Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[Starmill]

Only if that's allowed. One reservation per season ticket per day would control that, you could then change it if you needed to, and if you missed the train another could be made on-spec.

Given that for technical reasons it's taken 18 months to deploy flex-seasons, I'll be very impressed if a reservation per day can be electronically limited by a season ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that for technical reasons it's taken 18 months to deploy flex-seasons, I'll be very impressed if a reservation per day can be electronically limited by a season ticket.

They're doing it now, aren't they? I'm sure I heard someone complaining about it with regard to a Rover.

 

[lkpridgeon]

They're doing it now, aren't they? I'm sure I heard someone complaining about it with regard to a Rover.

They're limiting it to a combination of 2 journey's or reservations per account each day at the moment (not inclusive of reservations made when purchasing a ticket). However there's nothing technically stopping them from using multiple accounts/emails to bypass this.

 

[kez19]

No.

What I mean is that the computer allocates seats to make best use of them. So for example if you already have a seat booked Leeds-York, if someone comes in and books KX-Leeds you allocate that in preference into that seat rather than a different one. The trains are long enough and there will be enough of this that the basic preferences (forward/back/table/window/aisle) could still largely be respected, and there's no need to play the silly Ryanair game of splitting people up.



The reason it should be chargeable is that allowing everyone to pick for free means they will pick, and this can cause inefficient allocation, e.g. your last two seats are reserved as Leeds-York and KX-Leeds in separate seats, and you can't then sell a KX-York ticket as the train is nominally full.

A small fee, doesn't need to be massive, a couple of quid would do, ensures that only those for whom seat selection is important bother selecting and so allows those efficiencies.

I thought LNER already does that? Example my seat A1 is reserved to Newcastle, I get off Newcastle onwards reserved or “free”?

Seat allocation: I understand your point but I say, if I again reserved seat A1 from Newcastle paid that fee quid but someone else is in it, where do I go? I’ll be more likely put somewhere else and probably pay again (theory not reality here), the conductor will either see situation resolve it or ignore it if my allocation is displayed

 

[Starmill]

They're doing it now, aren't they? I'm sure I heard someone complaining about it with regard to a Rover.

No they're just giving them per email address currently. There's no ticket verification at all, you can just book them without paying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seat allocation: I understand your point but I say, if I again reserved seat A1 from Newcastle paid that fee quid but someone else is in it, where do I go? I’ll be more likely put somewhere else and probably pay again (theory not reality here), the conductor will either see situation resolve it or ignore it if my allocation is displayed

You're saying "what if someone incorrectly sits in my seat"? You tell them to move, like now, or if they won't you ask the guard to do it. Or you sit elsewhere but accept that someone may board and require you to shift.

 

[kez19]

You're saying "what if someone incorrectly sits in my seat"? You tell them to move, like now, or if they won't you ask the guard to do it. Or you sit elsewhere but accept that someone may board and require you to shift.

That’s not easy though is it? That approach doesn’t work, why should I mention it to the guard they might not do anything either (this happened on my return journey from Newcastle couple years ago asked guy to move but chose to play on mobile), let alone he had his belongings on the aisle seat (pretty much saying no one sitting next to me approach), other times it’s I have got right seat but people have jumped down my back initially claiming it’s theirs until I say I booked it (some to me just like a window seat), only once I have allowed a person to stay where they are as they had traveled the distance - I have my own exceptions with people on the train but it’s the attitude of some passengers that needs to change

I know the concept of someone sitting in my seat and finding another, but what’s the point then in me reserving a seat taken by someone else (or as mentioned before train running late reserved system switched off) and you want to whack on charging a seat? LNER be making more money (possibly) for one person for moving about the train.

As for finding a seat I have been just lucky if there is seats at least displaying Dundee to get me home, but for doing a 3 hour journey moving up or down a train for a seat is a bit much?

 

[STINT47]

I think LNER are going to have to open more seats up for reaervations or rail travel is going to become unviable.

I'm looking to travel from Edingburgh to Newcastle on the 22nd June but the 18:30 and 19:36 departures are already showing as unavailable. I can get a place on the 17:30 but this is a bit to early for me.

