Middlewich Line re-opening

[Dave Roberts]

I have spent a little time recently reading through some closed threads, some of which made mention of the proposal for a new service from Crewe to Manchester serving a re-opened Middlewich Station.

It may be useful for those who doubt if this is a realistic project to read the consultants report, a link to which is provided on our website.

www.middlewichstation.org.uk

It has taken Network Rail 18 months to even acknowledge the existence of this report and they are now quoting us ever larger sums of money to get the project through to the next stage (GRIP3).

We are confident, however, that the money can be raised, and we have an excellent team on our steering group who are working hard to ensure the success of the scheme, notably experienced officers from Middlewich Town Council, who originally raised the funds for the Railway Consultancy's report.

Incidentally, the use of Sandbach Station as an alternative is not realistic. The vast majority of the potential commuters identified in this report, and previous ones, work in the A556 Altrincham/Manchester corridor and will not want to travel into Manchester to travel out of it again to get to work.

If Sandbach Station was a realistic alternative, people would already be using it.

There are many threads on this forum with ever-lengthening lists of closed lines people would 'like' to see re-opened.

This project is not one of those 'wouldn't it be great if...' ideas.

It is a real and distinct possibility.

All rail re-openings take a long time and a lot of hard work to come to fruition but this one, if you'll pardon the pun, is a lot further down the line than many.

Dave Roberts
Chairman
Middlewich Rail Link Campaign

 

[NJTom]

You're dreaming. Not even half a chance in hell.

 

[northwichcat]

You're dreaming. Not even half a chance in hell.

The cost:benefit ratio for running a Northwich-Middlewich-Crewe services is 1:5 and that's more than double what's required to reopen the line.

I believe the plan's not advancing at present because Cheshire East council don't have funds and they'd be expected to fund the reinstatement of Middlewich station.

 

[Whistler40145]

Dave, please correct me, on Ordnance Survey maps of the Sandbach area a line went off to the left, was it to Macclesfield or Congleton? Does any part of the trackbed exist & could it be a prospective line for reopening?

 

[NJTom]

If it was more than required, it wouldn't even be in question. The reality is that there is no money to do this, and these guys can always find something more important, like preserving the art of basket weaving, to spend the money on.

 

[tbtc]

http://www.middlewichstation.org.uk/Route Map.htm

I can see the potential benefits of this, I think its a decent case, certainly compared to some of the "fanciful" reopenings I've seen proposed.

However, with the economy being what it is and with insufficient stock to cope with existing demand on current services, I can't see new lines as a priority in the next few years...

 

[Bald Rick]

Much more of a chance than most reopenings, and a business case that at face value does warrant further investigation.

For a start the railway is actually there and in use today, so it's a low start up cost. This also makes it a low 'sunk' cost if the venture were to fail. The main problem is finding space in the timetable to get punters where they actually want to go.


I do wonder how many of the more famous (notorious?) reopening campaigns would actually get further and gain credibility if they did share issues. This would get some risk capital behind the case to show potential major funders that they are truly serious about it. If the busiess case is really that good, then there will be nothing to lose?

 

[Dave Roberts]

If it was more than required, it wouldn't even be in question. The reality is that there is no money to do this, and these guys can always find something more important, like preserving the art of basket weaving, to spend the money on.

Obviously you are privy to information which which do not possess. We are always ready to hear from people who know more than we do, so please enlighten us so that we can stop wasting our time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The cost:benefit ratio for running a Northwich-Middlewich-Crewe services is 1:5 and that's more than double what's required to reopen the line.

I believe the plan's not advancing at present because Cheshire East council don't have funds and they'd be expected to fund the reinstatement of Middlewich station.

As you'll see from our website we have persuaded both Cheshire East and Cheshire West councils to include the scheme in their local transport plans.

It is not necessarily the case that Cheshire East would have to fund the station itself. There are various options, all of which will be explored by our steering group, and by Network Rail itself as we advance towards the GRIP3 stage..

Incidentally, the re-opening scheme is being enthusiastically supported by our MP, Fiona Bruce, because she sees potential economic benefits for the whole region, not just the Middlewich area.

 

[merlodlliw]

Network Rail, are a year behind on grip 3 for the Saltney Wrexham,we are all interested in how much this as increased, yet the money is on the table.

It is common now for NR to give a prohibitive cost,Bidston line for example, Dave I will PM you this evening with a few very useful contacts. Incidently Cheshire East & Chester County Council is also involved in the Saltney plan

It is always useful when NR budget, to look at their management fee,and if it is hidden, ask for it, this surprises a lot of people.As a not for profit Org NR appears swathed in statutory thinking and working practices from what I have seen, ill explain my in PM.


