Milton Keynes to Clapham/Croydon - Southern Service.

[A60stock]

What exactly is happening with this service? Does it still run 7 days a week? I have noticed that the service does not seem to run past Clapham Junction when it does run. What is the future like for this service given that there has been much speculation over its operation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What exactly is happening with this service? Does it still run 7 days a week? I have noticed that the service does not seem to run past Clapham Junction when it does run. What is the future like for this service given that there has been much speculation over its operation?

It is running through today, if that's any help. Generally it doesn't on Sundays or when there is engineering work.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Seems to be running on Sunday 4th July 2021, but only from Clapham Junction as far as Watford Junction, and vice-versa.

Not sure if it has ever operated North of Watford Junction or South of Clapham Junction on a Sunday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to be running on Sunday 4th July 2021, but only from Clapham Junction as far as Watford Junction, and vice-versa.

Not sure if it has ever operated North of Watford Junction or South of Clapham Junction on a Sunday.

It generally only operates the short workings on Sundays, this is partially because of the WCML timetable being set up to accommodate partial 2 track working on a Sunday.

 

[I13]

At the moment, Mon - Fri has most trains running MK - Clapham during the day, and Watford - Clapham in the evening. A few in each direction continue to/from Selhurst. A Covid related reduction, but I can't speculate on whether it is likely to be permanent.

Saturdays are running as 'normal', MK - East Croydon during the day, Watford - East Croydon in the evening. This is what Mon - Fri would ordinarily look like.

Sundays as mentioned are Watford - Clapham all day, also as 'normal' for a Sunday.

 

[The Planner]

It generally only operates the short workings on Sundays, this is partially because of the WCML timetable being set up to accommodate partial 2 track working on a Sunday.

They also dont sign the fasts either if I recall.

 

[Lewlew]

They also dont sign the fasts either if I recall.

There was flooding in the Tring area a few months ago and the Southern train I was on was put on the fasts between Ledburn and Bourne End. Also seen one on the fasts through Harrow a few years back.

I think it's more a case of if there's any disruption/reduced capacity then they are the first to be cancelled/turned short at Watford. Along with the Trings.

 

[Boodiggy]

They also dont sign the fasts either if I recall.

I think the bit of fasts not signed is West London Jn / Willesden No 7 to North Wembley. Only the route along the Reliefs and out on the slows via Sudbury or Wembley is signed (I believe).
I wonder if the issue is route retention for this section………
With the possession strategy when slows are through Wembley Central until 1200 on Sunday (currently three weeks out of 8) it rules the service out. The possession at Watford would also be a factor if terminating there..

 

[The Planner]

I think the bit of fasts not signed is West London Jn / Willesden No 7 to North Wembley. Only the route along the Reliefs and out on the slows via Sudbury or Wembley is signed (I believe).
I wonder if the issue is route retention for this section………
With the possession strategy when slows are through Wembley Central until 1200 on Sunday (currently three weeks out of 8) it rules the service out. The possession at Watford would also be a factor if terminating there..

Thats the one.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the bit of fasts not signed is West London Jn / Willesden No 7 to North Wembley. Only the route along the Reliefs and out on the slows via Sudbury or Wembley is signed (I believe).
I wonder if the issue is route retention for this section………
With the possession strategy when slows are through Wembley Central until 1200 on Sunday (currently three weeks out of 8) it rules the service out. The possession at Watford would also be a factor if terminating there..

That makes sense - this Southern service is booked fast line from Watford Junction to North Wembley Junction when platform 10 is unavailable.

Realtime Trains - 2O81 2326 Watford Junction to Clapham Junction

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

and has to go to Bourne End on the fast lines for its reversal.

Realtime Trains - 5M73 2321 Watford Junction to Watford Junction

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I can't find any booked use of the fast lines by Southern north of Bourne End though. Southern don't generally run north of Watford under two track railway arrangements.

