• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Mining subsidence etc...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pigeon

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2015
Messages
804
IIRC, BR spent millions fixing the mining subsidence and upgrading the Cudworth route and then - within a couple of years of completing the job - changed their minds and shut it, having diverted the traffic onto the Swinton & Knottingley joint line as far as Moorthorpe.

(Replying in a new thread to accommodate extended waffle irrelevant to the original.)

This Is Complicated :)

The route was originally constructed by the North Midland with two tracks, one medium-sized tunnel, and one LBV, of 13 arches, at 179 miles 43 chains. [LBV: Lord Blitherwit's Viaduct; a subclass of Lord Blitherwit's Infrastructure Feature, which is the class of items of infrastructure built in an unnecessarily complex/expensive/awkward manner to try and get some [k]nob with a lot of money to pack it in making a pain of himself. See also: LBT, Lord Blitherwit's Tunnel, as at Haddon, where there is so little need for a tunnel that in some places the earth is falling off the top of it; or LBC, Lord Blitherwit's Curve, at Saxby, which gave rise to an interaction between workarounds and geology that ended up rogering more of his estate than he'd have lost if he'd just let them get on with their original plans, arf arf.] By the 1880s, the Midland were finding that this was no longer enough, and added an extra pair of tracks - except over the awkward stretch with the tunnel, and one or two other minor holes that got filled in later. The remaining two-track section extended from a bit south of the LBV to a couple of miles north of the tunnel.

Once WW1 was out of the way, they got on with finishing that remaining stretch, although the Grouping came along while they were getting going and the Midland's enabling Act became part of the LMS Act of 1923. The ground around the tunnel was dug and blasted out to form a great big cutting, while the main line through the tunnel was still live with trains running on it, with only the minimum of actual closure to knock down bits of the tunnel structure itself - indeed I'm not sure that they didn't erect shielding within the tunnel so they could take it apart with the trains still running; and the remaining bridges, junctions etc. were also adapted to take four tracks.

It appears that there was a bit of argument over some of the bridges with the local council trying to get something for nothing; they were saying "when you rebuild these bridges, we want them made wider so we can widen the road underneath", to which the railway said "but we're not rebuilding them, we're just building an extra bit alongside and leaving the old bit as it is". What ended up being specified in the Act was a kind of compromise, where the railway were allowed to do that on condition that if they ever did need to rebuild the old half, they must get rid of the "centre pillar" when they did it - apparently the idea was to split the road either side of the pillar until that was done. The Act specifies various bridges to which the "centre pillar" condition applies, and one of them is the LBV.

What was actually built for the LBV, however, was such that the idea of a "centre pillar" does not make sense. Only two pillars remain visible, and the road runs, with some constriction, through the full arch in between them. Of the two arches either side of those pillars, only half the width is still exposed. Two blue engineering brick abutments, with concrete transoms, extend across the full width of all four tracks; on the east side, where the new width was added, they support a steel girder span carrying the slow lines; on the west side, although the transoms are continuous with the east side and are all ready to carry a steel girder span should one be installed, they don't appear to support anything. The centrelines of the undersides of the two half-arches are some distance above the level of the transoms, so the original stonework vanishes unsupported into a mysterious dark void and what becomes of it within "noo-o-o-obody knows". [TODO: visit the location with a camera and torch on a long pole and see what dark secrets are thereby revealed.] The rest of the LBV, beyond the faces of the abutments, is entirely concealed beneath new fill, Lord Blitherwit himself now being too dead to object to its replacement with a conventional embankment plus bridge.

There is some suggestion that objections were raised to this construction on the grounds that the absence of a "centre pillar" precluded the possibility of splitting the road around it to gain width, so it wasn't strictly legal; however this faded out through a combination of fait accompli, the splitting idea not being a very good idea in the first place, and everyone getting sick of arguing over something so unimportant anyway. The LMS dug their heels in because they were fed up with the way the project was dragging on, apparently partly at least due to the contractor on this bit not being really up to it, and they wanted to get it over and done with; the council realised it was going to take forever even if they won the argument, and let it drop.

