Middlesbrough to Edinburgh

[Marton]

I have just been looking at the routeing guide and am puzzled.

As I read it the Routes permitted are maps DA or MT+MG. The first is obvious,the second seems bizarre.

There is no permitted route via the Tyne Valley, yet the EC website allows that.

There is also an easement essentially forbidding the use of MT+MG

700401 Customers travelling from Haymarket or Edinburgh to Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Malton, Seamer or Scarborough in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via Manchester Stations. This easement applies in both directions. ​

What am I not seeing in the Routeing Guide? If I had an Any Permitted ticket and wanted to do a circle Middlesbrough - Edinburgh - Carlisle - Middlesbrough would the EC route print out be enough?

 

[mikeg]

Officially via Manchester is not a permitted route, however if you are able to obtain an itinerary when you book your tickets that shows you going that way it shouldn't be questioned, providing it allows you to do it on one ticket.

Via the Tyne Valley (I take it you mean Hartlepool, Sunderland etc) is the shortest route from what I can work out and you do not have to look in the routeing guide for this. It is therefore a permitted route.

Edit: I got my lines mixed up, you mean via Hexham? it doesn't appear to be permitted by the PDF routeing guide yet electronic sites seem to allow it, including National Rail Enquiries which is the 'definitive' source of information (apparently). Thus for contractual reasons it should be allowed.

You may want to ask ATOC why this reasonable route does not appear in the PDF version of the Routeing Guide when the electronic journey planners clearly allow it and it is a historically valid route. Interestingly, trainscanbecheaper also identifies this as a permitted route via map DA so I suspect it's an error in the PDF file.

 

[bradders1983]

Why would you want to go from Edinburgh to Middlesborough via Manchester anyway? Very odd.

 

[mikeg]

Travelling short on a ticket that permits break of journey? To stop off there?

The current PDF routeing guide is severely broken. It appears to be based on a computer program or the scripts thereof rather than being intended be a human readable document. It's a far cry from the original principles of the Routeing Guide.

Incidentally, why would anyone want to go from Middlesbrough to Carlisle via Manchester? Yet this used to be allowed until a few months ago when the routeing guide was radically changed to the current one with lots of circuitous routes negated by easements. It's basically one big hack which has been adjusted to make it vaguely usable by non-programmers. I don't like it personally, but ATOC have decided and the DfT are too obsessed with closing loopholes to reduce subsidy, instead of being concerned with providing a simple and transparent routeing system that doesn't have many loopholes in the first place!

 

[mildertduck]

Incidentally, why would anyone want to go from Middlesbrough to Carlisle via Manchester?

They wouldn't. However Middlesbrough to Carlisle, stopping short at Manchester used to be a hell of a lot cheaper than an Middlesbrough - Manchester ticket...

 

[fireftrm]

I can see why via Manchester would not be allowed. Why would a route that is travel south, then south west, then north west, then north, then north east, make any sense - with options to travel west, then north, or north, then north again, or even north, west, north east, or west, north, west, north east all existing via Darlington, Newcastle, Carlisle already!
How does MG plus MT allow a Middlesborough to Edinburgh via Tyne Valley? These are different route guides for Manchester to Scotland and Teesside travellers, surely? Bizarre is the word for thinking you can simply chose which guides to join up to suit yourself

 

[John @ home]

How does MG plus MT allow a Middlesborough to Edinburgh via Tyne Valley?

It doesn't.

The National Routeing Guide's Permitted Route Identifier shows that mapped permitted routes from Middlesbrough Group to Edinburgh Group are shown on map DA and on map combination MT+MG.

Map MT allows Middlesbrough Group - Northallerton - York - Leeds Group - Huddersfield Group - Stalybridge - Manchester Group. Map MG allows Manchester Group - Wigan Group - Preston - Lancaster Group - Oxenholme - Carlisle - Carstairs - Edinburgh Group.

Hence there were permitted routes Middlesbrough - Edinburgh via Manchester prior to the introduction of negative Easement 700401 (see post #1).

These are different route guides for Manchester to Scotland and Teesside travellers, surely?

They are not route guides. They are maps to be followed in accordance with the National Routeing Guide's Instructions.

Bizarre is the word for thinking you can simply chose which guides to join up to suit yourself

No-one is suggesting that you can.

 

[fireftrm]

Right thanks, I now have the how to use docs, interesting
Having looked up Scarborough group to London would I be right in reading that you can travel to Kings Cross, St Pancras, or Liverpool Street AY, EY, KY so could go via Sheffield, Ely, or just straight down ECML

 

[John @ home]

Yes. Map AY shows a number of routes permitting Scarborough Group to London Liverpool Street via Ely. Map EY shows a number of routes permitting Scarborough Group to London St Pancras via Loughborough, and map KY shows a number of routes permitting Scarborough Group to London Kings X or Moorgate via Doncaster and Hitchin.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Couldn't Negative Easement 700401 be easily overcome by buying a ticket to/from a station near to Edinburgh that isn't actually Endinburgh or Haymarket?

 

[Cheds]

Such as Edinburgh park?

 

[34D]

Right thanks, I now have the how to use docs, interesting
Having looked up Scarborough group to London would I be right in reading that you can travel to Kings Cross, St Pancras, or Liverpool Street AY, EY, KY so could go via Sheffield, Ely, or just straight down ECML

Yes. Also London Moorgate.

Periodically, this forum offers fares workshops that are free to attend. Well worth keeping an eye out for one.