 

[TransportHub]

Southern Drivers only sign the fast lines north of North Wembley Jn, however they have no booked work LTP over the fasts so some drivers will refuse to drive on the fasts. Especially through the Watford tunnels as you cannot see one line from the other to sign it by association

LTP (Long Term Plan)

 

[siemens]

Is there any updates on TFL (London Overground) taking over this service? I am sure that i read somewhere a few years ago that TFL (London Overground) were looking in to take over these South Croydon to Milton Keynes Central trains? Or has the Corona Virus now cancelled this plan?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any updates on TFL (London Overground) taking over this service? I am sure that i read somewhere a few years ago that TFL (London Overground) were looking in to take over these South Croydon to Milton Keynes Central trains? Or has the Corona Virus now cancelled this plan?

We had a thread in 2017, the Gibb report? about something or other had suggested it. Much of the initial stuff seems random wobble. By the third page of that thread I posted that Modern Railways had subsequently reported that it wasn’t happening:

Milton Keynes to South Croydon service

There are proposals for London Overground to take over this service read it in the latest issue of Modern Railways not only would it improve service frequencies it would surely see Oyster extended to Milton Keynes and the rolling stock would be class 319's as well so I'd like that:D What's...

www.railforums.co.uk

I think various proposed LO takeovers of the whole of SN’s metro routes have also come up periodically. I suppose they’d take over the route by default.

I expect there’s also the possibility that LO could run SN’s peak extra short workings on the WLL, the trains that run in DC only, but that’s a different service.

 

[greatkingrat]

I expect there’s also the possibility that LO could run SN’s peak extra short workings on the WLL, the trains that run in DC only, but that’s a different service.

This is already happening - the Shepherds Bush terminators have already been transferred to London Overground (although at present they are not actually running due to Covid).

 

[swt_passenger]

This is already happening - the Shepherds Bush terminators have already been transferred to London Overground (although at present they are not actually running due to Covid).

I hadn’t noticed that, but I suppose it’s gone under the radar in current circumstances. Was it ever publicised?

I see they’re in RTT as Q paths, but currently cancelled. And they run all day, as opposed to SN’s peak only services.

 

[87015]

No connection between the two. The (running some time ever maybe) extra LO ones are long standing TFL aspiration and pre-date Southerns reduction from early COVID days with no overlap on paths.

 

[zwk500]

I hadn’t noticed that, but I suppose it’s gone under the radar in current circumstances. Was it ever publicised?

I see they’re in RTT as Q paths, but currently cancelled. And they run all day, as opposed to SN’s peak only services.

I don't think it ever actually operated, so there was no publicity put out. AIUI it remains a TFL aspiration, though subject to passenger levels.

I think various proposed LO takeovers of the whole of SN’s metro routes have also come up periodically. I suppose they’d take over the route by default.

Proposals are frequently made, mostly by GLA members rather than TfL, for TfL to be given control of London Metro services (of vary definitions). There's a thread about the North Kent & Bexleyheath lines from a couple of months ago that suggested Dartford or even Gravesend. Some are more serious than others.

 

[A60stock]

Was at shepherds bush around 7pm on Saturday. The last Southern service going north was around 4pm. I still saw East Croydon services but nothing going North, so I had to use LO and change at WJ for Harrow + W.

Guessing the Southern service shuts down early on a Sat?

 

[JonathanH]

Was at shepherds bush around 7pm on Saturday. The last Southern service going north was around 4pm. I still saw East Croydon services but nothing going North, so I had to use LO and change at WJ for Harrow + W.

Guessing the Southern service shuts down early on a Sat?

Line closure on Saturday evening so the service only ran between East Croydon and Shepherds Bush on Saturday after the 1654 departure from Shepherds Bush to Milton Keynes Central - looks like the slow lines were shut all the way to Milton Keynes.

Normally it runs (to Watford Junction) until close of service. Last Milton Keynes departure from Shepherds Bush at 1754, last Watford Junction departure from Shepherds Bush at 2253.

 

[A60stock]

How exactly do services reverse at Shepherds Bush?

 

[Dibbo4025]

How exactly do services reverse at Shepherds Bush?

Up to North Pole and reverse in the up siding there

 

[swt_passenger]

Up to North Pole and reverse in the up siding there

The reversing siding being the remains of the original Eurostar depot exit line IIRC? Since the Hitachi IEP conversion that line had been lifted within the depot?