The entire area became increasingly badly affected by mining subsidence as time went on. All the lines crossing the coalfield were affected, the S&K just as badly as this one, if not worse. In 1955 Lord Blitherwit's house had to be knocked down to prevent it falling down of its own accord, because of all the holes that had been dug underneath it.

BR's project in the 60s to concentrate all Leeds services into a single station inevitably resulted in Central, having awkward unintegrated approaches and not being very "central" to the other two, getting the chop; but this raised the problem of how to get the prestigious expresses from the ECML into City without them getting tangled up with other services in the mass of junctions to the west of the station, as would happen with any straightforward reconnection of the approach of the GN Doncaster route. The solution was to additionally connect it in a less straightforward manner to the Farnley viaduct, giving ECML trains their very own approach to the station free of conflicts. It was, however, a rather roundabout approach - more or less inevitably - with a sequence of sharp, slow curves and junctions extending quite a distance out from the station, and only two tracks; the GN line itself also had only two tracks, and some significant wiggles and upsy-downsy bits. Nevertheless, it did the job as far as expresses via Doncaster went.

The Midland had always had the best route into Leeds of all the companies arriving there, being engineered by George Stephenson in accordance with his principles of minimising gradients and achieving the easiest possible run, and having had the early builder's advantage of being able to bagsy the best route. By now, also, nearly all of it had four tracks. It was in all ways a better alignment than the GN route, even in the days when that ran straightforwardly into Central.

In 1967 some knob called Arthur Dean decided, for no obvious reason beyond some eclectic and obscure ideology, to divert services off the Midland route, and instead run them up the S&K, with Leeds services diverging at Moorthorpe to share the two tracks and tortuous approaches to Leeds of the GN route with the Doncaster services. It didn't speed anything up; both routes were beset by subsidence slacks, and it introduced some significant extra junction/curve slacks on top. It also failed to make the best use of the already inadequate routing possibilities on the approaches to Leeds. It's not obvious to me what it did do, but it happened anyway.

The next "event" was that a chap called Noel Proudlock did some deep research into the relationship between mining operations and their subsequent effects on the running times achievable by trains going over the top of them, and came up with a system whereby, through liaison with the NCB, the duration, severity and extent of the speed restrictions required could be scientifically and accurately predicted in advance. He then set about analysing lines in the area according to this system. He discovered that a great many of the subsidence slacks were no longer necessary; the underlying seams had already been worked out, and the persistent rock'n'roll through the slacks was due not to continuing subsidence, but to nobody realising the subsidence was completed so now you could stop bodging it with ash ballast and get on with fettling it properly without all the work being wasted. He further calculated that if the appropriate permanent fettling was done on the Midland route, the timings for trains between Sheffield and Leeds/York could be significantly reduced. Consequently, from 1972 trains were gradually diverted back to the Midland route.

It did speed things up a bit, but it didn't work as well as it should have done and remained more "theoretical" than it should have been. Some trains were turned off at Oakenshaw to run via Wakefield, so they missed out on a goodly chunk of the advantage; and all trains suffered from the failure of the permanent fettling to be executed with promptness and dispatch. A good deal of it had been done in time for the new routings, but several significant slacks still remained, sprinkled along the route so as to preclude much useful acceleration in between; and dealing with them ended up as one of those things that drags on and on and on.

This wasn't originally supposed to happen. In the early/mid 70s the eventual arrival of the HSTs began to be anticipated, and routes identified on which - once there were enough of them - their characteristics could be used to advantage. The Midland route with its easy gradients and broad curvature was a particularly promising-looking candidate, with line speeds over 100mph or even 115 possible over much of it, albeit probably not the full 125. However, at this time the ECML still went through Selby. By the time there were enough HSTs for them to be used for this kind of route, the Selby diversion had been built, and especially with the reinstatement of the Mexborough curve it became just as quick for the York HSTs to blast down the ECML to Doncaster like Meat Loaf and turn off for Sheffield there, so the Midland route's potential advantage was superseded.

