Milton Keynes Ctl to Leeds validity via Manchester?

[Bletchleyite]

To me, the obvious route from MKC to Leeds is via Manchester (though there's also Tamworth/Birmingham and at a higher price London, the former being fairly quick but not great in case of disruption due to the poor facilities there and both routes only being hourly).

However, it appears that the only Permitted Route this way requires you to go via Rochdale on a Northern service, I can't get planners to come up with any validity using TPE.

This doesn't tend to bother me very much because a split last time I checked was cheaper - but does anyone know why this quirk exists? Perhaps unintentional? One would think there would either be validity via Manchester on the more obvious routes or not at all.

 

[Haywain]

The map combination of MA+MN clearly allows the Huddersfield route between Manchester and Leeds. Are you sure there's not engineering works causing your problem (replacement bus from Stockport to Huddersfield, for example, all this week)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if it's that, or more specifically the diversion of the remaining TPEs via Wakefield*, that's causing it? I can get TPE to come up if I plan for mid August.

* Because if I put "Via Huddersfield" I get no journeys at all, whereas by the above maps some should come up on the diverted TPEs.

 

[Haywain]

Today, from Trainsplit (no split tickets, via point of Huddersfield):

Image shows itinerary via Huddersfield, using RRB from Stockport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I could get that, but I don't want anything involving buses. The TPE Newcastle-Liverpool is still operating via Vic calling at Huddersfield but diverting via Wakefield, and it seems impossible to get an itinerary involving this.

Trainsplit will find it with the above settings and a via of Huddersfield *and* Victoria, but won't show any fares unless you enable splits.

Indeed it won't seem to respect "via MCV" even if I try in August, though I'd not want to do that once the direct Picc services are back on.

 

[Haywain]

Try via points of both Manchester Piccadilly and Huddersfield - that gives a train only itinerary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try via points of both Manchester Piccadilly and Huddersfield - that gives a train only itinerary.

For today it doesn't (if you use the via points you mention it sends you on a Leeds-Hudds bus!). It won't give a fare for anything involving the TPE diverted via Wakey.

I guess it's that diversion that's the issue and there aren't quite enough easements in.

 

[Haywain]

For today it doesn't (if you use the via points you mention it sends you on a Leeds-Hudds bus!).

Again, today from Trainsplit:

Image shows itinerary via Manchester and Huddersfield without buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, I was putting in Leeds-MKC and I guess the timings led to the bus.

Have you tried via Huddersfield and Victoria? For me that gives no fares on the diverted TPEs. Manchester is one thing on the routeing map so I can't see why it excludes these (and they haven't marked them reservations compulsory so it's not that).

 

[Haywain]

Have you tried via Huddersfield and Victoria?

Image shows itinerary via Manchester Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, I can see what's going on.

Try the other way round (Leeds-MKC via Huddersfield and Victoria) rather than MKC-Leeds - I wasn't paying attention to which way round it was as it's unusual for it not to be the same both ways. You'll get the itinerary but no fares. Only the RRB gives fares.

It does work for me that way round.

I wonder if it's a botched easement, as the Liverpool-Newcastles are going via Wakefield both ways?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yes, I could get that, but I don't want anything involving buses. The TPE Newcastle-Liverpool is still operating via Vic calling at Huddersfield but diverting via Wakefield, and it seems impossible to get an itinerary involving this.

It won’t be a botched easement as the Saltburn-Victoria services are also diverted via Wakefield. I wonder if it’s a timing issue, the RRB will on paper be quicker than going to Victoria then transferring onwards to Piccadilly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It won’t be a botched easement as the Saltburn-Victoria services are also diverted via Wakefield. I wonder if it’s a timing issue, the RRB will on paper be quicker than going to Victoria then transferring onwards to Piccadilly.

No, it's definitely a validity issue. You can, if you faff about enough, get the itinerary to come up, but no fares are shown. Only other thought was them being set compulsory reservation and "sold out" but they aren't.

 

[Haywain]

Try the other way round (Leeds-MKC via Huddersfield and Victoria) rather than MKC-Leeds - I wasn't paying attention to which way round it was as it's unusual for it not to be the same both ways. You'll get the itinerary but no fares. Only the RRB gives fares.

That's what I see that way round, no fares.

I wonder if it's a botched easement, as the Liverpool-Newcastles are going via Wakefield both ways?

There shouldn't be an easement involved as it's using a permitted route.

In any event, you can see the trains and you can buy the walk-up ticket, so you're not being prevented from making the journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any event, you can see the trains and you can buy the walk-up ticket, so you're not being prevented from making the journey.

Yes, true. I'm just intrigued as to why!

(My original enquiry which led to this was done via Trainline, which like most sites wouldn't show it at all if there were no fares - hence why they weren't coming up)

There shouldn't be an easement involved as it's using a permitted route.

Is Wakefield normally Permitted? I wonder if it's that diversion that is an issue. For fares purposes diverted trains are meant to be considered as via their normal route, but the planners don't actually know that and easements are generally used. This isn't a new issue - I remember in the very early days of Trainline it being impossible to buy Manchester-Scotland tickets when services were diverting via the Settle-Carlisle because they are (or were) all routed Lancaster.

 

[Tetchytyke]

No, it's definitely a validity issue. You can, if you faff about enough, get the itinerary to come up, but no fares are shown. Only other thought was them being set compulsory reservation and "sold out" but they aren't.

Quite right, it puts you on the RRB from Leeds to Huddersfield. I thought you meant it was putting you on the RRB from Huddersfield to Stockport.

