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Minimum Service Levels Bill receives Royal Assent

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whoosh

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As far as I’m aware this cannot be applied retrospectively, so as long as the unions keep re balloting on the original mandate which they can do indefinitely it won’t apply to this dispute.

Not the case I'm afraid:

"Minimum service regulations may be framed so as to have effect in relation to any strike that takes place after the day on which the regulations come into force, even if—
(a) notice of the strike under section 234A was given on or before the day on which the regulations come into force,
or
(b) the date of the ballot in respect of the strike was on or before the day on which the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023 comes into force."

But as I mentioned up thread, there is still a right for union members not to cross picket lines and the fact that upwards of 90 percent of drivers continue to vote for strike action , suggests at best you would get maybe 10 percent of the workforce prepared to cross the picket line.

"234E Work notices: no protection if union fails to take reasonable steps

(1) Where an employer gives a trade union a work notice in relation to a strike, an act done by the union to induce a person to take part, or to continue to take part, in the strike is not protected as respects that person’s employer if— (a) the work notice is given in accordance with section 234C, and
(b) the union fails to take reasonable steps to ensure that all members of the union who are identified in the work notice comply with the notice.

(2) In proceedings in tort that are brought against a trade union in reliance on paragraph (b) of subsection (1), any loss that would have been suffered even if the union had taken the reasonable steps mentioned in that paragraph is to be disregarded in calculating any amount to be awarded against the union by way of damages."

So basically the Union is on the hook for damages if people who are issued work notices, strike on the day they have a work notice.

Does this law specifically state that it is the Unions responsibility to provide staff or is the TOC liable for the minimum service level ?

The employer will issue the work notice. The Union will be liable if a member of staff who has been issued a work notice, strikes on the day mentioned in the work notice.
 
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dk1

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It's taking time, but as the older staff retire the railway unions are (thankfully) gradually becoming less relevant. Tick, tock.

If anything I find it's becoming even more relevant with the younger members that I see these days. They are very enthusiastic and involved with the unions.
 

SouthStand

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so what's the plan then ? Get rid of unions, everyone in the country on zero hour contracts and minimum wage ? Or get rid of minimum wage and just get whatever you are given ?

Get rid of maternity and paternity leave ? Go sick and get fired ?

The public are losing sympathy with the rail unions, and teachers for that matter. I've worked in the NHS for over 30 years and have never taken industrial action, although the public are generally still behind us if we choose to.
 

r1_biker

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The public are losing sympathy with the rail unions, and teachers for that matter. I've worked in the NHS for over 30 years and have never taken industrial action, although the public are generally still behind us if we choose to.
I was actually incredibly angry at NHS staff for the extremely poor turn out on the last ballot. I believe the unions have an important part to play and I need to turn out and vote as part of my place in my union.
 

northwichcat

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It really isn't. You don't get to revise history just to suit a point of view you hold.

In post #70, you said "Class refers to the type of work you do". Train driver is a working class job. It always was, it always will be. Nobody is looking at me after a shift, clothing and skin/hair covered in grease from couplings/engines/diesel, and thinking "now THERE'S a middle class man". Nobody sees me walking in from a shift at 5 in the morning, or setting off at midnight, and thinks it either. I'm (literally) a blue-collar worker (except for my jackets, the collars of which are orange (and black, from said grease).

Historically passenger train drivers may have got on steam trains in overalls and done hard manual labour for a few hours, then gone home looking like they needed a bath. However, I don't know what train operator you work for if you think the train driver role hasn't evolved. (Maybe you just shunt trains around at a depot?) The train drivers who work Pendolinos dress like managers. In fact, correction they dress smarter than managers in other industries. They'll be managers travelling down to London at 5am that are more casually dressed than the driver.

If coal miners had been given a job title of energy resourcer, would you say that an engineer working in green energy in 2023 on £50,000 is working class? The train driver role has evolved just as much since the railways started in Britain.
 

uglymonkey

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And what should the unions have done?

