Missed train due to platform alteration 20 seconds before departure

[uglymonkey]

Ok, I guess I must be unlucky then, in that everytime I have used it, I've watched the Exmouth depart with the Paddington connectors on the footbridge. This is in the evening ( about a 18:00 -19:00 odd departure from Paddington).

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I have had this problem at Putney waiting on platform 4 for the Windsor train. The information displays all indicating that as the correct platform. Then without any changes to the indicator or any announcements, the train comes in on platform 3 and departs before people can get over to platform 3.

 

[Horizon22]

This doesn't only apply at Redhill, though - far from it, in fact. Trains being sent off on time to the second (in theory) when another 15-20 seconds would allow previously mis-directed passengers to board, rather than miss it, is short-sighted when 20 seconds will make no difference further on with pathing and other allowances. It's the difference between a unified network concept and a disparate one.

What’s the point having a timetable then? Doing that at multiple stations and you’re already 2-3 minutes down.

I agree short-notice platform changes should be avoided (although they are almost impossible to cut out) but I would say the vast majority of services do not have them.

What Redhill probably needs is a local “control point” which is common at other major hubs so that can make announcements / platform changes in good time although that comes at a cost and isn’t always feasible.

 

[LlanishenBull]

I've had a similar lack of customer service moment, though in a different way.

Arriving into Cardiff Central with a few minutes to spare for a connection to my local station, they decided to couple the train I was on to another on the platform without letting passengers (customers) off first. I missed my connection by seconds, having to wait 30 minutes for the next one.

As others have said above, the railway is far too often run for benefit of itself not its customers.

 

[LAX54]

Trains running on time of course helps passengers already on the train and those boarding further down the line though. Just not those boarding at Redhill.

and also pathways and platforming further up the line, we do get the odd thing though of people complaining that their train is 3 mins late, 5 mins late etc, and its not acceptable, and then others saying they should have delayed a train 3 mins or so, so that they could catch it, which whlst not their fault, causes the other 'always late' complaints from those on the train, or miss connections further in

 

[Deepgreen]

and also pathways and platforming further up the line, we do get the odd thing though of people complaining that their train is 3 mins late, 5 mins late etc, and its not acceptable, and then others saying they should have delayed a train 3 mins or so, so that they could catch it, which whlst not their fault, causes the other 'always late' complaints from those on the train, or miss connections further in

The classic case that plagued my journeys from Betchworth to London when I commuted was the Betchworth train getting to Redhill's p1 (pre-p0 days), passengers alighting and crossing the island to the Victoria train at p2, only to find the doors closing in their faces. This happened countless times, and many angry scenes resulted. The particular irritant with this was that the train was scheduled to wait for four minutes outside East Croydon for a platform, so the 20 seconds extra at Redhill would have made absolutely no difference to anyone on board but would have allowed many interchanges to happen. The platform staff wore virtual blinkers regarding the GWR train arriving! It's this sort of robotic, brainless stuff that angers so many.

 

[uglymonkey]

I've also had Thameslink trains at London Bridge closing doors in your - while customers are boarding, to ensure a "right time departure"

 

[Kite159]

I have had this problem at Putney waiting on platform 4 for the Windsor train. The information displays all indicating that as the correct platform. Then without any changes to the indicator or any announcements, the train comes in on platform 3 and departs before people can get over to platform 3.

Same issue at Barnes, which also has the issue of being a longer walk between platforms

 

[izvor]

The classic case that plagued my journeys from Betchworth to London when I commuted was the Betchworth train getting to Redhill's p1 (pre-p0 days), passengers alighting and crossing the island to the Victoria train at p2, only to find the doors closing in their faces. This happened countless times, and many angry scenes resulted. The particular irritant with this was that the train was scheduled to wait for four minutes outside East Croydon for a platform, so the 20 seconds extra at Redhill would have made absolutely no difference to anyone on board but would have allowed many interchanges to happen.