BVob

 

[Dave Roberts]

Network Rail, are a year behind on grip 3 for the Saltney Wrexham,we are all interested in how much this as increased, yet the money is on the table.

It is common now for NR to give a prohibitive cost,Bidston line for example, Dave I will PM you this evening with a few very useful contacts.

It is always useful when NR budget, to look at their management fee,and if it is hidden, ask for it, this surprises a lot of people.


BVob

That would be most useful. Many thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You're dreaming. Not even half a chance in hell.

You're not from Middlewich are you? I'm asking because, in the erly days of our campaign, this was the oft-repeated cry from some locals.

Strangely though,when we asked for their detailed reasons for saying that we were 'dreaming', 'wasting our time' etc. none were forthcoming.

This was mainly because they didn't have any, due to their not even having bothered to studiy the proposals.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dave, please correct me, on Ordnance Survey maps of the Sandbach area a line went off to the left, was it to Macclesfield or Congleton? Does any part of the trackbed exist & could it be a prospective line for reopening?

This is the former line to Kidsgrove which closed in 1971. It was used for many years for the Stanlow oil trains which came down through the Helsby-Mouldsworth line (also now closed)to Northwich, Middlewich, Sandbach, Kidsgrove and thence to Stoke-On-trent. It was a useful way of avoiding the need for these trains to go through Crewe.

Part of the formation now forms the 'Salt Line' trail. I can't see it ever re-opening, unfortunatlely.

On a slightly brighter note, the Helsby - Mouldsworth line itself, though lifted, is protected from development in case it should be needed again.

 

[northwichcat]

Incidentally, the re-opening scheme is being enthusiastically supported by our MP, Fiona Bruce, because she sees potential economic benefits for the whole region, not just the Middlewich area.

One further benefit would be an additional station at Gadbrook Park, but whether to include that in proposals now or wait until a service is running on the line is a different question.

 

[Dave Roberts]

One further benefit would be an additional station at Gadbrook Park, but whether to include that in proposals now or wait until a service is running on the line is a different question.

Yes, the idea of an additional station at that location has been discussed at our meetings and, I think, pitched to Cheshire West & Chester Council on a few occasions. There's certainly been a lot of housing development in the area in recent years and expressions of support and interest from locals (as well as a few rumblings of dissent from those who have still not grasped that if you don't like the noise of trains, it's best not to live near a railway).
In the end, though, our preference is for keeping things simple at this stage. We are, however, open to suggestions as to how the plans can be enhanced and have a collective open mind on the subject of additional stations on the line.

 

[ivanhoe]

When I first looked st this , I thought yet another aspirational campaign to right the wrongs of Beeching. On further examination, it shows that Middlewich is a transport desert. 44 minutes to Crewe ! 30 minutes to Northwich and hardly any direct links to Chester, the historical County City. You can see therefore that the cost benefit analysis is high but the low frequency transport links are worrying. Does that suggest that Middlewich people prefer their cars or does it mean they need them!

Good luck with your campaign !

 

[Dave Roberts]

When I first looked st this , I thought yet another aspirational campaign to right the wrongs of Beeching. On further examination, it shows that Middlewich is a transport desert. 44 minutes to Crewe ! 30 minutes to Northwich and hardly any direct links to Chester, the historical County City. You can see therefore that the cost benefit analysis is high but the low frequency transport links are worrying. Does that suggest that Middlewich people prefer their cars or does it mean they need them!

Good luck with your campaign !

Thanks for that. I'm glad you have grasped the basic point I was trying to make - that Middlewich is not just another 'pie-in-the-sky' idea dreamed up (I hate that phrase) by idealistic enthusiasts longing for an unattainable goal.

I have said on many occasions that if someone can give me hard facts and figures to show that we are 'wasting our time' I'll drop my involvement immediately. No one has. Ever.

Regarding Middlewich's woefully inadequate transport links, you're quite right.

People in Middlewich use their cars because they really have no alternative.

To fill in a little background: The first report we commissioned (The 'Chapman Report') confirmed what we had known all along - that there was a demand for rail travel from Middlewich to and from the Manchester/Altrincham corridor, linking into the Mid-Cheshire line at Northwich.

There has been major housing development to the west of the old town of Middlewich (indeed, according to the developers, there is a lot more to come in the future) and, fortuitously, the proposed Middlewich Station lies within easy walking distance of this massive housing estate which, equally fortuitously, houses a great many professionals and semi-professionals who work in that area and are forced to use their cars and contribute to the awful congestion on the A556 and other road routes into Manchester and Altrincham.