Should the threat of further anti-union legislation meant that the unions cease industrial action and accept whatever they were given?

Oh, and as for the use of the term scab for strikebreaker? Still very much in use on the railway and if I'm honest I really don't see the problem with it. If you're morally bankrupt enough to undermine your colleagues, then I can't hardly imagine being called a name would really bother you much.
Blimey! I thought we were in the 21st century, not the 19th!
 

northwichcat

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so what's the plan then ? Get rid of unions, everyone in the country on zero hour contracts and minimum wage ? Or get rid of minimum wage and just get whatever you are given ?

Get rid of maternity and paternity leave ? Go sick and get fired ?

It would be nice if better minimum employment standards in law made the unions even less relevant. Almost regulating them to advisory body for members who have individual disputes with their employer/managers. Why would anyone would to forfeit pay as part of a process for something they should have anyway? Of course the RMT backed Brexit that makes it easier for a government to completly remove employment rights from law. Both Boris Johnson and Liz Truss had plans to get that "Brexit benefit" through parliament.
 

r1_biker

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It would be nice if better minimum employment standards in law made the unions even less relevan. Almost, regulating them to advisory body when members have individual disputes with their employer. Why would anyone would to forfeir pay as part of a process for something they should have anyway? Of course the RMT backed Brexit that makes it easier for a government to completly remove employment rights from law. Both Boris Johnson and Liz Truss had plans to get that "Brexit benefit" through parliament.
completely agree, but I dont trust any employer or government to give us something out of the generosity of their hearts, that upsets the profit.
 

ar10642

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I'm 100% working class thank you. I was born working class and will die working class.

Money doesn't buy you class thanks.

What does it mean then? A funny accent?

so what's the plan then ? Get rid of unions, everyone in the country on zero hour contracts and minimum wage ? Or get rid of minimum wage and just get whatever you are given ?

Get rid of maternity and paternity leave ? Go sick and get fired ?

Most workers aren't in unions
 

northwichcat

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I was actually incredibly angry at NHS staff for the extremely poor turn out on the last ballot. I believe the unions have an important part to play and I need to turn out and vote as part of my place in my union.

If you're genuinely striking over pay, there's a limit to how long you can continue to strike before running into financial issues and union's hardship funds aren't infinite. Strikes lasting years is not something every worker can afford.

completely agree, but I dont trust any employer or government to give us something out of the generosity of their hearts, that upsets the profit.

In competitive industries low pay means you lose employees and end up paying more to hire and train new staff. In the long run it may be cheaper to give your lower paid workers a 10% pay rise, then to worry about it reducing profits.
 

ComUtoR

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"234E Work notices: no protection if union fails to take reasonable steps

(1) Where an employer gives a trade union a work notice in relation to a strike, an act done by the union to induce a person to take part, or to continue to take part, in the strike is not protected as respects that person’s employer if— (a) the work notice is given in accordance with section 234C, and
(b) the union fails to take reasonable steps to ensure that all members of the union who are identified in the work notice comply with the notice.

This is going to be the important part.

The employer will issue the work notice. The Union will be liable if a member of staff who has been issued a work notice, strikes on the day mentioned in the work notice.

They appear to only become liable if they don't take "reasonable steps". Once the work notice gets issued then what is reasonable ? If the Union sends out a notice to those who are named on the work notice stating that it is their responsibility to ensure they attend work, that would be reasonable. Short of physically escorting someone to work, there is little anyone can do to force you to go to work.
 

r1_biker

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Most workers aren't in unions
22% are in unions. So get rid of the unions or get more unions into the workplace like people are trying at Amazon and McDonald's ?

If you're genuinely striking over pay, there's a limit to how long you can continue to strike before running into financial issues and union's hardship funds aren't infinite. Strikes lasting years is not something every worker can afford.



In competitive industries low pay means you lose employees and end up paying more to hire anda train new staff. In the long run it may be cheaper to give your lower paid workers a 10% pay rise, then to worry about it reducing profits.
Point 1. Turn out and vote against the strike, at least turn up.

