MG11 for sitting in First Class with a standard class ticket for 1 one stop

[ExtraDude]

Hello everyone,

I had standard ticket on Great Northern yesterday and I’ve boarded the train at the back, sitting on standard seat. I was going from Alexandra Palace to Hatfield

Just before Potter’s Bar (one stop before my final stop) I went to look for a toilet. I walked from back to front, the whole train and all 3 toilets were out of use. Once I’ve got at the front I wanted to sit somewhere just so I can hold it until I get off

My purpose when I’ve boarded the train was not to sit on first class with an invalid ticket

Ticket inspector checked my ticket while I was sitting in first class, he told me he watched me for a while and I’ve asked if I can buy an upgrade or another ticket. He said my ticket cannot be upgraded because it is an eticket and it is bought from an app

I’ve agreed to pay a penalty fare with no problem at all, but then when the ticket inspector printed the receipt, he’s gotten an MG11 instead.

He asked me if I had penalty fares before and I said yes - but they were all paid on the day of the issue. He didn’t know what happened and I’ve asked him what’s the likely outcome and he said it’s usually settlement

I’ve already emailed the prosecution department to beg for a settlement and to send my apologies

Do you guys think I’ll end up with a criminal conviction in light of my previous penalty fares?

Is it true that e-tickets bought from trainline, trip.com or uber cannot be upgraded?

Thanks

 

[John R]

What were the penalty fares in respect of? That may be relevant.

Could you please attach the MG11, with any identifying features redacted to protect your anonymity.

 

[MrJeeves]

Is it true that e-tickets bought from trainline, trip.com or uber cannot be upgraded?

On-board first class upgrades are at-discretion, and are most widely available on longer distance intercity train operators. On operators without on-board staff, such as Great Northern or Thameslink, there would, be no way to sell these in practice.

You can upgrade any ticket before boarding at a ticket office by paying an "excess", which would be the difference in price between your ticket and a first class ticket for the journey being made.

There is no form of blanket restriction that prevents upgrading an E-Ticket; it's just that there are no on-board upgrades on Great Northern services.

 

[AlterEgo]

What were the previous penalty fares for, and how many have you had, and how long ago were they all? It’s quite unusual to come across someone who has been reported for prosecution who has multiple penalty fares under their name; they tend to make people a lot more careful.

 

[ExtraDude]

The things, the ticket inspector didn’t report me. He wanted to give me a penalty fare, which I was ready to pay as soon as he gave me the reciept

But when he printed, it was an MG11 instead, to which he seemed surprised too

My other penalty fares were for off peak tickets during peak time and an oyster tap in for a segment where oyster travel card isn’t valid (London-Stevenage). I had my ticket from Stevenage to Cambridge and a zone 1-4 monthly oyster travel card with extra credit on for when I travel outside my zones and my mistake was thinking that Stevenage was something like Luton Airport station

I’ve paid all my penalty fares on the same day

What were the previous penalty fares for, and how many have you had, and how long ago were they all? It’s quite unusual to come across someone who has been reported for prosecution who has multiple penalty fares under their name; they tend to make people a lot more careful.

These were 2 last year and one maybe in 2023. I’ve never argued with the inspectors and these mistakes I’ve made were because I didn’t pay attention when I bought off peak or peak time tickets ‍♂️ or paying/tapping a credit card or oyster by mistake

What were the penalty fares in respect of? That may be relevant.

Could you please attach the MG11, with any identifying features redacted to protect your anonymity.

I didn’t receive it yet, all I have is the receipt, here is it

This is the reciept, I don’t have the actual MG11, the inspector said to wait for a letter

On-board first class upgrades are at-discretion, and are most widely available on longer distance intercity train operators. On operators without on-board staff, such as Great Northern or Thameslink, there would, be no way to sell these in practice.

You can upgrade any ticket before boarding at a ticket office by paying an "excess", which would be the difference in price between your ticket and a first class ticket for the journey being made.

There is no form of blanket restriction that prevents upgrading an E-Ticket; it's just that there are no on-board upgrades on Great Northern services.

Ah that’s too bad. The inspector told me he could have upgraded it for me if I had a paper ticket or an e-ticket bought from the great northern website instead

 

[furlong]

My other penalty fares were for off peak tickets during peak time

(There must have been more to those ones, as Penalty Fares aren't supposed to be issued merely for using an off-peak ticket during a peak time.)

Was the 10:58 time of issue on the MG11 wrong? Exactly which train were you actually on?

 

[ExtraDude]

(There must have been more to those ones, as Penalty Fares aren't supposed to be issued merely for using an off-peak ticket during a peak time.)

Was the 10:58 time of issue on the MG11 wrong? Exactly which train were you actually on?