Very odd. The image shows that the services involving the RRB from Leeds to Huddersfield gives a price and the diverted trains do not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep, I think that's because when there's a bus in the data it's automatically assumed valid (or somesuch). You could get some interesting routes involving the Marston Vale when that was bustituted.

There does seem to be a Wakey related easement:

701215 During engineering works, TPE services between Leeds and Huddersfield will be
diverted via Wakefield Kirkgate. This map easement will apply in both directions.

...though unfortunately it's not possible for me as a passenger to see inside it to see exactly what was implemented and if there are any errors in it.

 

[Haywain]

Is Wakefield normally Permitted? I wonder if it's that diversion that is an issue. For fares purposes diverted trains are meant to be considered as via their normal route, but the planners don't actually know that and easements are generally used.

Probably not. There is an easement (701215) that says this, but I don't know whether it's having an impact:

During engineering works, TPE services between Leeds and Huddersfield will be diverted via Wakefield Kirkgate. This map easement will apply in both directions

 

[Tetchytyke]

There does seem to be a Wakey related easement:

701215 During engineering works, TPE services between Leeds and Huddersfield will be
diverted via Wakefield Kirkgate. This map easement will apply in both directions.

That’s probably where the issue is.

I’d imagine that via Wakefield will be valid and via Huddersfield will be valid, but it’ll be the stretch between Ravensthorpe and Kirkgate will be the problem. The RRB sticks to the normal route via Dewsbury even if the RRB isn’t automatically treated as valid.

 

[OscarH]

Yep, I think that's because when there's a bus in the data it's automatically assumed valid (or somesuch). You could get some interesting routes involving the Marston Vale when that was bustituted

Not necessarily automatically valid, the routeing guide still applies, but iirc the bus legs are treated as 0 mileage, so you can get some interesting routes by the shortest route rule

 

[Andrew1395]

That’s probably where the issue is.

I’d imagine that via Wakefield will be valid and via Huddersfield will be valid, but it’ll be the stretch between Ravensthorpe and Kirkgate will be the problem. The RRB sticks to the normal route via Dewsbury even if the RRB isn’t automatically treated as valid.

i think the map easement will work if it has data linking Mirfield to Wakefield Kirkgate. Ravensthoroe is on the line to Dewsbury, not the line to Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[kieron]

If you find an itinerary via Manchester for which a "not London" ticket isn't shown as being valid, you may want to check exactly what route the trains in question take (such as by using realtimetrains.co.uk). The diverted Liverpool-Newcastle trains normally follow a route between Manchester and Leeds which is permitted by the MN map and easement 701215, so there may be something else going on with the itinerary in question.

 

[Haywain]

If you find an itinerary via Manchester for which a "not London" ticket isn't shown as being valid, you may want to check exactly what route the trains in question take (such as by using realtimetrains.co.uk). The diverted Liverpool-Newcastle trains normally follow a route between Manchester and Leeds which is permitted by the MN map and easement 701215, so there may be something else going on with the itinerary in question.

Having checked these yesterday, it is far from clear why no tickets were being offered when the routeing appeared to be in accordance with map MN and easement 701215. I was checking the complete routeing for the trains in question. An example, looking at tomorrow, is a journey leaving Leeds at 10:15 to Manchester Victoria, and then the 12:15 from Piccadilly to MKC. Whatever is going on, it suggests that 701215 isn't doing what it was intended to do.

 

[kieron]

That's odd; it was shown as a valid route on nre.co.uk* when I look,

There is another option for this journey, anyway. There are "via Manchester" tickets from Leighton Buzzard to Leeds. Getting an itinerary for one of those should be easy.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this link to open correctly.

 

[MrJeeves]

I'm a bit lost as to what the actual desired route is now...

If @Bletchleyite can provide a forum site/TrainSplit search URL and say which itinerary they're looking for a through ticket to cover out of the search results I can have a look into why we're not offering it.

That's odd; it was shown as a valid route on nre.co.uk* when I look,

These all have unticketed "transfer" legs, while I think OP wanted a full train-only route, didn't they?

 

[Haywain]

If @Bletchleyite can provide a forum site/TrainSplit search URL and say which itinerary they're looking for a through ticket to cover out of the search results I can have a look into why we're not offering it.

The journey was Leeds to Milton Keynes, with a via point of Huddersfield and excluding buses and splits. Example of trains in post #23.

These all have unticketed "transfer" legs, while I think OP wanted a full train-only route, didn't they?

A transfer between Manchester Vic and Piccadilly was deemed as acceptable.

 

[MrJeeves]

The journey was Leeds to Milton Keynes, with a via point of Huddersfield and excluding buses and splits.


A transfer between Manchester Vic and Piccadilly was deemed as acceptable.

Unless something is different for tomorrow, I don't see any issues with this then?

It defaulted to a super off-peak single, but since there were mentions of "not via London" I manually selected that on the beta TrainSplit site too.

 

[Haywain]

Unless something is different for tomorrow, I don't see any issues with this then?

It defaulted to a super off-peak single, but since there were mentions of "not via London" I manually selected that on the beta TrainSplit site too.

View attachment 161539

Other way round, starting at Leeds!

 

[MrJeeves]

Other way round, starting at Leeds!

Oops... That does present issues, seemingly "off-route at Stalybridge".

 

[kieron]

These all have unticketed "transfer" legs, while I think OP wanted a full train-only route, didn't they?

If you did want an itinerary with trains all the way, one option would be to request journeys via Salford Central instead of Manchester Victoria. It's a bit slower, though, so I couldn't include the requested trains in that route.

Oops... That does present issues, seemingly "off-route at Stalybridge".

I think there may be a problem with that algorithm. I have no idea where, but that big string of routeing group codes doesn't inspire me with confidence when map easements don't use them.