Somewhere around this time also the route suffered from the attitude of a Deanite chief civil engineer. Apparently this bloke took it upon himself to discard all the detailed scientific prediction that had been undertaken of the subsidence expected from the NCB's current plans in favour of making up his own narrative out of whole cloth, and painted to some critical meeting a picture of 13ft of subsidence occurring under a big river bridge. There was no evidential support for such a prediction, but apparently either nobody at the meeting actually knew that or else they were just too nesh to say anything, and so the black mark against the route was made part of the books.

Then when "sectorisation" was imposed it provided a whole new bunch of opportunities for bits of the railway to be clobbered by the fallout from dumb squabbles over who pays for what bit and who can wiggle out of it, instead of treating the railway system as, you know, like, a system. The S&K route still wasn't any better - it wasn't built as a fast route, and the fettling of its expired subsidence slacks had been similarly patchy and incomplete - but its existence alongside sectorisation enabled the Midland route to be killed off in pursuit of some artificially-created accounting fiddle and the inferior alternative used exclusively.

And hanging over all this, throughout the period in question, was the spectre of the cowboy on contract number two, fifty years before. Or perhaps lurking chthonically under would be more accurate. What appears to have happened is that, as described above, they converted the LBV into a bridge plus embankment by tipping fill over the ends of it to bring the existing embankment up to the new abutments, without doing anything to ensure adequate compaction of the material under the arches. This left the masonry structure still bearing load, but entirely inaccessible for any kind of maintenance. And the inevitable result began to make itself felt around the start of the time under consideration.

BR seem to have been remarkably incompetent and clueless over a very protracted period about dealing with it, and it's hard to get a proper handle on exactly what the problem was and how it developed; more questions seem to arise than are answered. By 1972 it had already got itself its own name: the "Chevet slip", a search term for which Google currently returns precisely one result but will henceforth return two. It was considered the only one of the slacks that remained unfixed in 1972 that was likely to carry on remaining unfixed, but I get the impression that at that point they had yet to determine exactly what was causing it. It also doesn't seem to have been horribly bad yet: the fast lines were still open, and there was only a 40mph slack from 179 miles 27 chains to 179 miles 40 chains - which itself is slightly puzzling, since that's still 3 chains short of the LBV itself, and with the thing only having 13 arches and the bridge bit being in the middle, the slack seems to be just off the end of the concealed structure rather than over the structure itself.

Next we have a few postings around the internet from Michael Kaye (MK55A in various internet railway contexts), which are quite informative. His description is of the collapse of the invisible stonework as a sudden and catastrophic event, which had everyone freaking out and closing the fasts to find out what had happened; it also comes over as being something he remembers personally as happening when he already knew the route, which would put it a bit later than 1972 as he didn't start until 1973. This suggests that whatever they were doing about it in 1972 not only didn't work, but didn't even get as far as identifying the cause of the problem, which then a bit later on suddenly got much worse and found them still needing to find out what was up (or down).

It looks as if when they did figure out what it was, they threw up their hands in horror, gave up, and found a further reason to discount the route. They ended up first closing the fast lines and crossing everything onto the slows to pass that point, then they took the fast lines away, then they started routing everything along the slows all the way and allowing the fast lines to go derelict.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVQmkkd0bOM provides another interesting and puzzling bit of personal reminiscence. As they pass that stretch of track there is a pause in the merry party's discussion of their in-cab vile flatulence contest, and a Scottish bloke can be heard saying "this is where the banking collapsed, I remember that". He then talks about driving A4s and being diverted off the ECML, and I think he's saying that that's where he remembers it from. If so it would imply that it was already well known that there was a serious problem on this stretch, long enough ago for it to have influenced matters right from the start; and raises the question of why they hadn't been giving the serious problem serious attention long ago too.

