Metrolink: Concerns regarding single line working St Peters Square

[TOCDriver]

Was making my way up to Piccadilly today from Victoria on the Link and was privy to a conversation betweem two tram drivers bemoaning the lack of training on the new single line working at St Peters Square and how dangerous they thought it was in its current state. Find that hard to believe given the distance and the M5000's ability to stop.

Any current tram man care to shed light on current politics please? One of these drivers seemed quite angry about it and he was going to email somebody senior about it, such was his concern!

 

[507 001]

No Comment, other than I don't see the problem....

 

[edwin_m]

Is the working arrangement any different from that at Victoria last year, when they used a large wooden object as a single line token?

 

[kjhskj75]

Is the working arrangement any different from that at Victoria last year, when they used a large wooden object as a single line token?

They seem to be sending trams through in batches. At one point I saw a queue of trams waiting in Mosley Street almost as far back as Piccadilly Gardens.

So presumably something for complicated than a simple token is in use.

There is a booth with a bloke in it at the Mosley St. end, and I presume another at the other, presumably there is some communication between them.

 

[Bungle965]

They seem to be sending trams through in batches. At one point I saw a queue of trams waiting in Mosley Street almost as far back as Piccadilly Gardens.

So presumably something for complicated than a simple token is in use.

There is a booth with a bloke in it at the Mosley St. end, and I presume another at the other, presumably there is some communication between them.

I also saw the trams backing up, they sit there with there hazard lights on while they wait to go though.
Sam

 

[cool110]

If they're doing the same as with Victoria then it's staff and ticket but with the "tickets" being verbal, (the staff is presented to the driver but they don't take it if there's another tram following).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I also saw the trams backing up, they sit there with there hazard lights on while they wait to go though.

For what period of time is this method of operation expected to continue?

 

[Clip]

Was making my way up to Piccadilly today from Victoria on the Link and was privy to a conversation betweem two tram drivers bemoaning the lack of training on the new single line working at St Peters Square and how dangerous they thought it was in its current state. Find that hard to believe given the distance and the M5000's ability to stop.

Any current tram man care to shed light on current politics please? One of these drivers seemed quite angry about it and he was going to email somebody senior about it, such was his concern!

What did they say was so dangerous about it then?

 

[edwin_m]

For what period of time is this method of operation expected to continue?

For nearly a year, after which there will be another total blockade for several weeks while the tracks go into their final positions. I don't think the top reopens until autumn 2016 though.

 

[talltim]

I have to day as a pedestrian, I find the trams in that area a bit scary, because I can't work out which direction the lines are. The Sheffield trams are a lot simpler in this respect. (Partly due to fewer routes and junctions)

 

[Haydn1971]

One of these drivers seemed quite angry about it and he was going to email somebody senior about it, such was his concern!

Well considering trams work on line of sight and that in Manchester they are bright yellow, I suspect it's just general driver gripes rather than a real issue of danger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well considering trams work on line of sight and that in Manchester they are bright yellow, I suspect it's just general driver gripes rather than a real issue of danger.

Possibly. How long is the single line section? If only a few yards, staff and "ticket" becomes a little less effective, because it is feasible the member of staff dealing with it could become distracted and end up showing the staff to drivers at one end then proceeding to the other end. On the mainline this is unlikely because the section is usually fairly long.

I agree that even if they did an actual collision is unlikely, though.

 

[cool110]

I have to day as a pedestrian, I find the trams in that area a bit scary, because I can't work out which direction the lines are. The Sheffield trams are a lot simpler in this respect. (Partly due to fewer routes and junctions)

But unlike taxis they do actually indicate at junctions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How long is the single line section? If only a few yards, staff and "ticket" becomes a little less effective.

Like you, I too reside outside the borders of the TfGM empire and would be interested in knowing the answer to the total length of this single track section and its starting and finishing points.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But unlike taxis they do actually indicate at junctions.

If you look both ways when crossing and don't stand or walk within the loading gauge while not looking both ways it doesn't matter, anyway

 

[thenorthern]

With Victoria I think there was a a "Stop" sign that was on an arm in front of the tram and the tracks on Ballon Street were fenced off and the only way to cross the tram tracks was at a guarded crossing just outside Victoria station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A question - while clearly not as safe and thus not a likely choice, as trams are road vehicles would traditional traffic lights be legal for this purpose (i.e. effectively time-interval working)?

 

[Jonny]

A question - while clearly not as safe and thus not a likely choice, as trams are road vehicles would traditional traffic lights be legal for this purpose (i.e. effectively time-interval working)?

Not really - in theory, but only with a dispensation. Trams have their own traffic signals, and it is more likely that those would be used. The basic operation is shown on this http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/how-traffic-lights-work-change-operate.html#prettyPhoto (scroll down to "Tram Light Signals").

 

[kjhskj75]

Like you, I too reside outside the borders of the TfGM empire and would be interested in knowing the answer to the total length of this single track section and its starting and finishing points.

It's from the intersection with Nicholas Street (outside the Art Gallery) to the
Manchester Central Convention Complex - about 500m by my guess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's from the intersection with Nicholas Street (outside the Art Gallery) to the
Manchester Central Convention Complex - about 500m by my guess.

Ah, probably far enough that the idea of inadvertently running the staff to the wrong end would seem unlikely. I had an image of only 100m or so across the square itself.

Sounds safe enough, then, combined with the powerful track braking fitted to the trams and the general drive on sight principle.

