Milton Keynes "monorail" being considered?

[eMeS]

My local paper, Milton Keynes Citizen, announced last week that the "monorail" system for which the grid roads were designed may be given fresh consideration. Whether "monorail" is the correct description, I've no idea, as the printed article had no illustrations, and I can't get the online version, if it exists, to open.

http://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/local/monorail_plan_back_on_track_1_2755763

The comments about car dependency are correct. With one, the city is very manageable and convenient with very little real congestion; without, one realises very quickly how very spread out the city is, and that the area is more hilly than you realised!

 

[Yew]

Everybody wants a monorail. However I think once the accountants get in there it will be closer to a raised light rail system (like in chicago)

 

[Mike395]

Everybody wants a monorail. However I think once the accountants get in there it will be closer to a raised light rail system (like in chicago)

That's the thing, no-one in MK wants a monorail :P The newspapers dont appear to know the difference between a monorail and a PRT system, which is much more suited to the city and is what is actually being proposed!

 

[Yew]

I suppose if its running on one rail, it could be counted as a monorail in most peoples eyes, even if it is more of a rapid transit system (as opposed to more train-like)

 

[jopsuk]

I notice even the guy backing the system (does he have a commercial interest in PRT?) has posted a comment saying it isn't a monorail.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't be the only person who thought of this upon the mention of 'monorail' can I?

 

[Greenback]

No, I thought of it as well!

I know someone in Milton Keynes. He doesn't want a monorail, he said he'd rather have a bendy bus!

 

[CarterUSM]

I can't be the only person who thought of this upon the mention of 'monorail' can I?

First thing that popped into my head!!

 

[Metrailway]

I can't be the only person who thought of this upon the mention of 'monorail' can I?

It will put MK on the map. Just like it did for Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook...

 

[tbtc]

Is there a chance the track could bend?

 

[jopsuk]

I can't be the only person who thought of this upon the mention of 'monorail' can I?

No. Every single time I hear of a monorail proposal, instantly it's there. I reckon this PRT proposal is just as wrongheaded, even if it isn't a monorail. It's like a guided busway, but lower capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Long before Manchester Metrolink was conceived, in 1967 there was a north to south proposal for a monorail system running from the Middleton area of the north of Manchester running to Manchester Airport.

There was a three volume "Manchester Rapid Transport Study" commissioned jointly by Manchester Corporation, British Railways and The Ministry of Transport. The Consulting Engineers were de Leuw Cather and Partners. There is a copy of the three volume report in the archives of the Manchester Museum of Transport.

Events proved fruitless and the system was not considered suitable for Manchester.

 

[gordonthemoron]

they should get a Schwebebahn like Wuppertal

 

[j0hn0]

now that's a railway!

I don't think it will ever get built. If all cities in England had a rapid transit system, we wouldn't have such a reliance on London. London has been allowed to grow by the constant investment in the railways.

No other city gets anywhere near the kind of investment that London gets

ps Not on your life my hindu friend

 

[passmore]

My local paper, Milton Keynes Citizen, announced last week that the "monorail" system for which the grid roads were designed may be given fresh consideration. Whether "monorail" is the correct description, I've no idea, as the printed article had no illustrations, and I can't get the online version, if it exists, to open.

http://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/local/monorail_plan_back_on_track_1_2755763

The comments about car dependency are correct. With one, the city is very manageable and convenient with very little real congestion; without, one realises very quickly how very spread out the city is, and that the area is more hilly than you realised!

I saw that, and laughed.

I've lived in Milton Keynes for nearly 40 years and I can remember the original proposal, and it sounds like they're regurgitated it here.

It was thrown out on the basis of practicality and the fact that the people who dreamt it up in the first place were obviously high on something.

Don't read too much into this. It's nothing more than a pipe dream.

 

[DarloRich]

To me MK is ideal for a tram system. The roads are so wide you could fit it in without to much trouble

PS love that Simpsons episode

 

[j0hn0]

I saw that, and laughed.