It may not be significant, but the point at which he makes his comment is also significantly southward not only of the LBV itself but also of the south end of the 1972 extent of the slack; it appears to be about the location of the bridge over Haw Park Beck. It's probably just when he decides to speak, but it has to be said that the edge of the embankment does look more meagre there than at any other point nearby.

I think that pretty much covers what I know about it so far. Unfortunately I can't find any more whatever it was that I found originally about the arguments over widening the road or the dodgy contractor. At some point I want to go and look at the archived original plans for the final widening project and see what clues they give me. Most informative of course would be to get my hands on BR's maintenance records for it, but I guess that might be a bit too much of a hope.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
York
In connection with this line I've referred previously to an article by the Noel Proudlock that Pigeon mentions above, in the journal of the Railway Performance Society, Milepost 36¼ of July2015 pp.94-104. For anyone who can get at this magazine, the article if really worth reading as a clear and compelling account of how this potentially very fast route between Sheffield and Leeds came to be largely abandoned. Unfortunately it is not available on line and copyright prevents me from appending the text here.

Some people may have wondered why Britain's first 125-mph split was expensively put in at Colton or why the seemingly unimportant junction at Altofts was laid in for 60 over the divergence getting on to 50 yedars ago. Not only was the North Midland to be the fast route from Sheffield to Leeds, but Cross Country was to run via Normanton once again, and so those two junctions were designed for the best speeds possible for XC as well as (Colton) the ECML. There would also have been a reversion to the old alignment at Castleford to get a decent speeds there, and the long-planned (i.e. back in Midland days) fast lines at Normanton were to go in to give full-speed running there too. And the bridge-span was ready to go in at Parkgate to get a fast alignment for the down fast there. Alas for what might have been!

I think Pigeon is perhaps a little harsh on the Swinton & Knottingley, built by the Midland the the North Eastern to provide a better connection between their two systems avoiding the congestion in the Normanton area. The line itself is very well laid out, though with more severe gradients than Stephenson thought desirable for the North Midland (but it did, however, like all the other lines in the area suffer from severe mining subsidence), and it could have been a good fast railway. However, the much older section from Ferrybridge to Burton Salmon would always have remained slow, as it still does. And the curvature at Wath Road, though not nearly as bad as at so many diverging junctions, even today limits speed to 85 on what is otherwise of 100mph railway (and capable of more).

What it would be really interesting to know (if anyone out of curiosity has ever done the calculations) are what sort of Sheffield-York time would have been possible via Normanton if all the upgrading had been completed in comparison with what is now possible via Doncaster. I suggest that a net running time of 40 minutes should be easily possible non-stop via Doncaster. Could via Normanton ever have equalled that?
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
5,771
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
This Is Complicated :)
It certainly is! But thanks for the detailed explanation of the history of the lines in that area.

Next we have a few postings around the internet from Michael Kaye (MK55A in various internet railway contexts),

That will be ex-Holbeck and Leeds driver Mick Kaye, who is very knowledgeable about Yorkshire railway history.
 
Last edited:

Pigeon

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2015
Messages
804
Unfortunately it is not available on line

It is; the first result for a search for milepost 361 is http://www.railperf.org.uk/members/milepost/Milepost361.pdf

A great many of them are available on line, I'm not sure if it's all of them or not. But it did take me a while to work out how to express the "...and a quarter" (or whatever) bit in a form that a search engine could make something useful out of. None of the usual obvious variants on how to type things like that return anything useful, but the hint is on the cover: you have to use the "miles and number of quarters" style of designation that you would get from writing down a modern-style milepost without spaces, punctuation or formatting.

It is indeed an excellent article and one of the most informative sources I have been able to find. Highly recommended.

Another interesting article is this, which after much thrashing I have just managed to get Google to cough up. Mentions of the existence of an article from "the 80s" about route upgrades on this patch have been tantalising me for some time, but it's taken me until now to manage to find the thing itself. Turns out to be more about the "near future" than the "recent past" (relative to the date of publication), which isn't quite what I was hoping for, but still very good.

