns. Metrolink's primary function is to provide high capacity electrified rail transport to/from the city centre, and as there is already a good fast train service from Bolton town centre to all stations in central Manchester, there is no need for Metrolink to serve Bolton town centre.

 

[Ianno87]

There is little demand for longer orbital journeys, e.g. Bolton to Rochdale or Bury to Oldham, and there are adequate bus services for the moderate ridership between adjacent towns. Metrolink's primary function is to provide high capacity electrified rail transport to/from the city centre, and as there is already a good fast train service from Bolton town centre to all stations in central Manchester, there is no need for Metrolink to serve Bolton town centre.

Any Metrolink to Bolton would be about giving areas such as Breightmet a link to Central Manchester. I agree, it would not be about linking Bolton and Manchester, and any orbital journeys would be a side consequence.

 

[daodao]

Any Metrolink to Bolton would be about giving areas such as Breightmet a link to Central Manchester. I agree, it would not be about linking Bolton and Manchester, and any orbital journeys would be a side consequence.

The population east of Bolton town centre (including Breightmet) but west of Bury/Radcliffe is too small and scattered to justify a Metrolink extension.