I've lived in Milton Keynes for nearly 40 years and I can remember the original proposal, and it sounds like they're regurgitated it here.

It was thrown out on the basis of practicality and the fact that the people who dreamt it up in the first place were obviously high on something.

Don't read too much into this. It's nothing more than a pipe dream.

why is someone that came up with a visionary idea "high on something"?

 

[Bayum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF_yLodI1CQ

 

[passmore]

Because it's completely impractical for MK.

A visionary is someone who at least comes up with a sensible future vision for a town or a city. A monorail would at least benefit an area of another town or city where traffic is a problem.

The real visionaries are the people who came up with the grid road system as a means of easing traffic, in this case, the original Development Corporation.

 

[generalvegitable]

traffic, not a problem?! look at Chaffron way and standing way between Watling street and Grafton street at about 8:45am the queues stretch right along the section and sometimes gridlock the roundabouts, look at that double roundabout by tesco in Bletchley most of the day, look at the city centre during rush hour (and due to the removal of the underpass by sainsbury's during most of the day too). we have a massive problem with traffic. most of the grid roads can cope with the volume of traffic, but the parking in the city centre can't. if you walk around during the day you will see how almost all of the parking spaces have been taken, the parking in the city centre can barely cope with the amount of traffic.

its not just about traffic congestion though. Milton Keynes has a woefully inadequate network of public transport, with unreliable buses that are either late or don't turn up, rude drivers who will abandon the bus just to hurl abuse at someone who has broken down or pulled over in a bus stop, skip parts of the route because none of the on-board passengers are going there, the list goes on.

a tram/monorail/PRT will encourage people to use the public transport, which saves costs, reduces carbon emissions, and can save resources too. we need this because with the expansion the grid roads will struggle to cope with all the new traffic that will be directed onto our roads. a new transport system will mean that people will want to leave their cars at home, people wouldn't have to rely on overpriced and corrupt busses. if this is properly integrated the public perception of MK can be changed and it will gain the respect that it deserves.


NB. I'll admit that I am a bit biased but that is because I have lived in MK all of my life and I want the best for the city, and I know it isn't really a city but everyone I know refer to it as a city

 

[passmore]

I strongly doubt that a monorail would be best for the city though. Just where would it go? Which side would it serve? Would it run from Bletchley to Wolverton as a sort of 'backbone'? Who would use it? There are too many planning headaches to overcome, and I still maintain that any visionary/hopeful/optimistic image will soon disappear pretty quickly as the reality of what will turn out to be a White Elephant hits home.

Ultimately, building a monorail in MK is a bit of a false economy. There are more cheaper alternatives to improving public transport around Milton Keynes without having to resort to an expensive remedy with no guarantee of any long-term benefit. This is largely because MK doesn't really need a monorail, and I firmly believe larger cities such as Birmingham or even London would benefit greatly than MK.

I don't want to come across as a naysayer, but anyone who's lived in Milton Keynes since the seventies have seen this all before. Some person who proclaims himself/herself to be a 'visionary' comes along with this fantastic idea for the future of the city, only to be loudly applauded by the optimists and frowned upon by the realists as the reality hits home. The idea comes along, everyone gets excited, nothing happens....

 

[generalvegitable]

I strongly doubt that a monorail would be best for the city though.

I agree that a monorail may not be the best option, I would personally prefer a tram network

Just where would it go? Which side would it serve?

it would most likely follow the grid roads and I would guess that it would serve the whole city

Would it run from Bletchley to Wolverton as a sort of 'backbone'?

it would most likely start like that and eventually be expanded

There are too many planning headaches to overcome, and I still maintain that any visionary/hopeful/optimistic image will soon disappear pretty quickly as the reality of what will turn out to be a White Elephant hits home.

it may well happen but it would be interesting to see whether this goes ahead

There are more cheaper alternatives to improving public transport around Milton Keynes without having to resort to an expensive remedy with no guarantee of any long-term benefit.