It's a similar arrangement at Tonbridge, where I have twice recently had the doors closed in my face when attempting to connect off a late-running Redhill service. On one occasion I even asked the dispatcher on P2 to radio over to P3 to hold the Ashford train for a few seconds, which he did; but the P3 guy took great pleasure in ignoring him and giving the RA while there were many pax running down the stairs for the train.

This would all be fine and dandy, and in line with company policy etc. (to never maintain connections, or more likely to avoid late-running penalties), but when the down Dovers get to Ashford they are always held for the arrival of the down STP-MAR Javelin, sometimes by many minutes (enough for me to miss my bus connection further down the line), when there is a following through service for London to Dover pax! This makes no sense to me, especially when the connection is not cross-platform and is only 3 minutes, therefore not a booked connection anyway! It's a long way from P5/6 to P1/2 at AFK. And those suitcases…

Redhill has Southern and GWR services as well.

…not forgetting the Southeastern crewed Southern Tonbridge services. I believe that only Thameslinks are self-dispatch here at present.

 

[sjm77]

Manchester Oxford Road did it for years. It was my local station 1996-2008 but i've used it since 1973.
Up train arrival shown for platform 4, then at the last second, as the train is arriving, switches to platform 3. By the time you are rushing over the footbridge to attempt to catch the train you are blocked by the hordes of people leaving the train. Last time I only just made the train in the end.
The solution is to move to platform 3 in advance and watch the train arriving, but why should you? You can then see which platform it's routed into.

I have witnessed this at Oxford Road. The signallers obviosuly made a decision that a switch from P4 to P3 would prevent the following service from being delayed at the preceding red signal at Deansgate by 30 seconds. Unfortunatley the announcement was only made a minute later as the train arrived! The platform staff were great and held the train whilst people with luggage made there way over the bridge. In total they held the train for much more than the 30 seconds that the platform switch could ever have saved. Totally stupid and totally counter productive. What utter ridiculous nonsense.

 

[jon0844]

There really needs to be a way for the CIS to be updated of a platform change if a route is set differently by the signaller. It's not practical for a signaller to call a station, and letting control know to do so is even more impractical.

But if a route is changed before the train appears in another berth and triggers the platform alteration, that gives additional time and, most importantly, is automated.

If you look at OTT you can see routes set sometimes many minutes in advance and can already see there's going to be a platform change (such as Finsbury Park). Some coding to detect that would be well worth the CIS providers investing in.

 

[nr758123]

I've experienced something like this at Stalybridge with last minute alterations between platforms 3 & 4.

 

[Horizon22]

There really needs to be a way for the CIS to be updated of a platform change if a route is set differently by the signaller. It's not practical for a signaller to call a station, and letting control know to do so is even more impractical.

But if a route is changed before the train appears in another berth and triggers the platform alteration, that gives additional time and, most importantly, is automated.

If you look at OTT you can see routes set sometimes many minutes in advance and can already see there's going to be a platform change (such as Finsbury Park). Some coding to detect that would be well worth the CIS providers investing in.

I don't believe any technology currently exists which is intergrated enough to allow this. If it was, it would be a huge investment because a route is not directly picked up on the CIS, only train berth information which is why platform changes tend to be so short-notice on the CIS. I can see there being something like a "notification" being done, if a train is off route and there are some traffic management programs but again that's for signalling and operational information, not linked to public-facing info.

Not saying its impossible but in the shorter-term, it would be genuinely cheaper and easier to employ something like a station controller at places like Redhill which do not already have them.

The platform staff were great and held the train whilst people with luggage made there way over the bridge. In total they held the train for much more than the 30 seconds that the platform switch could ever have saved. Totally stupid and totally counter productive. What utter ridiculous nonsense.

Unfortunately some signallers aren't aware of the consequences on the ground of some of their actions - this is not to say they are doing anything wrong and are endeavouring to do things right as they see it on a map, but as you say can lead to other impacts; the passenger railway is moving people, not just trains.