Brian Perren - Modern Railways - August 1983 said:
Sheffield-Leeds/York: re-routing in 1984

NEXT May, with the start of the 1984-85 timetable, the Eastern Region is to introduce new routeings for InterCity services between Sheffield and Leeds/York. Instead of running by way of the old Midland route from Swinton through Cudworth and Normanton to Altofts Junction thence Methley Junction (for services to/from Leeds) or Castleford (for services to/from York and beyond), Leeds trains will use the old Swinton and Knottingley (S&K) line to Moorthorpe where they will join the old Great Northern (GN) route through Wakefield (Westgate) and thence to Leeds, and trains to/from York and beyond will be rerouted to run by way of Mexborough to join the East Coast main line at Doncaster. There are a number of reasons for this interesting change. The two most important are the commercial benefits which will be obtained by Northeast-Southwest services calling at Doncaster, and investment and current financial savings to be achieved by reducing the two alternative passenger routes between Sheffield and Leeds to one.
To appreciate the background leading to the re-routeing decision it is necessary to go back to the original proposals for the Northeast-Southwest High Speed Train scheme, which was approved in June 1978. It will be recalled that the Department of Transport authorised the building of 18 HST sets and also approved - but only in principle - associated work on track and signalling costing £10.4million. Of this £10.4million, £2.6million was in respect of work on the ER part of the route between Horns Bridge (the London Midland/Eastern Region boundary between Clay Cross and Chesterfield) and Leeds/York. Following further study a detailed set of route improvement proposals between Horns Bridge and Leeds (Hunslet) by way of Altofts Junction - costing about £3.5million - was approved in June 1981, but proposals covering the section between Altofts Junction and Colton were deferred pending a re-evaluation and re-submission of the complete package comprising Eastern, London Midland and Western Region proposals. However, the proposals for Horns Bridge to Hunslet took into account four associated resignalling schemes - independently justified on their own merits, but part of the overall routeing strategy. They were:
(i) Horns Bridge to Brightside
(ii) Brightside to Cudworth
(iii) Cudworth to Methley Junction
(iv) Methley Junction to Leeds (Hunslet).
The foregoing proposals were based on the choice of the Midland route from Sheffield through Normanton to Leeds/ York. With a potential to raise line speeds to 100/115mph, it was ideal for primary passenger services and was less likely to be affected by subsidence problems than any other choice of route. But by 1982 these assumptions had been overtaken by events. The combined impact of economic recession and intensified competition from long distance buses badly affected British Rail's passenger business, necessitating drastic economies. The cash limits imposed on the British Railways Board by the Government meant that many investment proposals had to be deferred, curtailed or reviewed in depth. To adjust train services to a new lower level of business, services were reduced by an average of 10% and resources - in particular HSTs - were redeployed on routes where their financial return would be better. In many cases redeployment has enabled train service changes to be made which introduced revised routeings offering new journey opportunities. A case in point is the Northeast-Southwest route.
From next May, with the start of the 1984-85 timetable, the train service is to be completely recast. All services forming part of the Northeast/Northwest-Southwest/ South Wales/Thames Valley and South Coast group of trains will be affected, with the emphasis on providing new travel opportunities over long distances with the minimum number of changes of train. This will affect the ER in two important respects. Train services to/from Leeds will be changed. Frequency will be maintained, but the proportion of services formed by locomotive-hauled trains will be increased. Services to Newcastle will be rerouted at Sheffield to run via Doncaster, where they will form an integral part of a revised East Coast main line service; these will all be worked by HSTs. Doncaster is sufficiently important to be included in the Northeast-Southwest route, but considerable benefits will follow from integration with the East Coast main line HSTs. Between Doncaster and Newcastle Northeast-Southwest services will supplement East Coast trains and Doncaster will grow in importance as an interchange station. King's Cross-York semifasts will terminate at Doncaster, which will save train mileage. While the distance from Sheffield to York via Doncaster is 4½ miles longer than via Castleford, the journey time - including the Doncaster stop - is about the same. With the Selby Diversion fully operational at full line speeds by next May, HSTs will be able to run at 125mph for almost the whole distance from Doncaster to York.
Given this new situation the case for upgrading the Midland route from Sheffield to York no longer exists and trains to/from Leeds can be accommodated on the S&K as far as Moorthorpe, where they will diverge to join the Doncaster-Leeds line at South Kirkby Junction and will also serve Wakefield.