I don't doubt that, but the cheapest method would be to improve the bus services, this wouldn't attract as many people to it as a tram/monorail/prt network would, look at Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester for proof of what light rail can do

This is largely because MK doesn't really need a monorail, and I firmly believe larger cities such as Birmingham or even London would benefit greatly than MK.

I agree that it may not be needed right now but if it is built, in the medium term the local population will be glad of it and wonder why it wasn't built in the seventies when it was originally proposed.

I hope that it goes ahead but knowing what the council are like it will get quietly shelved in an attempt to save money and we will be stuck with an inadequate bus service.

 

[A0wen]

traffic, not a problem?! look at Chaffron way and standing way between Watling street and Grafton street at about 8:45am the queues stretch right along the section and sometimes gridlock the roundabouts, look at that double roundabout by tesco in Bletchley most of the day, look at the city centre during rush hour (and due to the removal of the underpass by sainsbury's during most of the day too). we have a massive problem with traffic. most of the grid roads can cope with the volume of traffic, but the parking in the city centre can't. if you walk around during the day you will see how almost all of the parking spaces have been taken, the parking in the city centre can barely cope with the amount of traffic.

its not just about traffic congestion though. Milton Keynes has a woefully inadequate network of public transport, with unreliable buses that are either late or don't turn up, rude drivers who will abandon the bus just to hurl abuse at someone who has broken down or pulled over in a bus stop, skip parts of the route because none of the on-board passengers are going there, the list goes on.

a tram/monorail/PRT will encourage people to use the public transport, which saves costs, reduces carbon emissions, and can save resources too. we need this because with the expansion the grid roads will struggle to cope with all the new traffic that will be directed onto our roads. a new transport system will mean that people will want to leave their cars at home, people wouldn't have to rely on overpriced and corrupt busses. if this is properly integrated the public perception of MK can be changed and it will gain the respect that it deserves.


NB. I'll admit that I am a bit biased but that is because I have lived in MK all of my life and I want the best for the city, and I know it isn't really a city but everyone I know refer to it as a city

And as somebody who works in MK, I'd take issue with a couple of your points.

First up the Bletchley situation - that's not part of the "grid road" system as you will know. Yes, it is a traffic bottleneck, but it's not due to lack of capacity on the grid - that's a legacy road which has ended up with alot of development around it and little consideration about how best to manage the traffic which development generates.

The grid roads which tend to struggle are the single carriageway ones where they meet the dual carriageways. And whenever the "traffic planners" have done their bit (i.e. install traffic lights, install bus lanes) the traffic queues have got worse........

On the parking front - there is still a fair bit of parking. The problems are more specific - a lack of capacity around the shopping centre, for example. If you head down to the areas around the old Hockey Stadium or Bus Station, there are always spaces down there. The problems are twofold. Firstly recent councils allowed a lot of development to take place in areas which were already heavily developed e.g. where the new Sainsburys is. The parking usage there was already close to capacity and parking spaces were lost to allow that development to take place. No new parking or replacement parking was provided.
Secondly, the charging regime. The premium rate spaces (£1 hour) are regularly unused - partly because the various permits aren't valid in them and partly because nobody likes being ripped off.

The last problem, which a PRT won't solve, is the number of people who travel INTO MK from OUTSIDE of MK - I'm one. There's no way I'd regularly use public transport for my journey, simply because it would take about 3 times as long door to door (Northampton - MK in my case). Places like Towcester, Daventry and Wellingborough would be even worse.

 

[generalvegitable]

First up the Bletchley situation - that's not part of the "grid road" system as you will know. Yes, it is a traffic bottleneck, but it's not due to lack of capacity on the grid - that's a legacy road which has ended up with alot of development around it and little consideration about how best to manage the traffic which development generates.