If trains are already full seven weeks before travel then East Coast train travel will become a no go for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think LNER are going to have to open more seats up for reaervations or rail travel is going to become unviable.

I expect this will happen when "social distancing is abolished" (as Boris has it), whenever that is, but not before. That is they'll move to all seats being reservable rather than just about half of them, but probably still no standing.

 

[kez19]

I think LNER are going to have to open more seats up for reaervations or rail travel is going to become unviable.

I'm looking to travel from Edingburgh to Newcastle on the 22nd June but the 18:30 and 19:36 departures are already showing as unavailable. I can get a place on the 17:30 but this is a bit to early for me.

If trains are already full seven weeks before travel then East Coast train travel will become a no go for me.

I didn't mention this but since you brought it up, I am for Newcastle 1610 from Dundee on the 14 June, I noticed that the last one for my area the 1934 was unavailable for some unknown reason, I can't see the reason that the train(s) are fully booked as for me it was only out a few weeks ago (and at time of booking it displayed that - unavailable)

Edit: checked app 1934 is available for that date.

Also had a message on app saying Euros on between Wembley and Glasgow (17-20 June)

 

[Starmill]

I think LNER are going to have to open more seats up for reaervations or rail travel is going to become unviable.

I'm looking to travel from Edingburgh to Newcastle on the 22nd June but the 18:30 and 19:36 departures are already showing as unavailable. I can get a place on the 17:30 but this is a bit to early for me.

If trains are already full seven weeks before travel then East Coast train travel will become a no go for me.

The relatively low prices of Advance tickets on the 1600, 1630, 1700, and 1730 strongly lead me to suspect that the 1830 and 1936 aren't in fact full, and rather are not yet open for reservation. Their post midnight arrivals in London may well set them apart from other services the same day in this respect.

RARS2 was supposed to be facilitate differentiating this to customers. I don't know if that's possible yet, but one way or another the user interface on LNER does not currently differentiate.

Of course, if you were going to go completely compulsory reservation you'd need to open all trains simultaneously per day because otherwise there will be lot of wasted reservations on the last train shown as running, when people subsequently realise they can book their preferred time service, but don't cancel their existing reservation.

The other clue that the train was never open, rather than being "full" is that the website doesn't show the Azuma logo, despite all trains from Edinburgh being scheduled for Azuma operation now. Perhaps LNER are actually doing us a favour here and getting us to hone our detective skills

 

[Watershed]

Of course, if you were going to go completely compulsory reservation you'd need to open all trains simultaneously per day because otherwise there will be lot of wasted reservations on the last train shown as running, when people subsequently realise they can book their preferred time service, but don't cancel their existing reservation.

I don't think that is likely to be a long-term issue. Compulsory reservations are clearly the first step along the slippery slope to an "Advances only" policy. At which point you'll have to give up your old reservation to change trains (unless you want to throw away your ticket).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, if you were going to go completely compulsory reservation you'd need to open all trains simultaneously per day because otherwise there will be lot of wasted reservations on the last train shown as running, when people subsequently realise they can book their preferred time service, but don't cancel their existing reservation.

I suspect if they go CR permanently it will also involve a move to "global fares" (i.e. only Advance fares* offered), so if you don't change your ticket you lose your money. The present situation is a bit of an interim thing due to COVID. I have said upthread that that isn't necessary for CR, and indeed it isn't, but things do as you say get rather messy if there is no incentive to cancel a reservation you aren't going to use. Most railways worldwide that operate CR have the ticket and reservation as one thing rather than separate reservations.

* I could see them offering additionally something like easyJet etc do, and offering a change for a missed train at <fee>+fare difference, though.

 

[Starmill]

The other clue that the train was never open, rather than being "full" is that the website doesn't show the Azuma logo, despite all trains from Edinburgh being scheduled for Azuma operation now. Perhaps LNER are actually doing us a favour here and getting us to hone our detective skills

A quick check of the 'Tickets for future travel' page reveals the following information:

Why can't I book my tickets yet?
We’re still finalising our timetable for future travel dates, so some tickets aren’t on sale yet. Create a ticket alert for the dates you want to travel and we'll let you know when the cheapest Advance tickets are available to buy.

What dates are available?
All tickets are available up to Friday 3 September 2021 with the weekends above still to be confirmed.