 

[Greybeard33]

From postings on SSC, it appears that the normal modus operandi is for a "flight" of three double tram sets to proceed through the single line in one direction, then for another flight of three to go through in the other direction. This convoy system gives greater throughput than if individual sets alternated. Normally the controller shows the token to the first two drivers, then hands it to the third to take to his counterpart at the other end.

Apparently under exceptional circumstances an additional tram may be allowed through after the one carrying the token, subject to verbal agreement between the two controllers.

Even if an error occurred, it is difficult to see how this could result in a head-on collision. Sighting lines are good, the speed limit is low and the trams have emergency magnetic track brakes.

 

[Boysteve]

I traveled at the front of tram Eccles bound yesterday. We were the final of the 3 trams in the cohort to go thorough and the driver took the Staff/Token/Key-thingy. After reading the start of this thread I was curious as to the issue. The only problem I witnessed was the impatience of road traffic. With Princess Street and the connection between Oxford Street and Pter Street being down to on lane road drivers get impatient. We were allowed to follow the East Didsbury tram over Princess Street. Firstly the TMS indicator showed 'Stop' for about one second and then changed straight back to 'Proceed' and the tram driver accelerated. A bus then suddenly flashed across in front of us. The bus driver had either jumped a red light or probably more likely had been stuck in traffic between the traffic signal and the tram track. After the East Disbury tram passed the bus driver must have presumed it was safe to go, it wasn't. For the tram driver his line of sight was obscured by the use of 8 foot high railings around the track and other construction paraphernalia. The bus only became visible on crossing the track!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I traveled at the front of tram Eccles bound yesterday. We were the final of the 3 trams in the cohort to go thorough and the driver took the Staff/Token/Key-thingy. After reading the start of this thread I was curious as to the issue. The only problem I witnessed was the impatience of road traffic. With Princess Street and the connection between Oxford Street and Pter Street being down to on lane road drivers get impatient. We were allowed to follow the East Didsbury tram over Princess Street. Firstly the TMS indicator showed 'Stop' for about one second and then changed straight back to 'Proceed' and the tram driver accelerated. A bus then suddenly flashed across in front of us. The bus driver had either jumped a red light or probably more likely had been stuck in traffic between the traffic signal and the tram track. After the East Disbury tram passed the bus driver must have presumed it was safe to go, it wasn't. For the tram driver his line of sight was obscured by the use of 8 foot high railings around the track and other construction paraphernalia. The bus only became visible on crossing the track!

That sounds a very worrying incident, noting what you have said about the driver's line of sight being obscured by 8 foot high railings, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently under exceptional circumstances an additional tram may be allowed through after the one carrying the token, subject to verbal agreement between the two controllers.

That seems poor, and would appear to negate any benefit of the use of the token.

Even if an error occurred, it is difficult to see how this could result in a head-on collision. Sighting lines are good, the speed limit is low and the trams have emergency magnetic track brakes.

This is indeed true, but if you're going to have train staff and "ticket" it doesn't seem sensible to then send a driver through who has not seen the staff.

 

[edwin_m]

The high barriers are clearly a concern and I would expect drivers to be running dead slow in this area. It is also normal for only one tram to be allowed through on a signal phase at a time (in the same direction) so sounds like this has been changed too. However neither of these are directly related to the single line working, where as suggested the slow speed and availability of track brakes should ensure safety and the token is probably more a matter of avoiding the operational chaos that would result if two trams ended up nose-to-nose and one had to back up (shades of Captain Mainwaring).

I'm over there on Wednesday and will take a look.

 

[Altfish]

I walked down most of the single line today, I don't recognise the description of 8' high barriers. Yes, there are barriers, they may well be 8' high bit they are Heras fencing, ie you can see through them.

 

[507 001]

Sight lines aren't too bad.

Staff and ticket working can be withdrawn by the controller in the control room (not the authorised person(s) on the ground, they have no actual authority) and the section controlled by radio authorisation.

 

[martinr1]

Here is the single line working last Tuesday and it looked a pretty robust system to me

https://youtu.be/1YXj9hQyaW4

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My wife and I had visited Hebden Bridge early yesterday and as I wanted to see the new overbridge that links the Deansgate-Castlefield Metrolink stop to Deansgate railway station, we bought Metrolink tickets from Manchester Victoria to Deansgate-Castlefield in the mid-afternoon period and boarded an East Didsbury bound tram. The journey down Moseley Street through the St Peter's Square Metrolink building site to the side of the Midland Hotel seems to be a series of short stop and start journeys, with the same type of lineside cabins where the token was taken and given in the line of single-line running as were once used in the Manchester Victoria to Shudehill section some months ago.

 

[edwin_m]

My wife and I had visited Hebden Bridge early yesterday and as I wanted to see the new overbridge that links the Deansgate-Castlefield Metrolink stop to Deansgate railway station, we bought Metrolink tickets from Manchester Victoria to Deansgate-Castlefield in the mid-afternoon period and boarded an East Didsbury bound tram. The journey down Moseley Street through the St Peter's Square Metrolink building site to the side of the Midland Hotel seems to be a series of short stop and start journeys, with the same type of lineside cabins where the token was taken and given in the line of single-line running as were once used in the Manchester Victoria to Shudehill section some months ago.

It does indeed appear to be the same arrangement.

If not identical the cabins are very similar and the staff looks like the same one. The intermediate stops are due to the two road junctions, which have been reconfigured to have tram signals in both direction but I don't know if they have provided priority for approaching trams as is normally done at permanent road junctions.