I agree that it is not down to lack of capacity on the grid, but the point I was tying to make with that is that there are some grid roads that are jammed up (In this case I think its Saxon Street but I am not 100% sure), this section does involve a grid road so I thought it was fair to mention it

The grid roads which tend to struggle are the single carriageway ones where they meet the dual carriageways. And whenever the "traffic planners" have done their bit (i.e. install traffic lights, install bus lanes) the traffic queues have got worse........

I completely and totally agree, the H7 problem is caused by exactly these, the "improvements" like the bus lane on the V6 between the H4 and the H5. as is the 0mph limit on the H7 all because some idiot decided not to use the bridge and wondered why they got killed.

On the parking front - there is still a fair bit of parking. The problems are more specific - a lack of capacity around the shopping centre, for example. If you head down to the areas around the old Hockey Stadium or Bus Station, there are always spaces down there. The problems are twofold. Firstly recent councils allowed a lot of development to take place in areas which were already heavily developed e.g. where the new Sainsburys is. The parking usage there was already close to capacity and parking spaces were lost to allow that development to take place. No new parking or replacement parking was provided.
Secondly, the charging regime. The premium rate spaces (£1 hour) are regularly unused - partly because the various permits aren't valid in them and partly because nobody likes being ripped off.

the problem is, parking in the Hockey stadium area is convinient for the station etc but getting from there to the shopping centre is uphill (and can be quite tiring to walk). Parking up by the shopping centre can be quite tricky

The last problem, which a PRT won't solve, is the number of people who travel INTO MK from OUTSIDE of MK - I'm one. There's no way I'd regularly use public transport for my journey, simply because it would take about 3 times as long door to door (Northampton - MK in my case). Places like Towcester, Daventry and Wellingborough would be even worse.

park and ride stations per chance? if they did one at the coach-way it might just about be able to justify its existence, a couple more at the edge of the city may even help. anyway the people who commute into the city will enjoy a clearer run along the grid system because of less traffic.

PS. I live in a small village just outside of MK and have to drive in every day. I would love to be able to use this new network but I doubt it would be extended out to my area.

 

[DJ_K666]

If the accountants got their way it'd be Carpet Track...

http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/holdfast_tramwaytrack.htm

Although this could have been a solution to Edinburgh's Tram system problems...

 

[DarloRich]

The last problem, which a PRT won't solve, is the number of people who travel INTO MK from OUTSIDE of MK - I'm one. There's no way I'd regularly use public transport for my journey, simply because it would take about 3 times as long door to door (Northampton - MK in my case). Places like Towcester, Daventry and Wellingborough would be even worse.

Even by train form Northampton?

 

[jopsuk]

One of the big issues with the idea of putting in a PRT network would be that the streets beneath would become horrible, dark, places.

 

[A0wen]

Even by train form Northampton?

Unless you're in, or very close to the town centre, the bus or car journey into Northampton will take you at least 15 mins in rush hour.

The buses are timed to take circa 45 mins to get from Ecton Brook / Rectory Farm / Southfields to the town centre. And that's to Greyfriars Bus station so:

Bus to town 40 mins
Walk bus - rail stn - 10 mins
Train NH - MK - 15-20 mins
Walk station - MK centre 10 mins

Grand total - 1hr 20, assuming no delays and perfect connections for a journey I usually cover in 35-40 mins.

So, the answer to your question is 'Yes', even if you use the train.

 

[DarloRich]

I am lucky - i live right next to my local station and work on top of MK station so it is easy for me . BTW a tram would save you 10 minutes slog up that hill

I dont know Northampton at all

 

[causton]

I am lucky - i live right next to my local station and work on top of MK station so it is easy for me . BTW a tram would save you 10 minutes slog up that hill

I dont know Northampton at all

I do however, and I would agree. At the time I last used the bus from Southfields to Greyfriars it was a smelly old First double decker, spouting awful fumes and the driver didn't change the blind so at one bus turning area (just past the Weston Favell shopping centre) everyone got on it, then complained "Why's it not going to Southfields?" - the rest of the journey was similarly awful. Although once you get out of the bus station and to the train station + on to the train it's not half as bad