The Railway Consultancy Report confirmed, and expanded upon these findings.

People in Middlewich do not just think a new station is 'a good idea'. They desperately need it.

Incidentally, the Middlewich line was not one of Dr Beeching's casualties; it closed at the end of 1959 due to competition from bus companies, which have provided services of varying quality ever since; services which can not, in this day and age, be considered a replacement for a proper commuter train service.

Our campaign was started in 1992 by the Mid Cheshire Rail Users' Association, the user group for the Chester-Manchester line, which identified yet another advantage of re-opening the Sandbach-Middlewich-Northwich line - the provision of a direct service to Crewe for passengers from stations West of Northwich, obviating the need to travel to Crewe via Chester or MAnchester.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, the idea of an additional station at that location has been discussed at our meetings and, I think, pitched to Cheshire West & Chester Council on a few occasions. There's certainly been a lot of housing development in the area in recent years and expressions of support and interest from locals

I think one complication would be you'd really need pedestrian access over the A556 to not limit the catchment area of a new station, which would be advantageousness to do anyway. Morrisons have been known to tell people living in Rudheath that they can't have a job at the Morrisons warehouse unless they have a car due to it not being safe to cross the A556.

as well as a few rumblings of dissent from those who have still not grasped that if you don't like the noise of trains, it's best not to live near a railway).

Perhaps they don't realise that a 2 car DMU is quieter than traffic noise (assuming it's not a Pacer on a bend) and that noisy freight already uses the line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On further examination, it shows that Middlewich is a transport desert. 44 minutes to Crewe ! 30 minutes to Northwich and hardly any direct links to Chester, the historical County City. You can see therefore that the cost benefit analysis is high but the low frequency transport links are worrying. Does that suggest that Middlewich people prefer their cars or does it mean they need them!

You could compare Middlewich with Knutsford. They're similar population size and apart from a couple of bus routes buses are too infrequent on indirect. However, if you look at the numbers boarding and alighting Mid Cheshire line services Knutsford gets more passengers than Stockport and Chester - only Manchester Piccadilly has more people boarding and alighting Mid Cheshire line services than Knutsford.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Perhaps they don't realise that a 2 car DMU is quieter than traffic noise (assuming it's not a Pacer on a bend) and that noisy freight already uses the line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They didn't. But they do now!

 

[AJP62]

Does much freight use this line these days? I'm based in an office in Gadbrook Park and used to see freight trains though the tanks to Middlewich seem to have stopped now. The rails don't seem unused though I have seen the odd Voyager going along during the week - presume these were off the WCML at Hartford and back on at Crewe, perhaps to retain route knowledge?

A station could be built alongside the business park at Gadbrook with access under the A556 alongside the rail line to the residential area to the north side. I expect usage of a station would be more popular for the business park than the residential area.

 

[northwichcat]

Does much freight use this line these days? I'm based in an office in Gadbrook Park and used to see freight trains though the tanks to Middlewich seem to have stopped now.

I think it's one or two per week using the Middlewich branch with other freight trains using the line next to the disused platform 3 at Northwich.

 

[Dave Roberts]

We're currently engaged in an exercise to gauge the support the re-opening has from the various candidates for the local council elections. We propose to publish our findings before May 5th

www.middlewichstation.org.uk

 

[northwichcat]

One apparent constraint is a lack of platforms that can be used for northbound terminating trains at Crewe.

If this is the case would it not be an idea to run an hourly Altrincham-Northwich-Crewe-Whitchurch-Shrewsbury service? If that happened I wouldn't be surprised if paths suddenly appeared between Stockport and Manchester for extending the service to Manchester.

 

[Whistler40145]

I am going back to the Crewe Remodelling Project & it used to be possible to gain access to the Manchester line from the Bay Platforms currently used by North Wales services, along with what is now Platform 11, maybe if this link was re-instated, through Manchester services would have a choice of Platforms 5, 6 & 11, with the Northwich service timed to use Platform 1 between other services & some locals could use the Bay Platforms, North Wales/Chester could use Platform 12.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One apparent constraint is a lack of platforms that can be used for northbound terminating trains at Crewe.

If this is the case would it not be an idea to run an hourly Altrincham-Northwich-Crewe-Whitchurch-Shrewsbury service? If that happened I wouldn't be surprised if paths suddenly appeared between Stockport and Manchester for extending the service to Manchester.