Point 2. Isnt that the railway wage increase. Competition between TOCs ?
 

greatkingrat

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"234E Work notices: no protection if union fails to take reasonable steps

(1) Where an employer gives a trade union a work notice in relation to a strike, an act done by the union to induce a person to take part, or to continue to take part, in the strike is not protected as respects that person’s employer if— (a) the work notice is given in accordance with section 234C, and
(b) the union fails to take reasonable steps to ensure that all members of the union who are identified in the work notice comply with the notice.

(2) In proceedings in tort that are brought against a trade union in reliance on paragraph (b) of subsection (1), any loss that would have been suffered even if the union had taken the reasonable steps mentioned in that paragraph is to be disregarded in calculating any amount to be awarded against the union by way of damages."

So basically the Union is on the hook for damages if people who are issued work notices, strike on the day they have a work notice.
It's not quite that simple. While the union can't encourage members not to work, I don't see how they can be held liable if individual members make their own decision not to come into work. The union can't go round people's houses and drag them into work, so they could argue they have taken all reasonable steps.
 

Gemz91

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What century are you in using that terminology?

I have never met anyone in Ambulance service, fire and rescue, nuclear industry, Education, or border force etc that would describe themselves as working class.

I’m a train driver and I describe myself as working class. Although you didn’t add transport workers to your list, so I assume you consider transport workers as working class?
 

Horizon22

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The unions just have to adapt to changes. They've adapted to the increase notice for strikes, it hasn't prevented workers going on strike. I don't see where it states that certain people will be blocked from striking. They just can't all go on strike at the same time. Instead of the RMT calling a strike on Thursday, followed by one on Saturday they'll probably call a strike starting on Thursday and ending on Saturday with 33% of workers on strike at any time. To me, it doesn't sound like there's any attack on an individual's right to strike, it'll just create significantly more admin work for unions calling lengthy strike action.

That might be the sort of way they’ll have to do it.

agreed, so the question is get 78% into a union ? or get rid of the remaining union

Why is it a question? It’s just stating that most people aren’t in a union for better or for worse.
 

Thirteen

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Isn't MSL a means not to have more services on strikes day but to make unions more liable to being sued?

I'm a bit confused about MSL for Ambulance services, I thought during a strike, they have people on call for life and limb cover.
 

Annetts key

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This is 2023 not 1983.
And how are things materially different? People still need an income to buy food, clothes, pay for somewhere to live etc. Inflation/rising prices still erode the living standards of people. Hence quite rightly they don’t want to lose out. Similarly, we are supposed to be improving family life, not eroding it further.

As for this law, well quite frankly the government have been spoiling for this kind of thing for a while. And sadly the actions of the unions across all sectors has helped this along, despite them all being very aware that this was a possibility. As a long standing union member I am deeply saddened by its implementation and angry at the union movement for having slept-walked into this.
Do you honestly think that an anti-trade union CONservative government were not going to introduce legislation like this? They were going to bring this in regardless. The only difference is in which excuses they get to use.

Seriously? So for example airline pilots are working class, but people who work in shops aren't?
People can define “working class” anyway they like. However, in reality, there are really only five groups that I can think of:
  • People who have to go to work to obtain enough money to live on. This includes the self employed who have to work.
  • People who already have enough money to live on, or have enough income from savings and investments, or from income from property or similar. Hence don’t have to work if they don’t choose to.
  • People who rely on the income from their partner or family.
  • Pensioners who have enough income, hence don’t have to work.
  • People who don’t have enough income, or who are unable to work, and hence rely on benefits.
Of course there are a lot of people who think they are middle class. But how many could survive without benefits if they were unable to work for six months or more (not including sick pay)? In other words, really, they ARE working class.

Yes, many may disagree with the above, but then it very quickly becomes semantics where the division is between each “class”. Especially as what is skilled work is also a grey area. The work that I do for example, is skilled work, but a train driver is on more money than me. And if I were to work overtime, I would get paid nearly the same or more than my manager. So which of us, if any, is classed as middle class?