You can create a ticket alert for the days you want to travel and we'll let you know when the cheapest Advance tickets are available to buy.

Unavailable dates
The following dates are not available for travel yet. We will update this page when we can confirm a release date. If you would like to book tickets for one of these dates, you can create a ticket alert to be notified when they are on sale.

Saturday 3 and Sunday 4 July

Ticket alerts for our cheapest fares

Create an alert to be the first to hear when Advance tickets go on sale so you can grab a bargain before the rest.

www.lner.co.uk

The fact that it says "all tickets" are available would go very much against my hypothesis. However it's also confusing because it says "weekends above" but there aren't any weekends above. Perhaps at a guess they meant weekends below, in which case the only exception is the one weekend in July, 3rd and 4th.

It may be worthwhile @STINT47 creating an alert at the link above, just to see what reaches their email inbox. Perhaps an alert will arrive almost as soon as they set it up saying that tickets are already available, or alternatively perhaps those two trains will open in the coming days, and that will trigger the alter afresh. Or perhaps nothing will happen and those trains won't run. Who knows.

 

[STINT47]

The relatively low prices of Advance tickets on the 1600, 1630, 1700, and 1730 strongly lead me to suspect that the 1830 and 1936 aren't in fact full, and rather are not yet open for reservation

Thank you. I think I will try again in a week or two's time and hopefully I can get a reservation for an evening departure.

Failing that I can book on cross country but I'm not a fan of voyager train seats. Yes I know lots dont like Azuma seats either but I find them comfortable.

 

[riceuten]

Well, not exactly - I suppose it would depend on how ORCATS deals with it. As I recall, one of the reasons that LNER (and her many predecessors) stop at SVG is to get their sweaty hands on some of the season ticket cash. SVG is unusual inasmuch as our London season ticket is not operator specific and allows you to use LNER services as well as GN/TL with no further payment

 

[Hadders]

Well, not exactly - I suppose it would depend on how ORCATS deals with it. As I recall, one of the reasons that LNER (and her many predecessors) stop at SVG is to get their sweaty hands on some of the season ticket cash. SVG is unusual inasmuch as our London season ticket is not operator specific and allows you to use LNER services as well as GN/TL with no further payment

There are no LNER southbound services in the morning peak though although there are some in the evening peak.

GTR are the lead operator and therefore set the inter-available fare. LNER can set their own operator fares, and do have some off peak LNER only fares, but an LNER only season ticket isn’t feasible due to the absence of services in the morning peak.

 

[riceuten]

Depends how you define peak. There were 2 trains at 0858 and 0904 southbound from Stevenage to Kings X (a Lincoln and a Leeds IIRC) before lockdown. That definitely seemed to be a ORCATS raid if ever there was one.

They do indeed occasionally have their own fares on offer, few and far between though, and not a massive saving on the GTR fare.

 

[Starmill]

Depends how you define peak. There were 2 trains at 0858 and 0904 southbound from Stevenage to Kings X (a Lincoln and a Leeds IIRC) before lockdown. That definitely seemed to be a ORCATS raid if ever there was one.

Really? The 0904 arrival is from Bradford Forster Square and leaves Leeds at 0715. Are you saying that people going to Hertfordshire shouldn't have a direct train from Yorkshire that arrives so early? The 0858 arrival is the first fast service from Peterborough to Stevenage of the day, leaving as it does at 0829. Readers will also note that this train provides a connection from Sunderland, Newcastle, Durham, Darlington and York at Peterborough, and also from Spalding and Stamford. Are you saying that should be later? If the 0858 didn't stop, people making trips in the morning such as Newcastle to Stevenage would have an even slower journey.

 

[Ianno87]

Depends how you define peak. There were 2 trains at 0858 and 0904 southbound from Stevenage to Kings X (a Lincoln and a Leeds IIRC) before lockdown. That definitely seemed to be a ORCATS raid if ever there was one.

No it isn't; it was just the first hour of the standard hourly pattern, with a ~xx58 and ~xx04 call every hour.

 

[riceuten]

"Are you saying that people going to Hertfordshire shouldn't have a direct train from Yorkshire that arrives so early?"

No, where do I say that ?