I was on Great Northern

Why would the time be wrong? 10:58 is correct, that’s when the inspector printed this receipt

No, that’s it, I had an off peak ticket during peak time and the inspector in the past simply refused to upgrade when I’ve asked. I never argue with them. That’s one penalty fare

The other two were for tapping with a zone 1-4 monthly oyster travel card from West Hampstead to Radlett and between King’s Cross and Stevenage respectively. Because I’ve been told by the staff at the gates that I can use my card - which meant I can use my BANK card actually. Regardless, I’ve paid my penalty fares very swiftly if that helps with anything

 

[furlong]

Why would the time be wrong? 10:58 is correct, that’s when the inspector printed this receipt

What time did your train arrive at Hatfield? (Was the MG11 issued not at Potters Bar but on the platform?)

(Note that not all trains between your two stations are advertised as having first class, and it wouldn't be an offence on one that isn't. From your description it seems very likely that yours did, but it's important to find it in the timetable and check to make sure.)

No, that’s it, I had an off peak ticket during peak time and the inspector in the past simply refused to upgrade when I’ve asked.

In which case you ought to have done an appeal. If nothing else was wrong you are entitled to pay the difference on the spot. See NRCoT 9.5.1.

9.5Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling;
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

 

[skyhigh]

What time did your train arrive at Hatfield? (Was the PF issued not at Potters Bar but on the platform?)

(Note that not all trains between your two stations are advertised as having first class, and a PF can't be issued on one that isn't. From your description it seems very likely that yours did, but it's important to find it in the timetable and check to make sure.)

It's not a Penalty Fare that has been issued.

 

[ExtraDude]

What time did your train arrive at Hatfield? (Was the PF issued not at Potters Bar but on the platform?)

(Note that not all trains between your two stations are advertised as having first class, and a PF can't be issued on one that isn't. From your description it seems very likely that yours did, but it's important to find it in the timetable and check to make sure.)


In which case you ought to have done an appeal. If nothing else was wrong you are entitled to pay the difference on the spot. See NRCoT 9.5.1.

MG11 was printed on the platform at Hatfield station, after we got off. I don’t know if that means it was issued when it was printed, because it can be that first it’s issued and then printed?

My train arrived at 10:52, how is this changing anything please?


Ah yes, I remember the ticket inspector back then told me to appeal his penalty fare, which seemed odd to me. I’ve appealed twice and both were rejected. I didn’t see the point of him telling me to appeal it. Wish I knew I was entitled to a peak upgrade and I wish that he knew and the fine’s office, or whoever I’ve paid

 

[furlong]

It's not a Penalty Fare that has been issued.

Edited to correct, thanks. (Doesn't change the underlying point, that the train needs to have a '1' marker in the timetable, and there seemed to be no train at the stated location at the stated time.)

 

[ExtraDude]

Ye

Edited to correct, thanks. (Doesn't change the underlying point, that the train needs to have a '1' marker in the timetable, and there seemed to be no train at the stated location at the stated time.)

Yes, I’ve seen that some of the trains had first class tickets and some didn’t. All I can say is that I bought your regular ticket, boarded the train at the back, sat in a regular standard seat. Then I’ve looked for one working toilet and all 3 were out of use and I’ve ended up at the front barely holding it and I’ve sat down in first class for one stop. The inspector didn’t want to hear it and I’ve admitted my mistake … is this likely end up with a criminal conviction on my DBS?

It seems like there’s no ‘first class’ ticket available if I want to book a ticket for the same time this week

Maybe last week Saturday, same time, same train, had first class tickets?

 

[furlong]

Well 1052 confirms it was a train with advertised first class accommodation.

Did the inspector take photos of the notices on the train saying you could only sit there if you were in possession of a first class ticket? Normally they would point to the notices (and take pictures) so they can show they were actually present.

19.
Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.
...
24(4) Notices
No person shall be subject to any penalty for breach of any of the Byelaws by disobeying a notice unless it is proved to the satisfaction of the Court before whom the complaint is laid that the notice referred to in the particular Byelaw was displayed.

For now, you'll just have to wait for the letter and see what they ask.

 

[saismee]

It may be worthwhile for OP to open a new thread about the previous PFN for using an off-peak ticket at peak time. I doubt they could do anything anymore, but someone may be able to help (and it would prevent this thread from being cluttered by it).

 

[ExtraDude]

Well 1052 confirms it was a train with advertised first class accommodation.

Did the inspector take photos of the notices on the train saying you could only sit there if you were in possession of a first class ticket? Normally they would point to the notices (and take pictures) so they can show they were actually present.



For now, you'll just have to wait for the letter and see what they ask.

