Mobile reception on trains - worst & best lines?

[mrmatt]

This is really interesting. Does anyone think it would be economical for mobile phone providers to improve their signal in places like Clapham Junction and along railway lines?

Big problem in places like Clapham Junct. or London Bridge is the shear number of phones in a small area. There just isn't enough bandwidth to go round so the airwaves just get very clogged up. Some micro cells and spectrum management can help but physics is against them.

 

[starrymarkb]

Indeed, I had full signal but struggled for data in Waterloo due to the network being so busy. It's common in parts of central London

 

[jon0844]

I always thought pendilinos had boosters on for Vodafone ,EE and O2 not sure about virgin voyagers now ,i know all voyagers used to have orange boosters fitted

They do have boosters, but even they can only work so well. For a better chance of coverage for voice/text, you'll want to be using 2G - and ideally at 900MHz (Vodafone/O2). If you locked your phone to 2G, you might prevent the phone hunting for a signal on both 2G and 3G and the resulting battery drain.

For data, you'll be wanting 3G or 4G only - but the latter is extremely limited at the moment (but, wow, is it fast when you do have coverage!). O2 and Vodafone launched 4G today but will have rather pathetic coverage until mid 2014. EE is way ahead, but still covering towns and cities and not the bits in between - and Three launches in December, with just three cities at first (but NO extra tariff costs for 4G, so every Three user can use 4G for 'free').

The 4G networks operating at 800MHz should really help with rural coverage, but it's a long way off. I'd say we're looking at 2015 before 4G will be particularly usable or practical on a train.

 

[34D]

The ECML from Doncaster to Welwyn North has perfect EE 3G and 2G signal, including through Peascliff Tunnel. Very good indeed. I could have a constant telephone call if I wanted. Data likewise.

A solution is needed for the Welwyn tunnels though.

Do _any_ mobile networks have a policy of increasing coverage along railway lines?

 

[jon0844]

Orange stated an intention to cover tunnels on most (mainline) railway routes as far back as 2003/4. The idea was to simply erect sites near to the tunnels, rather than any clever system (e.g. leaky feeder) inside.

I wrote a story on this for a trade paper, but sadly it never went online so I can't refer back to it for the finer details. The ECML was, as you'd expect, one of the lines mentioned.

I have to assume that it did so wherever it could*, but possibly had issues with planning at some places and that's why. And, it would have only been one network at the time (albeit now part of EE so benefiting Three, Virgin, T-Mobile users etc).

* There's a cell site just by the tunnels near Hadley Wood, but I don't know if it's Orange/EE. What's more, you generally lose signal in the long tunnel there - or at least going one way. You can, however, see how Network Rail has put antennas up to cover them for GSM-R - actually at the tunnel mouths!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Must admit I would prefer a system that allowed data on a train, and SMS but not calls! I don't like making or receiving calls on a train, and don't like others having a call of "I'M ON A TRAIN SIGNAL....." 30 seconds later "HELLO I'M ON A TRAIN......" etc. People always seem to shout on a train.

So on board wifi is the answer but at the same time it has to be cheap! Maybe BT should be looking to install it on trains as they give wi-fi hotspot access free to their customers, and vodafone customers get it too. Increasing their coverage has to be good for them.

 

[bolli]

Newport to Patchway is absolutely dire for signal. I tried to send an email last week and it took me nearly half an hour to send it. Yes, it passes through the Severn Tunnel, obviously there will be a loss of signal, but the journey through the tunnel is only four minutes.

I really am absolutely baffled as to why First Great Western have not put Wifi on the Cardiff to London route, but that is for a different thread.

I have never had an issue with the signal between STJ and newport (As a regular commuter along it). 2G most of the way between the tunnel and patchway too, so I'm not sure why its such an issue for you (I'm on O2)...

 

[sarahj]

For us as train staff its the calls that we need to make.

The reason people seem to talk louder into mobile phones is quite simple. On your home phone there is a system where when you talk into the handset you hear your voice on the the speaker. Its not loud, and quite hard to detect, but its there. As a result you dont shout into your phone. A mobile has none of this so you tend to talk louder.

 

[jon0844]

Mobiles do generate a 'side tone' but I do think that when you're in a noisy environment you just talk louder, even though the other party can probably hear you just fine even when whispering.

A mobile might have two, even three, microphones to filter out background noise.

The other problem is that when a mobile has a quiet earpiece and you struggle to hear the other person, you naturally talk louder too.

 

[ess]

I've always been surprised that Paddington to Slough connectivity is so awful for O2 given that O2 are based in Slough

 

[Carlisle]

Im surprised mobile reception has not arrived on London tube stations yet apart from WiFi,as i was on the Stockholm metro about 12 years ago and they had mobile signals underground even then

 

[jon0844]

It has been considered, but the project would be very costly - especially on the very deep lines (does Stockholm have such lines, or just sub-surface ones?). I am sure it will happen one day.

Wi-Fi is only at stations, but that's not too bad. At least I can get to King's Cross and check my train is on time, and what platform, while I'm going up the escalator. That's a BIG benefit to me.

 

[DarloRich]

I have an T Mobile (EE) personal phone and an O2 work Blackberry.

