Moorgate as a London Terminal when travelling on Thameslink Northern Route (Bedford/Luton)

[gavin81]

My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere; I have looked extensively but can't get to the bottom of this.

My new commute is Luton/Luton Airport Parkway to Moorgate. (Mon-Fri, generally around 08.30 out and 17.30 back).

• I believe that a ticket from, say, Luton to London Terminals would allow me to change at St Pancras or Farringdon, take the tube to Moorgate, and not have to pay an additional sum for the use of the Underground.
• As I'm travelling from the North I believe that Moorgate is a permitted station, and that taking the tube is a permitted route.
• However I'm yet to find a way to purchase (online or from a ticket machine) a fare to London Terminals. Instead a ticket to London Thameslink is the only one offered.

Any thoughts or wisdom on this welcomed (including whether a London Terminals, rather than a London Thameslink ticket, would represent value over paying separately for the tube.

Thanks!

 

[Haywain]

I believe that a ticket from, say, Luton to London Terminals would allow me to change at St Pancras or Farringdon, take the tube to Moorgate, and not have to pay an additional sum for the use of the Underground.

Sadly, that is not the case. It only applies to tickets from the Great Northern route.

 

[swt_passenger]

Moorgate was never a London terminal from the MML when the route was still open, it had dedicated fares. It wasn’t part of the London Thameslink fares group either. The various dual availability rules only apply to the Great Northern side, ie routes into Kings Cross.

 

[Haywain]

Any thoughts or wisdom on this welcomed (including whether a London Terminals, rather than a London Thameslink ticket, would represent value over paying separately for the tube.

You will not be able to buy a ticket to London Terminals, so there is nothing to answer.

 

[gavin81]

Thanks so much, clears that one up!

 

[SargeNpton]

Any thoughts or wisdom on this welcomed (including whether a London Terminals, rather than a London Thameslink ticket, would represent value over paying separately for the tube.

Thanks!

Moorgate is not one of the stations included in the "London Thameslink" zone: Blackfriars, London Bridge, St Pancras, Farringdon, Elephant & Castle, City Thameslink.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, is the cheapest option potentially to use a Luton to London Thameslink ticket and then walk the final mile from Farringdon?

 

[spag23]

And forget St Pancras for changing onto the eastbound Tube. It's a brisk 5 minute walk to the TfL platform, by which time the Luton train you'd just left will be at Farringdon; and AFAIK there's no fare difference. The TL-TfL interchange (if you use it) at Farringdon is a doddle.
Moorgate used to be a London terminal on the line from Bedford, but that was years ago, when it was branded Network South East.

 

[SAPhil]

So, is the cheapest option potentially to use a Luton to London Thameslink ticket and then walk the final mile from Farringdon?

That's what I did for about 10 years!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, is the cheapest option potentially to use a Luton to London Thameslink ticket and then walk the final mile from Farringdon?

That's what I did for about 10 years!

Done that myself in the past. Not the worst walk as long you're not in a hurry and it's not raining too heavily.

 

[Mojo]

not raining too heavily.

And I suppose now even if it was raining you could walk along the Elizabeth line platform, up the lift to Barbican, along the platforms at Barbican, cross the road and then walk through the Beech Street tunnel, meaning the majority of your walk to Moorgate would be under cover

 

[Edvid]

I don't think access to Barbican is permitted with a London Thameslink ticket though. The Barbican-end of Farringdon station should be fine, though I wouldn't be surprised if TfL staff there have tried to claim otherwise...

 

[Mojo]

I don't think access to Barbican is permitted with a London Thameslink ticket though. The Barbican-end of Farringdon station should be fine, though I wouldn't be surprised if TfL staff there have tried to claim otherwise...

Just explain to the staff that you have come out of the exit from Farringdon, although given how often the station is left unstaffed…

Also, the other exit (at the East End of the EL platforms) despite being branded up for Elizabeth line is actually staffed and operated by London Underground, as opposed to TfL.

 

[Dan A]

Just explain to the staff that you have come out of the exit from Farringdon, although given how often the station is left unstaffed…

Also, the other exit (at the East End of the EL platforms) despite being branded up for Elizabeth line is actually staffed and operated by London Underground, as opposed to TfL.

I don't think access to Barbican is permitted with a London Thameslink ticket though. The Barbican-end of Farringdon station should be fine, though I wouldn't be surprised if TfL staff there have tried to claim otherwise...

When it's raining, I will get off my Thameslink train at ZFD and walk the length of the EL platforms to the Barbican exit, as it means my route to the office is (mostly) under cover.

The gateline staff are NOT happy with me doing this with a paper ticket, even though I've been doing it for months with a KeyGo card which does work on the gates just fine (stopped using KeyGo recently because it's, uh, quite buggy, although at the Barbican EL gateline I never had any issues with journeys not being recorded).
I argue for a moment, and they let me out. Eventually. Going back the other way is potluck to whether they make me walk in the rain round Smithfield's.

As far as I am aware, I am well within my rights to do this because it's part of the same station 'complex', right? They're simply different exits to the same station, ZFD?