He didn’t take any photos, but I’ve just checked with Great Northern customer service and they confirmed that the train did have First Class seats

I’ve just been on the phone with Great Northern CS and he confirmed my MG11 is actually for a an invalid ticket in first class and it’s not to do with the previous issues I’ve had

The ticket inspector wouldn’t have been able to issue a penalty fare, therefore

I hope this type of MG11 won’t lead to anything more serious than this and I’ve already emailed the prosecution department to send my apologies and asked for a settlement

Well 1052 confirms it was a train with advertised first class accommodation.

Did the inspector take photos of the notices on the train saying you could only sit there if you were in possession of a first class ticket? Normally they would point to the notices (and take pictures) so they can show they were actually present.



For now, you'll just have to wait for the letter and see what they ask.

Yes, first class

No, no pictures taken

 

[WesternLancer]

He didn’t take any photos, but I’ve just checked with Great Northern customer service and they confirmed that the train did have First Class seats

I’ve just been on the phone with Great Northern CS and he confirmed my MG11 is actually for a an invalid ticket in first class and it’s not to do with the previous issues I’ve had

The ticket inspector wouldn’t have been able to issue a penalty fare, therefore

I hope this type of MG11 won’t lead to anything more serious than this and I’ve already emailed the prosecution department to send my apologies and asked for a settlement


Yes

The general advice on here is not to engage in communication with them until they contact you - this is because the process you are in has the potential to lead to prosecution in the magistrates court so it's best not to contact them in case you incriminate yourself, or tell them something they didn't know inadvertently - that can be used against you.

I'm not trying to unduly frighten you but I would suggest it's best not to contact them, however, given you have done so now, what is done is done. I doubt you have unduly made anything worse.

I also would not engage with Customer Services about this - you will be dealing with the railway companies revenue protection and prosecutions team and I doubt they will be governed by whatever Customer Services might tell you.

The best thing to do now is wait until the Railway company write to you as it's vital to receive that and engage in it - and people here will help you. That may now be a response to what you have recently sent to them (who did you write to / what was the address / e-mail address?), or it may be when they write to you in the way usually happens. If that is GTR (Govia Thameslink Railway - I think Great Northern is a 'brand' of GTR) e-mails to their Prosecutions unit usually receive an automatic reply saying hey are only accepted if they are for information such as notifying a change of address.

You have my sympathy over what happened (and there is a separate issue of them operating a train with no functioning toilets), but for now I suspect it's best you gather the info on this from experts on this forum ready for when you hear back from Great Northern and need to reply to them.

As you will see from other threads people here will offer to check any wording of whatever you want to send to the railway to ensure the text is as good as it can be.

 

[saismee]

Could the non-functioning toilet be used as a mitigating factor (especially if the OP has a medical condition related to this)? Is it possible to say that OP had assumed the toilet was occupied rather than out of order, so they waited nearby until it was available?

 

[WesternLancer]

Could the non-functioning toilet be used as a mitigating factor (especially if the OP has a medical condition related to this)? Is it possible to say that OP had assumed the toilet was occupied rather than out of order, so they waited nearby until it was available?

Personally I think you'd have to know the layout of the train seating and the proximity of Standard Class areas and First Class areas to the last toilet the OP got to and found out of order.

I suspect that the OP is being asked up thread about the exact time of the train so that experts here can identify the type of train used and the status of it's First Class seating etc.

And even then to be able to reply on it the medical condition might need to be evidenced etc.

 

[saismee]

Personally I think you'd have to know the layout of the train seating and the proximity of Standard Class areas and First Class areas to the last toilet the OP got to and found out of order.

I suspect that the OP is being asked up thread about the exact time of the train so that experts here can identify the type of train used and the status of it's First Class seating etc.

And even then to be able to reply on it the medical condition might need to be evidenced etc.

All could be potentially helpful if taken to court, though it certainly seems possible (and preferable) for OP to settle out of court. Another thing to note, I've noticed that GN's first class signage is easy to miss on 387s. I've sat in first class by mistake without even realising it because the seats look and feel almost identical! Though it really all depends on whether the headrest covers were there or not (they weren't when I travelled).

 

[ExtraDude]

Thanks everyone for your supportive replies so far

No serious and current medical condition, but I do suffer from lower back pain and that can be checked with my GP showing multiple appointments in the past on this matter

I tend to accept it’s my fault I’ve sat in first class. The lay out of the train was:

- First class compartment at the very front of the train, almost half a coach. Standard seats on the rest of the train

- 3 toilets on the train, 2 small and one big and still remember clearly that all three had the ‘out of use’ light on. I know because I came from the back of the train - where I boarded and sat - and walked all the way to the front looking for a toilet (where I’ve ended up sitting)

What I’ve wrote in the email

I’ve wrote an email at the advice of a Great Northern staff at King’s Cross and I’ve politely asked in the email for a settlement, I’ve said I’m sorry and that I regret every second of sitting in the first class without a valid ticket

Then I’ve outlined a short background to this, just like I’ve wrote it in my post here

I’ll attach a screenshot of it below

 

[saismee]

@ExtraDude you may want to hide the reference number visible in that image.