 

[Starmill]

"Are you saying that people going to Hertfordshire shouldn't have a direct train from Yorkshire that arrives so early?"

No, where do I say that ?

You suggested that the two trains were a so-called "ORCATS raid" on the basis of Stevenage to London traffic. I was pointing out that they're not really, because they're there for the benefit mainly of people travelling to or via Stevenage. There are well established reasons that the preceeding long-distance trains to London don't stop after Peterborough. So if either of these services were not to stop, there would be a materially worse service.

Lots of people seem to forget that (at least until March 2020) the overwhelming reason for the 1633, 1733 and 1833 LNER departures from London Kings Cross serving Stevenage was to provide capacity.

 

[riceuten]

You suggested that the two trains were a so-called "ORCATS raid" on the basis of Stevenage to London traffic. I was pointing out that they're not really, because they're there for the benefit mainly of people travelling to or via Stevenage. There are well established reasons that the preceeding long-distance trains to London don't stop after Peterborough. So if either of these services were not to stop, there would be a materially worse service.

So you agree I didn't say or imply that. I can feel a ban or suspension coming on, because I made the dreadful mistake of "disagreeing with a mod"

 

[Starmill]

So you agree I didn't say or imply that.

You most clearly implied that they shouldn't rightly serve Stevenage.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

LNER has now disabled replies on all their tweets telling people they need to get a new reservation when their train is cancelled and their tickets will be accepted on other trains...

This implies they've been getting a barrage of adverse comment about the system on such tweets doesn't it?

 

[AlterEgo]

LNER has now disabled replies on all their tweets telling people they need to get a new reservation when their train is cancelled and their tickets will be accepted on other trains...

This implies they've been getting a barrage of adverse comment about the system on such tweets doesn't it?

View attachment 95981

I think it's more likely that they just want a "clean" thread so people can read the important message seamlessly without hearing from Sharon and Kevin about their cancelled bed and breakfast stay to see their son in Edinburgh blah blah.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they providing hotels for anyone stranded due to this policy, I wonder? Airlines do (indeed, are generally required to).

I've generally been arguing in favour of CR on here, however in case of very severe disruption like this it makes little sense.

It's also rather unfair on passengers on other TOCs who will end up with their trains full and standing (and posing a higher COVID risk to them) when LNER persist with filling only every other seat.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are they providing hotels for anyone stranded due to this policy, I wonder? Airlines do (indeed, are generally required to).

I've generally been arguing in favour of CR on here, however in case of very severe disruption like this it makes little sense.

It's also rather unfair on passengers on other TOCs who will end up with their trains full and standing (and posing a higher COVID risk to them) when LNER persist with filling only every other seat.

As a tiny data point, I have been able to secure reservations to Grantham for tomorrow and there were copious reservations available throughout the day in standard and first. I think the likelihood of stranding anywhere on the route is relatively low.

 

[Ianno87]

LNER has now disabled replies on all their tweets telling people they need to get a new reservation when their train is cancelled and their tickets will be accepted on other trains...

This implies they've been getting a barrage of adverse comment about the system on such tweets doesn't it?

View attachment 95981

I think it's more likely that they just want a "clean" thread so people can read the important message seamlessly without hearing from Sharon and Kevin about their cancelled bed and breakfast stay to see their son in Edinburgh blah blah.

Yes, it's almost certainly just to manage the volume of general replies/questions they are receiving and not have a thread weighed down by this that and the other question

Are they providing hotels for anyone stranded due to this policy, I wonder? Airlines do (indeed, are generally required to).

I've generally been arguing in favour of CR on here, however in case of very severe disruption like this it makes little sense.

It's also rather unfair on passengers on other TOCs who will end up with their trains full and standing (and posing a higher COVID risk to them) when LNER persist with filling only every other seat.

Trains basically aren't *that* busy, especially (in extremis) the last trains of the day, so it's presumably few if any passengers actually being stranded (given that some people will also travel earlier than their booked train)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains basically aren't *that* busy, especially (in extremis) the last trains of the day.

Interesting, as on the Bank Holiday weekend some Chiltern trains (which is a very similar situation but for a very different reason) were pretty busy. Certainly if anyone had had COVID on the train I was on it would have spread around a bit.