 

[jon0844]

I don't believe any technology currently exists which is intergrated enough to allow this. If it was, it would be a huge investment because a route is not directly picked up on the CIS, only train berth information which is why platform changes tend to be so short-notice on the CIS.

Agreed, but there is data that would allow that connection - obviously at a cost to develop. Staff (or anyone using a third-party app) can see late changes, but it's not practical to have someone constantly monitoring an app and then making a change to the CIS, or doing an announcement. Popping to the toilet, speaking to someone else or whatever - and the moment to spot a late change is missed.

Of course you might develop something that triggers an alert to notify a supervisor, but it makes more sense to automate it - just as the train turning up in another berth currently does so - with varying lengths of time depending on how big the signalled section is.

Once we move to in-cab signalling, I assume there will be changes to how trains report. Maybe that will fix the issue?

 

[Horizon22]

Once we move to in-cab signalling, I assume there will be changes to how trains report. Maybe that will fix the issue?

I doubt it - I've seen platform inaccuracies at Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth line before and that's only 2 platforms!

I'm sure its not impossible to automate more (noting it is already automated on much of the network, just at very short-notice) and that should ultimately be the long-term aim, I just don't see it in the next 5 years at least. On the flip side, automation is also slower than a signaller phoning to say "I'll be routing 1A00 on Platform 2 vice 4" before it's even showing on any map/system/program. But I appreciate that is not a signaller's primary priority.

It's a more complex issue that it seems, and many have tried to resolve it but I don't see it going away.

 

[sjm77]

Unfortunately some signallers aren't aware of the consequences on the ground of some of their actions - this is not to say they are doing anything wrong and are endeavouring to do things right as they see it on a map, but as you say can lead to other impacts; the passenger railway is moving people, not just trains.

Well they should be!

 

[LAX54]

Well they should be!

It is quite a complex job they do, many delaing with multiple trains at once, staff working wanting blocks, regulating, The PSB I worked in Station Staff were always in the loop for any platform changes, (unless it was an emergency)

Once we move to in-cab signalling, I assume there will be changes to how trains report. Maybe that will fix the issue?

Well if its all automated, the system will just let the train sit and wait its booked platform, unless someone intervenes and changes it.
Automation is all well and good in places, other locations it will slow things down.

 

[sjm77]

It is quite a complex job they do, many delaing with multiple trains at once, staff working wanting blocks, regulating, The PSB I worked in Station Staff were always in the loop for any platform changes, (unless it was an emergency)

Don't misundersdtand me, I appreciate that. It was a general comment aimed at everybody. I make decisions at work in industry which have knock on affects, to be better atmy job I need to be aware of this and signallers are no different. However in my example the problem was not just the signallers shooting themselves in the foot trying to save time, but also the time delay between a route being set and an announcement being made to passengers.

 

[Lockwood]

I thought the official forum answer was that it is your responsibility to be in the right place significantly before the train is due? (I've certainly been on the receiving end of that after commenting on being unable to board a train after assisting platform staff with an incident and having the door close in my face)


If the passenger is meant to be in the right place (but rely on announcements and not RTT or similar) then there should be a bit of a two way street to help enable passengers to do that

 

[jfollows]

I thought the official forum answer was that it is your responsibility to be in the right place significantly before the train is due? (I've certainly been on the receiving end of that after commenting on being unable to board a train after assisting platform staff with an incident and having the door close in my face)


If the passenger is meant to be in the right place (but rely on announcements and not RTT or similar) then there should be a bit of a two way street to help enable passengers to do that

Well, it's common sense. When I sat for 20 minutes under a sign saying, effectively, "next train is to Wilmslow" at Manchester Oxford Road but at the last minute the platform was changed, I wasn't happy. As others have said, some of the systems will have "known" about the change earlier than this, but for whatever reason the information provided to passengers wasn't updated until the last moment. In the last case this happened to me, I just made the train, but it involved a lot of shoving past people leaving the train I wanted to catch.