 

[ExtraDude]

@ExtraDude you may want to hide the reference number visible in that image.

It’s same reference number as on the MG11 receipt though

 

[saismee]

It’s same reference number as on the MG11 receipt though

You'll probably want to hide that one too!!

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s same reference number as on the MG11 receipt though

Might advisable to obscure that in both cases

 

[ExtraDude]

Might advisable to obscure that in both cases

Yes, I’ve deleted them altogether

Should I get a letter from my GP to show the appointments (2015-2022, I think) I’ve had relating to my back pain? I don’t know how much is helping, it’s chronic pain so I hadn’t had any recent appointments

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, I’ve deleted them altogether

Should I get a letter from my GP to show the appointments (2015-2022, I think) I’ve had relating to my back pain? I don’t know how much is helping, it’s chronic pain so I hadn’t had any recent appointments

I suppose the question to ask about that is if you needed to sit down why did you choose first class? Where there no available seats in standard at all?

GTR will usually settle cases unless they think you are a deliberate and persistent evader. They just want to know you understand what you did wrong and won’t do it again.

 

[ExtraDude]

I suppose the question to ask about that is if you needed to sit down why did you choose first class? Where there no available seats in standard at all?

GTR will usually settle cases unless they think you are a deliberate and persistent evader. They just want to know you understand what you did wrong and won’t do it again.

No I definitely acknowledge my mistake and will grab a settlement with both hands

I sat in first class because it was the nearest available seat, the other standard seats being busy, let’s say 80% taken.

It is very unusual of me, I never sit in first class, I don’t care about it, but I just had this out of the ordinary moment, looking for toilets the whole train, having the urge to go and I felt like I needed to sit down to hold it until I go to a toilet at the train station, which was the next stop

‍♂️ I’m not sure if this sounds hard to believe, probably it would for them, but the cameras can be checked and they will see me sitting on a standard seat at the back at the beginning of the journey and then looking for a toilet until I arrived at the front. I think I went that day an unusual number of times to the toilet and the next day too

This is silly of me and it feels sick to end up with a criminal record

 

[John R]

This is silly of me and it feels sick to end up with a criminal record

Provided you cooperate when written to, apologise, promise not to do it again, and ask very nicely for an out of court settlement, it would be very unusual for GTR to prosecute you, although I suppose there may be a very slightly higher chance given you have had a few penalty fares (one of which was completely wrong anyway, as others have noted, from the information you have given us about it.)

 

[WesternLancer]

No I definitely acknowledge my mistake and will grab a settlement with both hands

I sat in first class because it was the nearest available seat, the other standard seats being busy, let’s say 80% taken.

It is very unusual of me, I never sit in first class, I don’t care about it, but I just had this out of the ordinary moment, looking for toilets the whole train, having the urge to go and I felt like I needed to sit down to hold it until I go to a toilet at the train station, which was the next stop

‍♂️ I’m not sure if this sounds hard to believe, probably it would for them, but the cameras can be checked and they will see me sitting on a standard seat at the back at the beginning of the journey and then looking for a toilet until I arrived at the front. I think I went that day an unusual number of times to the toilet and the next day too

This is silly of me and it feels sick to end up with a criminal record

They won’t bother searching cctv. They have no need to.

And your bad back is of no relevance it seems to
Me as you say there were empty seats in standard.

Not meaning to sound harsh but your focus should be on the apology and the request to settle out of court.

Have they written to you yet? If not wait until they do then get your draft checked here before replying

 

[enyoueffsea]

The story is really implausible to me for a number of reasons.

1. Why pick a seat in first class? Acknowledging that you knew it was first class and it wasn’t an error on that point.

2. When approached by the ticket inspector, why offer to pay for a first class ticket rather than acknowledging your error and moving to a standard seat?

3. You say the ticket inspector said they had been observing you “for a while”, so you must have been sat in the seat for a while rather than what is made out to be a short period?

4. You refer to several other penalty notices yet still make the decision to take a seat in first class? It’s not like you’ve been warned before.

If it sounds unusual to me, it certainly will to the rail company.

This is one for begging for forgiveness, not excuses, and hoping they’re kind enough to offer a settlement. I’ve not seen your proposed reply but you can strip back everything and just apologise and say you’ve learnt your lesson.