More four car 158s for Cardiff - Portsmouth services

[paul1609]

Yes you are correct the 5 car 158 becomes a 4 car 158.

Regarding overcrowding, don’t forget as part of the metro west service enhancements a relief service runs ahead of Portsmouth service in both directions between Westbury and Bristol which will take some pressure off the Portsmouth services.

Unfortunately it does nothing to meet the demand out of Portsmouth where the units are continuously short formed and if its a good shopping day or theres been an event in Portsmouth or the IOW the normality is that a supposedly regional express service leaves its first station full and standing on a 3.5 hour journey.

 

[JonathanH]

No replacement has yet become available

The unit lost at Salisbury was 'replaced' by axing the service to Brighton.

 

[Towers]

The unit lost at Salisbury was 'replaced' by axing the service to Brighton.

There is that I suppose!

 

[fgwrich]

Not sure if it is still the case, but are there 6 units that are formed as 3car (158 950, 951, 956, 957, 958, 959) that were originally 2car

So is the plan to split just 2 3car units into 3x2car and leave the others as 3car

Did the whole train involved in Salisbury tunnel junction get scrapped, or is there a part unit that could be used to reform another 158. I am guessing GWR never sourced a replacement unit so is still a unit down.

I’m surprised the remaining vehicle from 102 went back to SWR to be honest as a spare, than transferring to GWR to create another 158/9.

Not strictly true. There are five class 156s not doing anything. Four ex EMR and the Scottish one that was rebuilt by Brodies.

While there is that, the EMR 4 are rotten and likely facing scrap. Not sure about the Brodies one.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Why would GWR want to reduce a 5-car 158 to a 4-car???

 

[JonathanH]

Why would GWR want to reduce a 5-car 158 to a 4-car???

To release rolling stock for a small uplift in services.

It has been pointed out upthread that the expectation is that this will spread loadings over more frequent services on the core part of the route.

 

[DelW]

Why would GWR want to reduce a 5-car 158 to a 4-car???

Fully explained in post #3!

 

[43096]

I’m surprised the remaining vehicle from 102 went back to SWR to be honest as a spare, than transferring to GWR to create another 158/9.

I don’t think it has gone back to SWR. Both sets were written off in their entirety AFAIK.

 

[Western Sunset]

Please, not any 2-car formations. Saw a few around last week; full and standing for those "lucky" passengers...

 

[henryb]

During the GWR Devon and Cornwall Webinar yesterday a slide was shown by GWR indicating that from May there would be more 4 car Class 158 services on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services. No indication however as to where the 158s are coming from. Possibly from the current Tarka line services? Split and reform the 3 cars units? A while back I saw reference to possible reforming but no concrete plans. Hope they are not going to inflict Turbos on the Tarka Line.

Anyone know more?

Any link to this seminar?

 

[Snow1964]

Please, not any 2-car formations. Saw a few around last week; full and standing for those "lucky" passengers...

They are still doing 2car formations on Cardiff-Portsmouth, linking a couple of examples from yesterday, one a 2car 158, the other a 2car 165.

Realtime Trains | 1F15 1130 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1F15 1130 departure from Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1F14 1023 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1F14 1023 departure from Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Since when have 2car 165s that were designed for local journeys been suitable for these long runs

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

They are still doing 2car formations on Cardiff-Portsmouth, linking a couple of examples from yesterday, one a 2car 158, the other a 2car 165.

Realtime Trains | 1F15 1130 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1F15 1130 departure from Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1F14 1023 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1F14 1023 departure from Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Since when have 2car 165s that were designed for local journeys been suitable for these long runs

GWR's JourneyCheck shows 4 coaches instead of 5 for 1F15.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

They are still doing 2car formations on Cardiff-Portsmouth, linking a couple of examples from yesterday, one a 2car 158, the other a 2car 165.

Realtime Trains | 1F15 1130 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1F15 1130 departure from Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1F14 1023 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1F14 1023 departure from Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Since when have 2car 165s that were designed for local journeys been suitable for these long runs

The current issues with the 16x fleet has been well documented on this forum. Yesterday 2 of the 166s which stabled overnight at Fratton were defective for start of service so the use of a 2 car 165 was the only option to avoid a cancellation.

The railway has a long history of trying its best to maintain a service when there’s disruption and doing its best to at least provide a train rather than cancel because there were no ‘suitable’ trains to hand. Look at the 1980s it wasn’t uncommon for a LCHS failure to replaced by a non gangwayed DEMU with the majority of the train not having access to a toilet, arguably far less suitable than a 2 car 165.

Today there is still a shortage of 166s but all trains are at least 3/4 coaches.

 

[JN114]

Since when have 2car 165s that were designed for local journeys been suitable for these long runs

Since the alternative is cancelling the train; causing more misery and disruption to people’s journeys and likely overcrowding the following train as well.

It isn’t great, and nobody is happy with it. But that’s the nature of the beast at the moment. Until there is a fundamental paradigm shift in political attitudes towards investment in the rail industry; then welcome to the new normal. It’s not going to get any better in the short term.