 

[uglymonkey]

Once at Finsbury park I was on a Thameslink to Brighton. We were delayed as swop driver was a bit late I think. Moorgate train arrives on the other platform face. Some Moorgate people swop to our train.Our driver ( who had arrived) announces we are going to be a bit late leaving, so people should cross and join Moorgate train , if they wanted.This was repeated on platform announcements. Doors open loads of people swop to the Moorgate train. Couple of minutes later, doors close and we depart 1st,leaving Moorgate still in the Platform. How we all laughed.Hours of fun.

 

[Western Sunset]

Yet connections can be managed very well. Westbury is a case in point, where staff on the platform seem to have a portable PA set-up so can direct passengers to the correct platform, tell them the train will wait for them, etc. Seems all so civilised.

 

[43066]

I thought the official forum answer was that it is your responsibility to be in the right place significantly before the train is due? (I've certainly been on the receiving end of that after commenting on being unable to board a train after assisting platform staff with an incident and having the door close in my face)


If the passenger is meant to be in the right place (but rely on announcements and not RTT or similar) then there should be a bit of a two way street to help enable passengers to do that

Yes, that position reflects the general approach* taken by the industry. The reason being that it benefits more passengers overall to ensure as many trains as possible depart on time, thereby minimising overall delay. This makes a lot more sense when you witness how delay can breed further delay as a train moves through the network.

If you miss a train due to a late connection, or perhaps due to a platforming error, that’s unfortunate, but the correct remedy is to have recourse to the (actually pretty generous) delay repay scheme, rather than expecting connections to be held.

The references to doors being “closed in peoples’ faces” will almost always be to situations where people have run up to a train during the dispatch process, rather than any intentional act on behalf of the train crew. There’s realistically nothing that can be done to stop people who appear out of nowhere and attempt to board once the close door button has been pushed. I’m sure we have all done it - I most certainly do it on a regular basis(!) - however I believe it’s technically a bylaw offence, and it does carry a risk of injury, and potentially worse if you end up being clobbered by a door and falling down the gap.

*there are exceptions to this, eg my TOC will hold connections for last long distance trains, and perhaps branches on the Cornish mainline etc. where holding connections makes sense. Generally that won’t apply to anywhere London/the South East.

 

[uglymonkey]

Doors being closed in peoples faces. No. Crowded platform, people getting on and off, doors shut whilst people trying to get on and off. Train " brushes" people as it departs, as the platform is still crowded with people trying to get on and off. Trains timed not to be connections, not held, just timetabled to miss connections, not to prevent delay down the line. Planned to miss.

 

[Wychwood93]

Yet connections can be managed very well. Westbury is a case in point, where staff on the platform seem to have a portable PA set-up so can direct passengers to the correct platform, tell them the train will wait for them, etc. Seems all so civilised.

Indeed. Mrs Wychwood and myself have had a couple of shuffles from plats.2/3 to p.1 and back again or v.v, but nobody left behind. A bit of huffing, puffing and muttering along the way but all worked well.

 

[Trothy]

Don't misundersdtand me, I appreciate that. It was a general comment aimed at everybody. I make decisions at work in industry which have knock on affects, to be better atmy job I need to be aware of this and signallers are no different. However in my example the problem was not just the signallers shooting themselves in the foot trying to save time, but also the time delay between a route being set and an announcement being made to passengers.

Ok I'll bite.

As a signaller that works Oxford Rd, the use of Platform 3, for trains that will fit on it for trains coming from the Deansgate direction is really important for keeping trains flowing over Castlefield Jn effectively, especially during disruption.

I personally try and make sure platform alterations are conveyed to the Platform staff a minimum of 5 minutes in advance. However even when they're not, the trains usually arrived there are airport trains with an overtaking service (often for the airport) run through 4 - so a little extra time in the platform is not an issue. And certainly passengers with cases can simply wait on 4 for the express airport service.