I find Virgin WCML between Euston and Manchester to be very bad for a data connection on my phone yet i can email for fun on the old blueberry. I struggle to take a call south of Stoke on either which i really quite like

I rarely have a signal problem anywhere on the ECML but the data goes a bit patchy after Newcastle. I can make and receive calls all day long which is a shame. The Blackberry emial function works fine almost anywhere.

The GWML is poor on both till Reading and then goes down the toilet anywhere after Bristol.

the interesting thing is my twitter app will post on almost no signal which is nice. However what would really make my life better is free, decent , reliable wifi on all intercity trains!

 

[Hellfire]

I travel regularly on the WCML and find reception on O2 pretty patchy and completely non-existent in the Midlands between Stafford And Rugby. I have no idea why this is.

I don't use the WiFi connection on a Pendlino because I find it no faster than 3G and in fact, I think the WiFi actually hinders 3G reception. Plus VT charge for it in Standard.

I don't use my phone on the train and always try to book the quiet coach as there is nothing worse than listening to one side of an inane conversation. It never ceases to amaze me how indiscreet some people are when using a phone in public.

However I do use an iPad so the lack of a decent signal is annoying especially when I want to post to this forum from a train.

 

[Electrostar]

The EE (T-Mobile/Orange) 3G between London Charing Cross and Clock House is terrible. It's certainly got worse since the launch of 4G.

 

[jon0844]

4G should have made no difference at all. But 2G might have got worse as (some of) the 1800MHz GSM spectrum has been reused.

 

[Carlisle]

I rarely have a signal problem anywhere on the WCML but the data goes a bit patchy after Newcastle. QUOTE]

Must check out that new station on the WCML lol

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Paris-Lille is extremely bad for reception i found so it aint just a hs1 problem

 

[DarloRich]

I rarely have a signal problem anywhere on the WCML but the data goes a bit patchy after Newcastle. QUOTE]

Must check out that new station on the WCML lol

see - that is what mobile signals do to your brain!

 

[Carlisle]

For good reasons, the reception between Sheffield and Manchester is terrible, at least on O2.

Obviously there is the tunnel sections, but also a large area around Edale with no reception at all.

I also noticed that big gap in coverage around Edale and out of curiosity i checked my Vodafone's coverage map which stated it was due to receive coverage in the next year ,that was about 2 yes ago and nothing has improved so can only presume all the money is now diverted into 4g

 

[nlogax]

The SWML / data issue doesn't seem restricted to Clapham Jct, at least on Vodafone. There's a dead spot all way into CJ from Raynes Park. Wimbledon is a data black hole. Once beyond CJ and Queenstown Road, data seems ok again.

 

[D365]

Remember that Virgin Mobile use the EE (Orange/T-Mobile) signal - though they haven't rolled out 4G.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure Virgin will seek to enable 4G in due course. It all depends on their contract as a virtual operator. Ditto all the others (and there are many).

 

[D365]

Quoted from EC IEP thread:

And it won't allow Voyager-style mobile reception impairment either:

TS1475 IEP Trains must be designed so as to allow mobile phones and other similar devices accessing GSM and 3G communications networks to operate without excessive impediment. In particular, such signals passing through the side windows perpendicular to the rail on straight track shall be attenuated by less than 3dB. This may be demonstrated by a test on the window material independently of the train.

Wonder if this will hold stead for 4G or any future telecommunication systems. By the time Virgin launch 4G (if still using EE rather than another network, can take advantage of a developed network) I'll probably be ready to replace my battered old iPhone!

 

[jon0844]

Virgin will never be able to build its own network, so I can't see it moving away from EE ever.

 

[Muzer]

Quoted from EC IEP thread:



Wonder if this will hold stead for 4G or any future telecommunication systems. By the time Virgin launch 4G (if still using EE rather than another network, can take advantage of a developed network) I'll probably be ready to replace my battered old iPhone!

Since the 4G frequencies are, on the whole, mostly spread around the same spectrum as 3G and GSM (admittedly extending a little further on either side, but not by much), I reckon it'll be OK.

 

[jon0844]

The only real issue to people, and it hasn't really shown up as a major problem so far, is the 800MHz used for 4G - which can affect Freeview reception.

Beyond that, I doubt 4G will cause any problems. The real problem is that 4G, currently, only carries data - and so to make or receive a call you need to drop back to 3G. That means you need a good 4G AND 3G (or 2G) signal to be able to use everything on your phone.

A 4G signal at 800MHz might carry very well in rural areas, but then you need to switch to 3G at 2100MHz and that signal isn't there.

Suffice to say, this issue will probably be mentioned in the media in due course (once there are lots of 4G users and people begin to notice that they're having problems). For now, I doubt there are many people who are getting 4G but not 3G or 2G!!

 

[Muzer]

I don't know which operator is getting the 800MHz band, but O2 have the 900MHz band for 2G which would therefore work well as a fallback.

 

[jon0844]

O2 also has some 3G at 900 too, similar to how Orange re-used 1800 for 4G.

 

[Carlisle]

It has been considered, but the project would be very costly - especially on the very deep lines (does Stockholm have such lines, or just sub-surface ones?). I am sure it will happen one day.

Wi-Fi is only at stations, but that's not too bad. At least I can get to King's Cross and check my train is on time, and what platform, while I'm going up the escalator. That's a BIG benefit to me.

Cheers for the info ,from memory there were some deep level stations that you could use mobiles in but can't remember how many