 

[zwk500]

The reversing siding being the remains of the original Eurostar depot exit line IIRC? Since the Hitachi IEP conversion that line had been lifted within the depot?

The reversing siding is on the opposite (east) side to the Depot (west). The connection to North Pole depot of the WLL remains in place.

 

[greatkingrat]

Originally there was access to the depot from both the west and east side of the WLL, so yes, the turnback siding was previously part of the depot access.

 

[Sm5]

Ive used this route a couple of times recently, loadings are generally pretty good (used on a Saturday / Monday this month).

it takes the quirky route to the KO line, offering good views of Wembley yard including a stop in the middle of nowhere (mitre bridge) to do the ACDC swap, uses the “semi”fast lines at Wembley (as opposed to the WCML fast or the slow/shared tube), and so makes a semi-fast service in place of an all stations, it is used by passengers to “speedup” a journey before hopping to slower services down the line. It also gives the North access to Westfield at Shepherds bush.

I‘m not convinced its being used by Manchester -Brighton passengers any more, or Avanti to Southern connections either, but its definitely well used, however….

Its fortunate that the track geometry prevents slow line to KO line access, doing without this semi-fast service or withdrawing it and forcing changing at Willesden Jn would be very uncomfortable for many northerly based Westfield shoppers, there isnt another way.

How comfortable is a 378 going to be on a Milton Keynes semi-fast, and how long before LO would want it to be an all stations, or drop it totally and force changes at Willesden jn ? - I wouldnt trust LO.

Getting from North London to Clapham is also a quite good timing compared to the crossing London on the tube, and with all the furniture re-arranging at Euston, giving it a bit more hype might be helpful, however conversely as Wembley Central is a narrow platform underground tunnel with high speed services through it, they close the platform between stopping services as its not ideal… so presumably thats why this service goes out as far as Milton Keynes, and makes it an attractive semi-fast into London, Watford and Wembley for other services…

So if Southern withdrew, perhaps Thameslink with a restored Brighton service to Milton Keynes would be a better option ?
I think the giant killing miss here is not getting a link from North Pole to the new Old Oak station, it would give the South a feed to HS2 without going via central London.

in short it feels like what it is, a bunch of left overs joined up into a single route, and on balance looks to be successful in what it does, and will continue after HS2.

 

[swt_passenger]

…How comfortable is a 378 going to be on a Milton Keynes semi-fast, and how long before LO would want it to be an all stations, or drop it totally and force changes at Willesden jn ? - I wouldnt trust LO.

Even in the unlikely event of LO taking over the route all the way to Milton Keynes, you cannot automatically assume they’d use 378s, or even their up to date equivalent, the 710s. The existing fleet is spoken for with the present network and frequencies, they‘d need to decide on appropriate stock and layout if it happened.

 

[Kite159]

I suspect if LO take over the route, they will simply terminate it at Watford Junction and expect passengers to change for stations further north.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect if LO take over the route, they will simply terminate it at Watford Junction and expect passengers to change for stations further north.

Though that would need a change to LNR services, because the Southern provides one of the stopping services which would need to be replaced.

I personally hope it stays as it is, it's quite useful.

 

[JonathanH]

Though that would need a change to LNR services, because the Southern provides one of the stopping services which would need to be replaced.

I personally hope it stays as it is, it's quite useful.

Apart from the stop at Tring the off-peak Southern service (xx12 from Milton Keynes) is just duplication for the Northampton slow (xx24 from Milton Keynes) between Milton Keynes and Watford Junction with the Milton Keynes starter on the opposite side of the hour (xx57 from Milton Keynes). If the Tring stop could be put in the xx24 from Milton Keynes and in the spirit of removing duplication, losing the Southern service north of Watford Junction would still leave a half-hourly slow from Milton Keynes to Euston.

 

[Hadders]

So if Southern withdrew, perhaps Thameslink with a restored Brighton service to Milton Keynes would be a better option ?

Southern and Thameslink are the same company, Govia Thameslink Railway. The branding on the outside of the train isn't really an issue.