I came across this thread whilst idly looking through old threads and it took me back to the 1980's when during my time in the Altrincham area, I was a member of the Mid-Cheshire Rail Users Association (Andrew MacFarlane was the shining star) which was linking with people in the Middlewich area who were pressing for line re-opening to commuter traffic, as many new houses were being built in the catchment area that this line could serve.

I followed up matters for a short time, but lost touch with all railway projects in that area, as work took me far away on secondment duties. I see that nothing really happened, according from what I have read in this thread.

You mention a service from Altrincham to Shrewsbury via Northwich. I feel that the time it will take will not be able to rival the ATW Wilmslow to Shrewsbury route which has only one intermediate stop at Crewe.

I have not personally travelled on the line from Altrincham to Chester via Knutsford and Northwich for quite a few years, but I remember how slow it was. Are there many speed restriction sections still on this line?

 

[northwichcat]

I have not personally travelled on the line from Altrincham to Chester via Knutsford and Northwich for quite a few years, but I remember how slow it was. Are there many speed restriction sections still on this line?

The line's 50-75 in the main between Chester and Stockport. The exception is over the Leftwich viaduct. In theory the speed limit is 20mph for Pacers and 50mph for Sprinters and 175s. However, in practice it's 20mph for all because Network Rail aren't bothered about raising it unless Pacers are banned from the line.

The main problem with the Mid Cheshire line is the number of stops. The more well used stations i.e. Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford, Hale, Altrincham get the same level of service as the almost ghost town station of Ashley so anyone travelling on the line has to sit through all the stops.

You mention a service from Altrincham to Shrewsbury via Northwich. I feel that the time it will take will not be able to rival the ATW Wilmslow to Shrewsbury route which has only one intermediate stop at Crewe.

It wouldn't be so much rivalling existing services but adding new journey opportunities. For instance, some South Cheshire/North Shropshire towns would be able to get to Old Trafford via a change at Altrincham. Nantwich could have a direct service to central Cheshire etc.

The Liverpool-Birmingham route isn't fast but it gets plenty of passengers boarding and alighting at intermediate stops.

 

[Spaceflower]

When I first looked st this , I thought yet another aspirational campaign to right the wrongs of Beeching. On further examination, it shows that Middlewich is a transport desert. 44 minutes to Crewe ! 30 minutes to Northwich and hardly any direct links to Chester, the historical County City. You can see therefore that the cost benefit analysis is high but the low frequency transport links are worrying. Does that suggest that Middlewich people prefer their cars or does it mean they need them!

Good luck with your campaign !

County Durham is a transport desert.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The line's 50-75 in the main between Chester and Stockport. The exception is over the Leftwich viaduct. In theory the speed limit is 20mph for Pacers and 50mph for Sprinters and 175s. However, in practice it's 20mph for all because Network Rail aren't bothered about raising it unless Pacers are banned from the line.

The main problem with the Mid Cheshire line is the number of stops. The more well used stations i.e. Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford, Hale, Altrincham get the same level of service as the almost ghost town station of Ashley so anyone travelling on the line has to sit through all the stops.



It wouldn't be so much rivalling existing services but adding new journey opportunities. For instance, some South Cheshire/North Shropshire towns would be able to get to Old Trafford via a change at Altrincham. Nantwich could have a direct service to central Cheshire etc.

The Liverpool-Birmingham route isn't fast but it gets plenty of passengers boarding and alighting at intermediate stops.

You make the case very well that the number of stops on the Manchester-Altrincham-Chester is a reason for the time that this journey takes so long. It is similar to having a "limited stop" bus service but I suppose it does provide a useful town-to-town route for commuters, shoppers and day trippers

With regard to your Altrincham to Shrewsbury route, you are having to plan such services with dovetailing into existing paths for freight and the aforemention Chester stopping service.

I am somewhat concerned at the numbers of paths that could be increased between Stockport and Altrincham, noting the current useage and the fact that it is a single line, bi-directionally signalled. Also, if I correctly recall, the former GMPTE (now TfGM) looked at the prospect of opening stations between Navigation Road station and Stockport station, but this came to naught.

I would make a final comment about having a station a good distance from the town that it serves. Look at Sandbach....it is very handy for all the industrial units at Elworth, but have you ever actually walked from Sandbach station to the centre of Sandbach? Not a prospect to endure on a regular basis.

 

[Dave Roberts]

I see that nothing really happened, according from what I have read in this thread.

Nothing really happened? Except that we finally, after a great deal of pushing, managed to get the then Cheshire County Council to take the lead in setting up a steering group, which then led to us obtaining funding for the Railway Consultancy Report which, like every other report, recommended re-opening, and has led to the current situation where we are waiting for a quote from Network Rail to take us to the GRIP 3 stage.