 

[Snow1964]

The current issues with the 16x fleet has been well documented on this forum. Yesterday 2 of the 166s which stabled overnight at Fratton were defective for start of service so the use of a 2 car 165 was the only option to avoid a cancellation.

The railway has a long history of trying its best to maintain a service

One wonders how 2 units can be defective after parking for a few hours, but not defective at the time of stabling, otherwise why not notify the depot to provide 2 replacements.

This doesn't sound to me like someone was trying to ensure they were stabled in a serviceable condition, and/or reporting defects.

Or standards of staff vary wildly so one said ok to use, a different person said not ok. My gut feeling is something here is not 100%

 

[HamworthyGoods]

One wonders how 2 units can be defective after parking for a few hours, but not defective at the time of stabling, otherwise why not notify the depot to provide 2 replacements.

This doesn't sound to me like someone was trying to ensure they were stabled in a serviceable condition, and/or reporting defects.

Or standards of staff vary wildly so one said ok to use, a different person said not ok. My gut feeling is something here is not 100%

A train when it is stabled is simply shut down.

A train is “prepared” for traffic at the start of the working day and that is where faults can be found.

There isn’t staff discretion to say it’s ok or not, standards of staff has no bearing on this. The railway operates to a rule book and that gives clear instruction whether a train is fit to enter traffic or not.

You may not have been aware weather conditions were far from ideal on Tuesday night and freezing temperatures can cause issues with 30 year old diesel trains starting.

I’m not sure how well you know the Geography of this part of the world but Portsmouth is 2.5 hours journey time from the nearest GWR Maintenance Depot (St Philips Marsh), the route is also shut overnight for NR Engineering works so simply ‘notifying the depot to provide 2 replacements’ is not possible.

The railway is also not funded to have drivers booked on all night to move stock around the network, whilst this would make networks more resilient along with having a bigger pool of spare rolling stock, however the Treasury does not wish the railway to be funded like this at present (hence several fleet reductions across differing TOCs).

@JN114 who is involved in day to day fleet operation has also given an explanation of the current challenges.

 

[bramling]

One wonders how 2 units can be defective after parking for a few hours, but not defective at the time of stabling, otherwise why not notify the depot to provide 2 replacements.

This doesn't sound to me like someone was trying to ensure they were stabled in a serviceable condition, and/or reporting defects.

Or standards of staff vary wildly so one said ok to use, a different person said not ok. My gut feeling is something here is not 100%

It’s quite common for issues to be picked up overnight during preparation. Also the current cold weather can cause issues when trains sit around.

In terms of providing replacements, how are you going to do that? Fratton isn’t a major depot, and without knowing the local setup in detail I would suggest they are only an overnighting location for GWR performing basic work only. In fact I think it’s only a minor depot even for SWR. There certainly won’t be spare units sitting around. So to get a replacement it would be a case of searching around the rest of the GWR network, and even then it could well be the case there are no spare units. To get a unit to Fratton would require a significant unplanned ECS.

It’s a matter for debate whether it would be a good thing to have a spare unit booked for somewhere like Fratton, however again this comes down to cost. At the moment there likely wouldn’t be sufficient diesels available to increase the fleet size for this purpose, even if someone was prepared to pay the cost, though in the medium term it could be done.

This is one of the vulnerabilities of outstabling. If an operator has to stable units outside of a major depot, as is the case in many locations, you’re completely vulnerable should any issues arise. People do underestimate just how much day-to-day maintenance trains require to keep them going. It’s why you tend to see quite a bit of scratching around in the evenings with things like unit swaps and such like, as controllers juggle things to try and arrange for everything to finish with the right set of holes lined up for the next morning.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It’s quite common for issues to be picked up overnight during preparation. Also the current cold weather can cause issues when trains sit around.

In terms of providing replacements, how are you going to do that? Fratton isn’t a major depot, and without knowing the local setup in detail I would suggest they are only an overnighting location for GWR performing basic work only. In fact I think it’s only a minor depot even for SWR. There certainly won’t be spare units sitting around. So to get a replacement it would be a case of searching around the rest of the GWR network, and even then it could well be the case there are no spare units.

It’s a matter for debate whether it would be a good thing to have a spare unit booked for somewhere like Fratton, however again this comes down to cost. At the moment there likely wouldn’t be sufficient diesels available to increase the fleet size for this purpose, even if someone was prepared to pay the cost, though in the medium term it could be done.

This is one of the vulnerabilities of outstabling. If an operator has to stable units outside of a major depot, as is the case in many locations, you’re completely vulnerable should any issues arise. People do underestimate just how much day-to-day maintenance trains require to keep them going.

Indeed, the OP seems to have missed the well documented on this forum funding issues with regards to Railway Network at present with treasury dictated cuts to budgets and fleets.

In a Utopian world spare rolling stock would be provided at outstations however it is clear the treasury would sooner require any rolling stock not diagrammed for traffic to replace more expensive rolling stock allowing that stock to go for scrap.