Given the massive subsidies the taxpayer gives to the UK rail industry,the least we can expect is for employees to turn up for work when they are legally obliged to do so.
Withdrawal of labour as a protest against their employer (which is what a strike is) is perfectly legal. Yes, an employee is breaking their contract of employment. But that situation has existed for many years. It’s in principle, no different to breaking any other contract between two parties.

The alternative is forcing people to work, which is sailing very close towards slavery…

Also the rail industry: why can't we hire enough people?
Because of three things:
  • The government doesn’t actually want the railways to employ enough people, as thats too expensive.
  • Employees are leaving due to not liking the erosion of terms and conditions/social life/home life/family life or because they can earn similar or more money in other jobs.
  • The railway is, in some areas having difficulty recruiting young people, they want a social life, not a job with horrible roster/link and having to work weekends and shifts.

As I said, this is 2023 not 1983...
You can say that as often as you like. It does not change the facts. An unhappy workforce is ALWAYS bad for a company or organisation. If they can’t take action in one area, they will find another way.

The reality is in a skilled profession such as a train driver, the company cannot physically sack everyone who refuses to cross a picket line without completely destroying the train service.

Dismissing some colleagues but not others would surely lead to legal challenges of discrimination and unfair dismissals

Although this may work in other sectors and some roles, I genuinely cannot see this working completely at all for the Railway sector, so long as union members remain as collective as they currently are.
Yes, the Government may win a battle, but will they win the longer war? That’s very debatable. It costs both time AND money to recruit and train skilled staff. Members here have already seen the results when there are not enough trained and competent train crew. Now imagine that across a much larger part of the country, maybe across the whole mainland U.K. rail network.

Not any more. Under the terms of the Bill, if you are given a notice requiring you to work and you do not, the company can take disciplinary action against you. Whether there is a picket line or not is irrelevant.
Withdrawal of labour/strike/failing to report for duty/work is already breaking your contract of employment. There is limited protection if it’s official action by a union. But this doesn’t stop an employer from dismissing an employee. And there is no protection for unofficial action. So, it does not really change anything much for individual employees.

If a union is prevented from taking official action, if the workforce are angry enough, they may just walk out anyway (unofficial strike). And none of the current laws can do anything about that.

The solution, as ALWAYS, is for meaningful negotiations to take place. Unfortunately the current CONservative government prefer to talk down to people and try to order them about.

It's taking time, but as the older staff retire the railway unions are (thankfully) gradually becoming less relevant. Tick, tock.
Why is railway union membership holding steady then?

Not the case I'm afraid:

"Minimum service regulations may be framed so as to have effect in relation to any strike that takes place after the day on which the regulations come into force, even if—
(a) notice of the strike under section 234A was given on or before the day on which the regulations come into force,
or
(b) the date of the ballot in respect of the strike was on or before the day on which the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023 comes into force."



"234E Work notices: no protection if union fails to take reasonable steps

(1) Where an employer gives a trade union a work notice in relation to a strike, an act done by the union to induce a person to take part, or to continue to take part, in the strike is not protected as respects that person’s employer if— (a) the work notice is given in accordance with section 234C, and
(b) the union fails to take reasonable steps to ensure that all members of the union who are identified in the work notice comply with the notice.

(2) In proceedings in tort that are brought against a trade union in reliance on paragraph (b) of subsection (1), any loss that would have been suffered even if the union had taken the reasonable steps mentioned in that paragraph is to be disregarded in calculating any amount to be awarded against the union by way of damages."

So basically the Union is on the hook for damages if people who are issued work notices, strike on the day they have a work notice.



The employer will issue the work notice. The Union will be liable if a member of staff who has been issued a work notice, strikes on the day mentioned in the work notice.
So, instead, an employee may as well go in and then sit in the mess room ALL shift while going through EVERY company document rereading the rules, instructions, standards etc... They will have complied with the requirement to report for duty/work.
 