Our definitions of 'nothing really happening' appear to differ.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would make a final comment about having a station a good distance from the town that it serves. Look at Sandbach....it is very handy for all the industrial units at Elworth, but have you ever actually walked from Sandbach station to the centre of Sandbach? Not a prospect to endure on a regular basis.

There is, of course, a very good and frequent bus service between Sandbach Station and the town centre.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nothing really happened? Except that we finally, after a great deal of pushing, managed to get the then Cheshire County Council to take the lead in setting up a steering group, which then led to us obtaining funding for the Railway Consultancy Report which, like every other report, recommended re-opening, and has led to the current situation where we are waiting for a quote from Network Rail to take us to the GRIP 3 stage.

Our definitions of 'nothing really happening' appear to differ.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There is, of course, a very good and frequent bus service between Sandbach Station and the town centre.

When I said "nothing really happened", over the 25 year period that I referred to, I was referring to the fact that no rail service was introduced over a 25 year period. I would be the last to decry the amount of extremely hard work done by people trying to obtain rail links for their area to the national network and you deserve praise for keeping the matter to the fore and not to be disheartened by the length of time since moves were made to try to bring this project to fruition. I am very pleased with the latest progress you have made.

With regard to the bus service, yes, I am aware of it. The point that I was making that the station is some distance from the town. This matter was not an uncommon fact when some railways at time of construction placed stations quite a distance from the towns they were intended to serve.
Bescar Lane and New Lane on the Manchester to Southport line are examples of this....and for those with strong legs who like walking as a hobby, there is Dent on the Settle to Carlisle line.

 

[northwichcat]

When I said "nothing really happened", over the 25 year period that I referred to, I was referring to the fact that no rail service was introduced over a 25 year period.

If you look at the last 25 years there are clear reasons for the line not reopening:
1. Railways were in a state on not knowing what's going to happen following Conservative announcement that they plan to privatise them.
2. Metrolink services starting meaning a drop in passenger numbers for the Mid Cheshire line as the rail route via Stockport is less attractive.
3. After passenger numbers begin to pick up an operator called First North Western takes charge and provides a non-punctual, unreliable service and the train becomes an unattractive option again.
4. Northern Rail take over and passenger numbers pick up again. However, in general passenger numbers are growing at a very fast rate so there is a shortage of carriages.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you look at the last 25 years there are clear reasons for the line not reopening:
1. Railways were in a state on not knowing what's going to happen following Conservative announcement that they plan to privatise them.
2. Metrolink services starting meaning a drop in passenger numbers for the Mid Cheshire line as the rail route via Stockport is less attractive.
3. After passenger numbers begin to pick up an operator called First North Western takes charge and provides a non-punctual, unreliable service and the train becomes an unattractive option again.
4. Northern Rail take over and passenger numbers pick up again. However, in general passenger numbers are growing at a very fast rate so there is a shortage of carriages.

Your point is taken as far as I am concerned. I just picked up on a matter that I had not been concerned with since the 1980's.

I wonder how Dave Roberts sees these views with regard to the position that his group are currently at with their negotiations.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Your point is taken as far as I am concerned. I just picked up on a matter that I had not been concerned with since the 1980's.

I wonder how Dave Roberts sees these views with regard to the position that his group are currently at with their negotiations.

Hi Paul,

Yes, sorry, I did reply to your original posting, but my reply seems to have got lost in the ether somewhere. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding and thank you for your encouraging words.
We've seen the fortunes of the railway industry, and the way it is perceived, change dramatically since the campaign started in 1992 and we are now more confident than ever of the eventual success of our scheme. But we are well aware of the difficulties that lie ahead, particularly in our dealings with Network Rail.
That said, the viability of the idea and the potential it has for improving transport not only in this area, but throughout the North West is not in doubt.
Apologies to everyone on this forum if I occasionally sound a little tetchy, but the old 'you're dreaming', 'you're wasting your time' arguments were dealt with, as far as we're concerned, years ago.
The question is no longer 'will it happen?', but 'when will it happen?'
We welcome the constructive discussion and suggestions from members of the forum.
I was interested, too, in your comments about stations situated a distance away from the towns they serve.
One famous example, of course, is Crewe station, but for somewhat unusual reasons, in that here it was the station that came first, not the town.
Ironically, the old Middlewich Station and its proposed replacement do not fall into this category. Both are within easy walking distance of the town centre (and, crucially, the housing developments from whence will come the commuters who will use the line).