 

[Watershed]

When it's raining, I will get off my Thameslink train at ZFD and walk the length of the EL platforms to the Barbican exit, as it means my route to the office is (mostly) under cover.

The gateline staff are NOT happy with me doing this with a paper ticket, even though I've been doing it for months with a KeyGo card which does work on the gates just fine (stopped using KeyGo recently because it's, uh, quite buggy, although at the Barbican EL gateline I never had any issues with journeys not being recorded).
I argue for a moment, and they let me out. Eventually. Going back the other way is potluck to whether they make me walk in the rain round Smithfield's.

As far as I am aware, I am well within my rights to do this because it's part of the same station 'complex', right? They're simply different exits to the same station, ZFD?

That's right. They shouldn't be arguing over such basic stuff. It's not as if the Barbican-side entrance to the Elizabeth line is some kind of secret - it's signposted from that end of the platform!

I'd make a complaint to TfL every time it happens, and follow up all the way to London TravelWatch if you don't get a satisfactory response.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As far as I am aware, I am well within my rights to do this because it's part of the same station 'complex', right? They're simply different exits to the same station, ZFD?

Liverpool Street EL's another fun one, as it's operationally part of Moorgate.

 

[DavyCrocket]

When it's raining, I will get off my Thameslink train at ZFD and walk the length of the EL platforms to the Barbican exit, as it means my route to the office is (mostly) under cover.

The gateline staff are NOT happy with me doing this with a paper ticket, even though I've been doing it for months with a KeyGo card which does work on the gates just fine (stopped using KeyGo recently because it's, uh, quite buggy, although at the Barbican EL gateline I never had any issues with journeys not being recorded).
I argue for a moment, and they let me out. Eventually. Going back the other way is potluck to whether they make me walk in the rain round Smithfield's.

As far as I am aware, I am well within my rights to do this because it's part of the same station 'complex', right? They're simply different exits to the same station, ZFD?

Barbican is a separate station to Farringdon.

 

[JonathanH]

Barbican is a separate station to Farringdon.

Yes. There is a bit of a parallel to the Waterloo East / Southwark situation, where London Terminals tickets aren't valid to exit Southwark station, having arrived on a National Rail service at Waterloo East.

If Barbican and Farringdon are not considered one station despite there being a link within the 'complex', then effectively London Thameslink stations aren't valid in the lift between Farringdon and Barbican, and Barbican's gateline doesn't act as an exit from Farringdon. Perhaps some signage is needed by the lift.

 

[Mojo]

Barbican is a separate station to Farringdon.

The way I read his post he was referring to the “Barbican exit” to Farringdon station as opposed to the exit of Barbican LU station. This is the ticket hall at the junction of Lindsey Street and Long Lane which has Elizabeth line roundels and signage but is staffed by London Underground staff.

 

[JonathanH]

The way I read his post he was referring to the “Barbican exit” to Farringdon station as opposed to the exit of Barbican LU station. This is the ticket hall at the junction of Lindsey Street and Long Lane which has Elizabeth line roundels and signage but is staffed by London Underground staff.

Presumably it is possible that TfL genuinely don't want people with London Thameslink tickets to use that exit, as being part of the Elizabeth Line station, rather than the Thameslink station, even though it is all Farringdon?

In a similar manner, are London Terminals tickets accepted for exit at the District / Circle line exit from Paddington on Praed Street for passengers who use the Elizabeth Line and circulate via the Bakerloo link and escalators?

 

[mikeb42]

Some/more terminological exactitude is required.

Dan A refers to the "Barbican EL gateline" which doesn't strictly exist.

There is an EL Farringdon gateline at the Barbican end of Farringdon Station (the big sign over the door saying "Farringdon" being the literally several foot high giveaway - no sarcasm is intended here but having had the same argument with the gateline "assistants" it's hard not to succumb to the lowest form of wit...)

There is also the lift access to Barbican underground station which is clearly a different kettle of fish.

If anyone knows of a way to get the truculent gateline operatives at Farringdon to capitulate to the inexorable logic of Farringdon being part of Farringdon without engaging with them on a philosophical discussion of the accepted nature of physical reality and how it apparently doesn't apply here, please advise.

 

[hkstudent]

Barbican LU and Farringdon station are two different stations in fares and also management.

Barbican LU is now treated as a LU only station and have no regular staff sharing with Farringdon station. It means that Barbican LU station staff don’t have NR ticket training.

The reason of having lift access from Barbican westbound platform to Farringdon station Lindsey Street exit (official name, and as known as Barbican exit by members here), is to provide easy to build step free access as the concourse of Barbican LU is constrained. It’s not meant in design to provide exit for Farringdon station passengers. Meanwhile, in all the signages on Elizabeth Line platform of Farringdon, there’s not even a single mentioning of the connection to Barbican LU, nor the station plan to include Barbican LU.

Even at the sign on the lift to Barbican westbound platform, it just only mentioned to platform, not Barbican station exit.