Track and resignalling improvement plans revised
Given the rerouteing decision all plans for trackwork and resignalling had to be revamped. Because of the way the various engineering proposals have been evaluated and submitted for approval - and as the geography of the area is itself complicated - it is preferable to describe previous and revised proposals together on a sector-by-sector basis.

Horns Bridge to Swinton Junction
Strictly speaking the major part of this section - the 13 miles between Horns Bridge and Sheffield Midland station - is not part of the re-routeing plans. However, it is an important part of the overall plan for upgrading the Northeast-Southwest route and the line speed will be raised to 90-95mph, apart from the restriction to 60mph at Dore. In passing one should note that this upgrading was originally justified for Northeast-Southwest HSTs, before the decision to use HSTs on the Midland route between St Pancras and Sheffield was made - but now Midland HSTs will of course also benefit. North of Sheffield Midland station work has not yet started, but the line speed will be raised to 100 mph where this is possible.

Swinton Junction to Moorthorpe
At present line speed on the S&K route between Swinton Junction and Moorthorpe is 75mph. The condition of track, general alignment and braking distance limitations imposed by the signalling are such that a number of works are necessary to raise the line speed to a desired level of 100 mph for HSTs. The approximate cost of the work is £524,000. Another restriction is that trains using the S&K route have to use the slow line between Aldwarke and Swinton, necessitating passage of 25mph crossovers to/from the fast lines at Sheffield Aldwarke Junction. Trackwork proposals include slewing the up and down Midland tracks between Swinton Junction and the old Wath Road Junction into the S&K lines. The speed through the slew will be 80 mph; as a result of the rerouteing proposals the route to/from Cudworth can be proposed for closure and, if approved, severed. At a number of locations between the new slew at Wath Road Junction and Moorthorpe, the route will be realigned for 100 mph. Existing signalling - which includes the last remaining pocket of semaphore signalling between Bristol and Leeds - will be replaced by multiple-aspect signalling giving adequate braking distances for HSTs running at 1OO mph and for locomotive-hauled trains running at 85mph. 100 mph braking distances for all trains is not thought to be financially justifiable.

Moorthorpe to Leeds
Separate plans for line speed improvements on the GN Doncaster-Leeds section are under study, but have yet to be approved. There is a potential for line speed improvements between South Kirkby Junction and Leeds which would reduce journey times over this section by four minutes, benefiting HST services to/from both the Southwest and King's Cross. The ER is at present examining the justification for the expenditure involved.

Aldwarke Junction-Mexborough East
Although Sheffield-York HSTs rerouted via Doncaster will - despite the additional distance and the Doncaster stop - take approximately the same time as now, all the time is gained on the East Coast main line between York and Doncaster. The section of route between Sheffield and Doncaster is severely restricted and a number of line speed improvements are necessary. Coming out of Sheffield on the Midland tracks, trains for Doncaster also have to pass over the 25mph crossing at Aldwarke Junction on to the old Great Central (GC) line. For the next three miles to Mexborough East line speed is only 50 mph, reduced to 15mph for passage of the Mexborough East-South curve. However, the junction at Aldwarke will soon be due for renewal and could be simplified giving a higher line speed; Mexborough East-South curve is also due for renewal and could be realigned raising the speed from 15 to 60mph. There is an alternative option: reinstatement of the curve between Swinton and Mexborough. This would require Parliamentary Powers, but would have two advantages. HSTs - plus the Sheffield-Doncaster local services - would use the potentially faster Midland tracks for a greater distance, and it would be possible to simplify the layout at Aldwarke and rationalise the GC route from there to Mexborough- East. These options are being studied. The South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive will be concerned with this proposal, as it supports the Sheffield-Doncaster local service and is studying a separate proposal to fund a new chord line linking the Midland and GC lines at Rotherham Holmes and to reopen Rotherham Central station.