I'm not simply changing platforms on a whim, it's about trying to keep the service running as well as possible. Especially within the very awkward constraints of the Castlefield corridor.

 

[jfollows]

Ok I'll bite.

As a signaller that works Oxford Rd, the use of Platform 3, for trains that will fit on it for trains coming from the Deansgate direction is really important for keeping trains flowing over Castlefield Jn effectively, especially during disruption.

I personally try and make sure platform alterations are conveyed to the Platform staff a minimum of 5 minutes in advance. However even when they're not, the trains usually arrived there are airport trains with an overtaking service (often for the airport) run through 4 - so a little extra time in the platform is not an issue. And certainly passengers with cases can simply wait on 4 for the express airport service.

I'm not simply changing platforms on a whim, it's about trying to keep the service running as well as possible. Especially within the very awkward constraints of the Castlefield corridor.

It's not that the platforms get changed that's the problem, it used to be the case (and may still be) that the platform display showed the train as using platform 4 until the train was arriving, with no announcements to the contrary. It may have changed for the better now, I have no recent experience. My most recent experience was an up train which used platform 1 instead of platform 4, which I was able to work out by standing on platform 3 and seeing how the points were set as it approached from Deansgate, so I beat the rush over the footbridge.
It's not you that's the problem, it's the lack of downstream information which follows from the changes that you make that's the problem, which may have been fixed or may not. If not, it's not good, but it's not you.

 

[Craig1122]

I have had this problem at Putney waiting on platform 4 for the Windsor train. The information displays all indicating that as the correct platform. Then without any changes to the indicator or any announcements, the train comes in on platform 3 and departs before people can get over to platform 3.

Those in the know generally wait near the bridge in case of a last minute change. Last time I saw this happen a member of staff flat out denied it had happened and then just laughed in the passenger's face. I don't condone assaults but there are individuals who practically invite them.

 

[Horizon22]

Doors being closed in peoples faces. No. Crowded platform, people getting on and off, doors shut whilst people trying to get on and off. Train " brushes" people as it departs, as the platform is still crowded with people trying to get on and off. Trains timed not to be connections, not held, just timetabled to miss connections, not to prevent delay down the line. Planned to miss.

Trains are not “timetabled to miss”connections. The timetable is an incredibly complex undertaking weaving in a lot of different factors and requirements some of which you probably haven’t even thought about. So sometimes a train might leave 2 minutes earlier than what you might think to be a “connection” meaning you wait 28 minutes. But that won’t be done for the fun of it.

And if you think you see a scenario where this happens regularly, I would suggest contacting the affected operator(s), complaining and maybe an explanation will be forthcoming.

 

[sheff1]

Trains are not “timetabled to miss”connections. The timetable is an incredibly complex undertaking weaving in a lot of different factors and requirements some of which you probably haven’t even thought about. So sometimes a train might leave 2 minutes earlier than what you might think to be a “connection” meaning you wait 28 minutes. But that won’t be done for the fun of it.

And if you think you see a scenario where this happens regularly, I would suggest contacting the affected operator(s), complaining and maybe an explanation will be forthcoming.

For years in the 2000s/2010s there was a short (less than 10 mins) connection at Doncaster for Sheffield off the 1900 from Edinburgh on Saturday evenings which allowed passengers to easily catch the last tram/bus home. The reliability of the Edinburgh train began to deteriorate and the connection was frequently missed. After a couple of years of this the 'connection' was retimed to leave <7 mins after the scheduled arrival from Edinburgh (I can't remember whether the retiming was to the arriving or departing train or both) meaning it was no longer an official connection. No explanation was forthcoming but, in the absence of one, it did seem rather like a deliberate decision to avoid paying for Delay Repay or taxis.

I note that in the current timetable the connection is back in at 17 mins ...... I don't know when it was reinstated as, after the connection was severed, I switched to the WCML and in view of the completely unreliable services post-covid I don't make the journey any more.