For most people without access issue, the obvious logical way is to follow the main corridor and keep on taking the escalator up to Lindsay street exit rather than venturing into a small lift lobby and then wait for a lift to go up. While those having access issue, it’s so unlikely to get up the stairs to Barbican station concourse.

Also, when arriving Barbican station platform, the whole station is branded as Barbican. That’s already enough to say it’s not an exit, and it’s a separate station.

I think I have gone too far here. Get to the topic of Bedford to Moorgate station ticket. Yep, sadly there’s a need of zone 1-6 travelcard or to walk from Lindsey Street exit of Farringdon station or to pay for separate TfL journey between Moorgate and Farringdon.

Presumably it is possible that TfL genuinely don't want people with London Thameslink tickets to use that exit, as being part of the Elizabeth Line station, rather than the Thameslink station, even though it is all Farringdon?

In a similar manner, are London Terminals tickets accepted for exit at the District / Circle line exit from Paddington on Praed Street for passengers who use the Elizabeth Line and circulate via the Bakerloo link and escalators?

I think the station in the UK by design, are not expecting passengers to do a long excursion across multiple platforms to get to the exit. It’s not like in Japan that people walk in a maze in railway stations to find exits.

Meanwhile for the analogy of Paddington case. It’s just not logical for most passenger flows as Pared Street exit of District Line is just 50 metres away on ground level from Elizabeth Line concourse, but the walk in underground corridors is multiple times more than that and include multiple steps and escalators.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Barbican and Farringdon have the same local pool of LU staff. All LU staff get the dismal input on acceptance of national rail tickets.

Barbican can be left unstaffed and open. In which case there will be no need to show a ticket.

Whilst it’s fairly simple to just let someone in and out at Barbican with a ticket only valid to Farringdon. It is not the same station and it’s around 150 metre distance from Lindsey Street to Aldersgate Street.

 

[Somewhere]

Barbican is a separate station to Farringdon.

Except there's an exit to Farringdon station which puts you onto the westbound platform at Barbican

 

[JonathanH]

Except there's an exit to Farringdon station which puts you onto the westbound platform at Barbican

That doesn't stop Farringdon and Barbican being separate stations. It is just an exit from Farringdon into Barbican Station.

 

[miklcct]

That doesn't stop Farringdon and Barbican being separate stations. It is just an exit from Farringdon into Barbican Station.

How about Moorgate and Liverpool Street? What should happen if one presents a London Terminals ticket, only valid to Moorgate but not Liverpool Street, at the Liverpool Street LU gateline, or vice versa?

The difference in this pair compared to Farringdon / Barbican is that Moorgate / Liverpool Street are officially signposted as connected.

 

[Bikeman78]

In a similar manner, are London Terminals tickets accepted for exit at the District / Circle line exit from Paddington on Praed Street for passengers who use the Elizabeth Line and circulate via the Bakerloo link and escalators?

In this example, I would only expect lost or confused people to do this. It's not as if they are trying to defraud the system. What is to be gained by making them walk all the way back underground? If I worked on that barrier, it would never occur to me to do this. Clearly some people just like confrontation.

 

[greyman42]

How about Moorgate and Liverpool Street? What should happen if one presents a London Terminals ticket, only valid to Moorgate but not Liverpool Street, at the Liverpool Street LU gateline, or vice versa?

The ticket in question would not be valid at the Liverpool St. LU gateline.
I believe it would be valid at the Liverpool St Elizabeth gateline.

 

[Horizon22]

How about Moorgate and Liverpool Street? What should happen if one presents a London Terminals ticket, only valid to Moorgate but not Liverpool Street, at the Liverpool Street LU gateline, or vice versa?

The difference in this pair compared to Farringdon / Barbican is that Moorgate / Liverpool Street are officially signposted as connected.

Moorgate is fully in control of "Liverpool Street" Elizabeth line station.

The ticket in question would not be valid at the Liverpool St. LU gateline.
I believe it would be valid at the Liverpool St Elizabeth gateline.

Which gateline are you referring to here? There's a small and new gateline at the Broadgate side (within the Moorgate footprint), but otherwise you walk over to the "main" Liverpool Street LU gateline to get to the mainline terminus (through which you'd have to go through gatelines again to get to P1-17).

That doesn't stop Farringdon and Barbican being separate stations. It is just an exit from Farringdon into Barbican Station.

Yes but a passenger could feasibly exit there without having gone through any other gatelines.

 

[Watershed]

The ticket in question would not be valid at the Liverpool St. LU gateline.
I believe it would be valid at the Liverpool St Elizabeth gateline.

Whilst there is a new entrance labelled "Elizabeth line" at Liverpool Street (shown here on Google Street View) you end up in the same 'paid area', with access to the same platforms, as you do if you use the older "Underground" entrances. So they are all the same as far as I can tell - it's just the labelling and age that differs.

I did encounter a member of gateline staff at one of the older entrances who claimed that I had to use the new "Elizabeth line" entrance with an Interrail pass, and refused to let me through, but TfL customer services apologised and said this shouldn't have happened after I complained (not that I believe for one moment that this'll prevent it from happening again!).