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SouthStand

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And how are things materially different? People still need an income to buy food, clothes, pay for somewhere to live etc. Inflation/rising prices still erode the living standards of people. Hence quite rightly they don’t want to lose out. Similarly, we are supposed to be improving family life, not eroding it further.


Do you honestly think that an anti-trade union CONservative government were not going to introduce legislation like this? They were going to bring this in regardless. The only difference is in which excuses they get to use.


People can define “working class” anyway they like. However, in reality, there are really only five groups that I can think of:
  • People who have to go to work to obtain enough money to live on. This includes the self employed who have to work.
  • People who already have enough money to live on, or have enough income from savings and investments, or from income from property or similar. Hence don’t have to work if they don’t choose to.
  • People who rely on the income from their partner or family.
  • Pensioners who have enough income, hence don’t have to work.
  • People who don’t have enough income, or who are unable to work, and hence rely on benefits.
Of course there are a lot of people who think they are middle class. But how many could survive without benefits if they were unable to work for six months or more (not including sick pay)? In other words, really, they ARE working class.

Yes, many may disagree with the above, but then it very quickly becomes semantics where the division is between each “class”. Especially as what is skilled work is also a grey area. The work that I do for example, is skilled work, but a train driver is on more money than me. And if I were to work overtime, I would get paid nearly the same or more than my manager. So which of us, if any, is classed as middle class?


Withdrawal of labour as a protest against their employer (which is what a strike is) is perfectly legal. Yes, an employee is breaking their contract of employment. But that situation has existed for many years. It’s in principle, no different to breaking any other contract between two parties.

The alternative is forcing people to work, which is sailing very close towards slavery…


Because of three things:
  • The government doesn’t actually want the railways to employ enough people, as thats too expensive.
  • Employees are leaving due to not liking the erosion of terms and conditions/social life/home life/family life or because they can earn similar or more money in other jobs.
  • The railway is, in some areas having difficulty recruiting young people, they want a social life, not a job with horrible roster/link and having to work weekends and shifts.


You can say that as often as you like. It does not change the facts. An unhappy workforce is ALWAYS bad for a company or organisation. If they can’t take action in one area, they will find another way.


Yes, the Government may win a battle, but will they win the longer war? That’s very debatable. It costs both time AND money to recruit and train skilled staff. Members here have already seen the results when there are not enough trained and competent train crew. Now imagine that across a much larger part of the country, maybe across the whole mainland U.K. rail network.


Withdrawal of labour/strike/failing to report for duty/work is already breaking your contract of employment. There is limited protection if it’s official action by a union. But this doesn’t stop an employer from dismissing an employee. And there is no protection for unofficial action. So, it does not really change anything much for individual employees.

If a union is prevented from taking official action, if the workforce are angry enough, they may just walk out anyway (unofficial strike). And none of the current laws can do anything about that.

The solution, as ALWAYS, is for meaningful negotiations to take place. Unfortunately the current CONservative government prefer to talk down to people and try to order them about.


Why is railway union membership holding steady then?


Why is railway union membership holding steady then?
So, instead, an employee may as well go in and then sit in the mess room ALL shift while going through EVERY company document rereading the rules, instructions, standards etc... They will have complied with the requirement to report for duty/work.

I didn't say the membership numbers were declining, I said their relevance was lessening.
 

Annetts key

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Historically passenger train drivers may have got on steam trains in overalls and done hard manual labour for a few hours, then gone home looking like they needed a bath. However, I don't know what train operator you work for if you think the train driver role hasn't evolved. (Maybe you just shunt trains around at a depot?) The train drivers who work Pendolinos dress like managers. In fact, correction they dress smarter than managers in other industries. They'll be managers travelling down to London at 5am that are more casually dressed than the driver.

If coal miners had been given a job title of energy resourcer, would you say that an engineer working in green energy in 2023 on £50,000 is working class? The train driver role has evolved just as much since the railways started in Britain.
Well, this is the problem with trying to define middle class… It can mean many different things to different people. Hence the term is rather meaningless. The house of commons is SUPPOSED to represent the common person/people. But you generally don’t see many poor or commoners as politicians these days do you?
 