Mexborough East-Doncaster
Line speed between Mexborough East and St James Junction, just outside Doncaster station, is at present 50 mph. With programmed renewals the condition of the track and alignment will be progressively improved enabling the speed to be raised to 70mph, except for the passage of Conisbrough Tunnel where clearances impose a limit of 50 mph. Existing signalling is suitable for the higher speeds. Physical constraints preclude further improvements at a reasonable level of costs. The new line speed will apply from May 1984.
There are some potential problems at Doncaster. The approach to/exit from the Sheffield line into/out of Doncaster station is through a ¾ mile single line restricted to 25mph. For the present the timetable will have to accept this constraint, but if East Coast electrification is approved a number of bridges in the area will have to be modified and this short bottleneck could then be doubled. Another problem is No 3 (up side) platform at Doncaster. Because of its limited length in the rear of the junction to Sheffield, it is not possible to use this for an HST routed to Sheffield. HSTs both to/from the Sheffield line will have to use the down island platform (Nos 4 and 8), but this is unlikely to be a particular problem. Doncaster station layout is signalled for such movements. Again, if there are any potential timing conflicts, the timetable will have to be adjusted.
This interesting package of proposals once again shows the changing pace of business development on BR and how parts of the network previously considered of secondary importance can be brought back into front line service.

52188309279_1435ce10fd_b.jpg

I think Pigeon is perhaps a little harsh on the Swinton & Knottingley, built by the Midland the the North Eastern to provide a better connection between their two systems avoiding the congestion in the Normanton area.

You're probably right. Sour grapes, I guess...

That will be ex-Holbeck and Leeds driver Mick Kaye, who is very knowledgeable about Yorkshire railway history.

Yes. A great deal of the most informative stuff to be found on websites dealing with the area seems to have come from him!
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
York
It is; the first result for a search for milepost 361 is http://www.railperf.org.uk/members/milepost/Milepost361.pdf

A great many of them are available on line, I'm not sure if it's all of them or not. But it did take me a while to work out how to express the "...and a quarter" (or whatever) bit in a form that a search engine could make something useful out of. None of the usual obvious variants on how to type things like that return anything useful, but the hint is on the cover: you have to use the "miles and number of quarters" style of designation that you would get from writing down a modern-style milepost without spaces, punctuation or formatting.
Interesting — via Google you can get straight to it, but if you go to the Railway Performance Society home page you find that downloads of Milepost are for members only. Thanks for quoting the very interesting Perren article — I couldn't manage to make Google cough it up for me.
 

Grumpy

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2010
Messages
1,070
In 1967 some knob called Arthur Dean decided, for no obvious reason beyond some eclectic and obscure ideology, to divert services off the Midland route, and instead run them up the S&K, with Leeds services diverging at Moorthorpe to share the two tracks and tortuous approaches to Leeds of the GN route with the Doncaster services.
Arthur Dean rose from a pupil at Halifax Secondary school to become the North East Region Chief Civil Engineer, was responsible for the Region's modernisation programme, and later General Manager and Chairman. You dont achieve that if you're "some knob". I recall conversations with several BR managers who had worked in the NER who held him in the highest regard.
I suspect the 1967 diversion was not for some "eclectic and obscure ideology" but to give direct services to Wakefield rather than expecting passengers to change at Normanton

Some people may have wondered why ..... the seemingly unimportant junction at Altofts was laid in for 60 over the divergence getting on to 50 yedars ago.
It came about because BR had an enthusiastic "switched on " project engineer who was responsible for the development of the new bridge at Altofts over the M62 which was just being built. As he explained to me he persuaded the Ministry of Transport (or whatever they were called at the time) staff that it was essential the staging works were done in a certain way even though this was more expensive than their original proposals.
When the job was done BR were left with an alignment that allowed unrestricted speed on the Leeds line and a much improved divergence towards Castleford-and all paid for out of the road building budget
 
Last edited:

Pigeon

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2015
Messages
804
I suspect the 1967 diversion was not for some "eclectic and obscure ideology" but to give direct services to Wakefield rather than expecting passengers to change at Normanton

Would work better to reinstate the curve Sandal Jc - Walton West Riding Jc. Only 56 chains, gets you direct to Westgate via a shorter/faster route than via Moorthorpe, and definitely better than screeching round all the multiplicity of sharp junctions and curves to wriggle round through Kirkgate.