 

[Snow1964]

This is one of the vulnerabilities of outstabling. If an operator has to stable units outside of a major depot, as is the case in many locations, you’re completely vulnerable should any issues arise. People do underestimate just how much day-to-day maintenance trains require to keep them going. It’s why you tend to see quite a bit of scratching around in the evenings with things like unit swaps and such like, as controllers juggle things to try and arrange for everything to finish with the right set of holes lined up for the next morning.

You are correct, outstabling is risky when (class 166) trains are that old, so presumably using even older 158s increases the risk.

Which makes the idea of extra 158s on Portsmouth-Cardiff seem a high risk compromise. A sort of least worse solution.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You are correct, outstabling is risky when (class 166) trains are that old, so presumably using even older 158s increases the risk.

Which makes the idea of extra 158s on Portsmouth-Cardiff seem a high risk compromise. A sort of least worse solution.

The only way to mitigate this risk until DfT approve the new rolling stock for GWR (detailed on this forum elsewhere as the Churchwood Programme) would be to cease running the trains which stable overnight at Fratton but this would leave such an unusable service it would not be sustainable.

I understand GWR is the only franchise where the entire regional DMU fleet is ex BR.

 

[ZL exile]

A train when it is stabled is simply shut down.

A train is “prepared” for traffic at the start of the working day and that is where faults can be found.

There isn’t staff discretion to say it’s ok or not, standards of staff has no bearing on this. The railway operates to a rule book and that gives clear instruction whether a train is fit to enter traffic or not.

You may not have been aware weather conditions were far from ideal on Tuesday night and freezing temperatures can cause issues with 30 year old diesel trains starting.

I’m not sure how well you know the Geography of this part of the world but Portsmouth is 2.5 hours journey time from the nearest GWR Maintenance Depot (St Philips Marsh), the route is also shut overnight for NR Engineering works so simply ‘notifying the depot to provide 2 replacements’ is not possible.

The railway is also not funded to have drivers booked on all night to move stock around the network, whilst this would make networks more resilient along with having a bigger pool of spare rolling stock, however the Treasury does not wish the railway to be funded like this at present (hence several fleet reductions across differing TOCs).

@JN114 who is involved in day to day fleet operation has also given an explanation of the current challenges.

Might be 2.5 hours from Bristol, but not from Reading, closer to an hour!

 

[JN114]

Might be 2.5 hours from Bristol, but not from Reading, closer to an hour!

1hr 45mins best possible path from Reading to Portsmouth; and nobody at GWR signs the road via either route; nor are the units gauge cleared for them.

Besides, the West has “slack” in their Turbo fleet in that they can short-form trains to free up units. Thames Valley does not, there are precisely 2 passenger trains in the Thames Valley formed of a pair of Turbos per day. So it then comes down to which set of Basingstoke, Redhill/Gatwick or Oxford workings are you cancelling to provide the extra units?

 

[fgwrich]

Might be 2.5 hours from Bristol, but not from Reading, closer to an hour!

And do you think Reading has enough units to spare, let alone find paths for gauge cleared units? Along with any drivers with route knowledge too.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Might be 2.5 hours from Bristol, but not from Reading, closer to an hour!

Similar journey time from Reading to Portsmouth as Bristol to Portsmouth.

The only DMUs at Reading are class 165s and the route these would have to take is Reading - Westbury - Portsmouth as this is the only route between these two locations the trains are route cleared - the railway is far more complicated than just a big trainset.

 

[Benjwri]

The only DMUs at Reading are class 165s and the route these would have to take is Reading - Westbury - Portsmouth as this is the only route between these two locations the trains are route cleared - the railway is far more complicated than just a big trainset.

Not to mention Reading barely has enough stock to run its own diagrams on a good day. There is zero chance of Reading having a spare 165.

 

[ZL exile]

Not to mention Reading barely has enough stock to run its own diagrams on a good day. There is zero chance of Reading having a spare 165.

But staff could go from there to fix them, or do we not bother repairing units in 2023?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But staff could go from there to fix them, or do we not bother repairing units in 2023?

Of course units are fixed! What’s 2023 got to do with it? The same would have happened 35 years ago with 155s on the route.

Often repairs require the train to be over a pit road with necessary equipment. For a more minor fault yes repairs will take place at Fratton.

 

[Towers]

You are correct, outstabling is risky when (class 166) trains are that old, so presumably using even older 158s increases the risk.

Which makes the idea of extra 158s on Portsmouth-Cardiff seem a high risk compromise. A sort of least worse solution.

The age difference, at this stage in their lives, is negligible, and the 158s are arguably in better condition. Either way they are a preferable journey experience!

 

[RPI]

You are correct, outstabling is risky when (class 166) trains are that old, so presumably using even older 158s increases the risk.

Which makes the idea of extra 158s on Portsmouth-Cardiff seem a high risk compromise. A sort of least worse solution.

I would suggest that the 158's are in better condition all over, certainly seem to see less 158 failures (certainly in Exeter) than turbos.

 

[Western Sunset]

Warminster - Salisbury was closed all last weekend; wonder if this had any bearing on the "duds" at Fratton? Are the DMU sidings alongside Westbury Up yard, just used for stabling?