Towers

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The train drivers who work Pendolinos dress like managers. In fact, correction they dress smarter than managers in other industries. They'll be managers travelling down to London at 5am that are more casually dressed than the driver.
Plenty of drivers also wear a polo shirt and cargo trousers or shorts (or indeed varying selections of their own, completely non-uniform stuff depending on levels of uniform policy adherence at their location!), and work in tatty driving cabs with no air conditioning in the summer and with wind and rain coming in through every nook and cranny in the winter. Not every train driver is sat at the front of a Pendo doing 125mph up and down the mainline!

The job typically requires no entry qualifications and is just as likely to be carried out by a person whose previous employment was emptying dustbins as it is by someone with a degree. It’s a very well paid and satisfying career, but it’s very definitely not an executive job. Those talking about pilots are comparing apples & oranges, for various reasons!
 

Bald Rick

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Point 2. Isnt that the railway wage increase. Competition between TOCs ?

That‘s actually a key point in the drivers’ dispute. Mick really doesn’t like having all the DfT TOCs with the same offer, and with Government protecting losses, as he can’t play them off against each other.
 

Annetts key

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I didn't say the membership numbers were declining, I said their relevance was lessening.
Do you really think membership would be holding up if members did not think that that unions were relevant? Away from newsworthy industrial disputes (members don’t actually really want to strike), unions normally work with employers to avoid industrial disputes. How is that a lessening of relevance?

That‘s actually a key point in the drivers’ dispute. Mick really doesn’t like having all the DfT TOCs with the same offer, and with Government protecting losses, as he can’t play them off against each other.
But the current CONservative government can’t prevent competition from other industries, from open access operators, other private railway companies or operators controlled by regional governments.

If employees are not happy, they will look for alternatives. If enough leave, any savings in holding their pay down, or imposing working practices that they don’t like will eventually be offset by the increased costs of having to hire and train more new staff.
 
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choochoochoo

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So, instead, an employee may as well go in and then sit in the mess room ALL shift while going through EVERY company document rereading the rules, instructions, standards etc... They will have complied with the requirement to report for duty/work.

Drivers can also drive their trains at a speed they deem safe !! Linespeed is a limit not a target !!

So I'll be driving my trains very slow on MSL days. Ruining any form of timetable the planners attempt to make.
 

NI 271

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Historically passenger train drivers may have got on steam trains in overalls and done hard manual labour for a few hours, then gone home looking like they needed a bath. However, I don't know what train operator you work for if you think the train driver role hasn't evolved. (Maybe you just shunt trains around at a depot?) The train drivers who work Pendolinos dress like managers. In fact, correction they dress smarter than managers in other industries. They'll be managers travelling down to London at 5am that are more casually dressed than the driver.

If coal miners had been given a job title of energy resourcer, would you say that an engineer working in green energy in 2023 on £50,000 is working class? The train driver role has evolved just as much since the railways started in Britain.
There’s this thing called ‘freight’. Maybe google could help you?
 

Bald Rick

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But the current CONservative government can’t prevent competition from other industries, from open access operators, other private railway companies or operators controlled by regional governments.

agreed, but as the DfT operators are roughly 2/3 of the ‘market’, they will have a very strong influence on the market.


So I'll be driving my trains very slow on MSL days. Ruining any form of timetable the planners attempt to make.

Your choice of course, but you’ll get a ‘please explain‘ for the delay and be on the naughty step.
 

NI 271

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FOC GBrf currently paying 66.3k that's around Avanti WC money. A bit of RDW and you can earn +80k without trying.
Sorry, are you suggesting someone earning that is in some way not working class, despite frequently going home from work ****ten up to the eyeballs the way no middle class person does?

Because if so, you’re no less deluded than the others who mistakenly think that decent pay = middle class. It’s a blue collar job, with no bar to entry other than an ability to pass the assessment. What are the middle class professions that don’t need qualifications?
 
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