-

Anyway, I've been playing about with some sectional appendices and operating notices I found on limitofshunt.org.uk which cover the relevant period (ie. end 60s - mid 80s) for these two routes, albeit with lots of gaps. They are not very clearly laid out documents and not very easy to understand, as well as being plain difficult to read (I did not print them out, some of them are over 400 pages) and rather tedious to go through, but eventually I extracted enough data that I'm reasonably sure I got right to start processing it into an array of pretty pictures to give a bit of an idea how the line speeds compared over the years.

Some notes: They are not reliable for all dates because the operating notices are basically a series of diffs based on that year's sectional appendix, so if there are too many important diffs missing the result starts getting increasingly wrong, and missing sectional appendices make it even worse. So the longer the gap between what sectional appendices were there, the more inaccurate the pictures get until the next one comes along.

I also found elsewhere a handful of weekly operating notices, which show a proliferation of short-lived spot slacks on both routes in every one I looked at. None of these appear to have gone on for long enough to make it into any of the longer-term notices I was using, and because I only found one or two weekly notices out of each year they didn't give anything like a complete enough picture to make any meaningful use of what they did give. So you'll just have to imagine lots of extra little holes appearing and disappearing week by week all over the charts like snow on a TV.

(The weekly notices also show lots of diversions going on right up until it was no longer possible to actually get through on the Midland route. Right into the period when "everything" was supposed to be going S&K there were random weeks where only one train a day actually did it, and things like that. Which confirms my recollection that notwithstanding the official dates of changeover, it continued to be a toss-up whether your train would end up going by one route or the other for as long as it had the choice.)

The pictures cover only the bits of routes that aren't also bits of other routes, ie. Wath Rd Jc to Goose Hill or to Burton Salmon as appropriate. I didn't know the official abbreviations for a lot of the intermediate points of interest so I had to make some up, but they're probably more obvious than the official ones would be. "LBV" is Lord Bellend's Viaduct, see above.

The speeds shown range from luminous green for 100mph down through intermediate yellowy shades to 20mph which is thoroughly red, with the width also varying in proportion. Solid overlays of two different shades represent spatially differentiated restrictions like the slow lines having a lower line speed than the fasts. Semi-transparent overlays of two or more shades represent restrictions differentiated by the type of train encountering them; this only seems to happen noticeably for the S&K, but they got quite fond of it on that route towards the end, with three different line speeds over the same track, for HSTs, other passenger trains, and everything else.

It's interesting to see how the basically faster original route stayed basically faster right up until the last few years until they started allowing the central section to chew its feet, and how much of a struggle it was to actually make the S&K turn into the faster route. I wonder also what the Midland would have looked like if they'd bothered working out a higher maximum speed for HSTs on it like they did for the S&K.
 

Grumpy

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2010
Messages
1,070
Would work better to reinstate the curve Sandal Jc - Walton West Riding Jc. Only 56 chains, gets you direct to Westgate via a shorter/faster route than via Moorthorpe, and definitely better than screeching round all the multiplicity of sharp junctions and curves to wriggle round through Kirkgate.
I agree.
I suspect at the time the cost of reinstating the curve would have been a factor, compared to using the existing curve at Moorthorpe.
The S&K between Ferrybridge and Moorthorpe seems to exist almost solely for the 3 times a day Sheffield-York stoppers serving Baghill. The only times I've used these they've been largely carrying fresh air
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top