More Lockdowns?

[Yew]

Just wondering what your feelings are towards the families of those retired NHS staff who voluntarily returned to work to deal with all the ill folk who caught covid 19 and died?

That seems somewhat irrelevant to ensuring that there is clear basis in evidence for public health measures. Please stick to factual debate, and avoid irrelevant emotive rhetoric.

 

[nw1]

Then I'll ask the question again as nobody has ever answered it, why are so many in favour of work from home? if staring at the same four walls with nobody to interact with is not a danger to physical and mental health then I don't know what is, I see it as no different whatsoever to lockdown

I am certainly against post-Covid 'enforced' home working. It's not good for your mental health as you are not interacting people to the same extent. It's not good for employment rights as it's harder to discuss work issues in confidence with union reps or colleagues, and can you really rely on Zoom etc for private conversations? You are paying the electricity to do your work at home, not the employer. There is no air conditioning at home (or are we supposed to pay for that ourselves?) Result was that I had to work in 28C indoor temperatures during the recent heatwave - not healthy. It harms the general economy as you are spending less on visits to cafes, shops, etc while at work. What if your home internet goes down, and takes days to fix? What if your computer fails? etc. etc. etc.

Maybe we should all be counting our lucky stars that this is a cool, cloudy summer - as if it was another 1995 or 1976 we'd probably be struggling to work from home big time.

I'm generally very sceptical of people using the excuse of 'you did it during lockdown, you can do it forever' to enforce Covid working practices in the post-Covid era.

And (as someone who dislikes, for example, the Tories, Brexit and Trump, amongst other things - to give you an idea of my political leanings) I really don't think we can keep having lockdowns for ever. If we have to have a lockdown this winter, we'll probably have to have them for the next 10 years. Can we really force more and more people into poverty due to the bankruptcy of small businesses? Can we really keep borrowing money and getting further and further into debt? Can we really mess up people's mental health for that long? (I am generally in favour of masks and social distancing where appropriate, btw).

 

[Domh245]

And rightfully so. Having had the nightmare of trying to get a doctors appointment because of the backlog, I ended up in Same Day Emergency Care. Fully healthy, never neem to the docs in years - the pressure they are under is real.

Luckily, I was ok after my time in hospital. But with waiting lists piling up and wards being cleared to deal with Covid - then I think making some small sacrifices (face masks etc) is a viable alternative to letting the health services burn and those who work in it suffer for the selfish.

The NHS is there to provide healthcare to society - that it's been underfunded for years to the point of near-dysfunction is an issue that needs addressing, but asking people to permanently change their behaviours to match what the NHS can provide isn't remotely acceptable in my opinion. Whilst I don't agree around face masks, I can agree that making some small sacrifices to reduce risk to the NHS is something people should do if possible. Lockdowns however, are not "small sacrifices" by any means...

Nobody is saying "let the NHS burn" - but I'm genuinely concerned that the NHS seems to have become a national religion of sorts, with members of the public feeling obliged to protect and worship it. It's just a healthcare provider at the end of the day, but by all means do the selfless thing and lock yourself in the house to "protect" the NHS if you want

 

[Green tractor]

I am certainly against post-Covid 'enforced' home working. It's not good for your mental health as you are not interacting people to the same extent. It's not good for employment rights as it's harder to discuss work issues in confidence with union reps or colleagues, and can you really rely on Zoom etc for private conversations? You are paying the electricity to do your work at home, not the employer. There is no air conditioning at home (or are we supposed to pay for that ourselves?) Result was that I had to work in 28C indoor temperatures during the recent heatwave - not healthy.

Maybe we should all be counting our lucky stars that this is a cool, cloudy summer - as if it was another 1995 or 1976 we'd probably be struggling to work from home big time.

I'm generally very sceptical of people using the excuse of 'you did it during lockdown, you can do it forever' to enforce Covid working practices in the post-Covid era.

If you work from home you can claim tax relief on part of your household bills. You don't have the cost of getting to your place of work either. so the purely financial impact isn't just as black and white as you are making out.

 

[yorkie]

- then I think making some small sacrifices (face masks etc) is a viable alternative to letting the health services burn and those who work in it suffer for the selfish.

This claim that not wearing a mask (presumably an ineffective flimsy mask which doesn't filter virus particles is what you have in mind, rather than an effective FFP3 mask) is somehow making the NHS "burn" and those who work in it "suffer" is highly dubious and questionable (in my opinion) but I will ask you to please post your justification and evidence for any such claims in the appropriate thread to discuss the effectiveness of masks.

I will be happy to challenge your views there.

 

[Green tractor]

That seems somewhat irrelevant to ensuring that there is clear basis in evidence for public health measures. Please stick to factual debate, and avoid irrelevant emotive rhetoric.

What about washing your hands, do you have a problem with that?

How about the isolation of positive cases and (currently) their contacts, is there no evidence to back that up?

 

[yorkie]

What about washing your hands, do you have a problem with that?

What relevance does this question have?

 

[Green tractor]

What relevance does this question have?

He is asking about the relevance of the current measures/advice in place.

 

[Darandio]

He is asking about the relevance of the current measures/advice in place.

Which was clearly about masks. There's obviously a clear basis in evidence for hand hygiene.

 

[Green tractor]

Only if they are are backed up by clear empirical evidence and a proper impact analysis. None of our current measures meet that standard.

 

[Darandio]

The post talked about small sacrifices such as face masks. Basic hand hygiene isn't a sacrifice.

 

[philosopher]

Which was clearly about masks. There's obviously a clear basis in evidence for hand hygiene.

Recommendations to wash hands, cover your mouth when coughing and sneezing and staying at home when unwell all predate Covid. Lockdowns, social distancing and masks have only come a thing in the last 18 months. In fact before last year such measures seemed to be seen as either counter productive or unworkable.

 

[Green tractor]

The post talked about small sacrifices such as face masks. Basic hand hygiene isn't a sacrifice.

He claimed none of the current measures, not just masks, So presumably he means that even isolation of positive cases needs to be looked at again.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

I am certainly against post-Covid 'enforced' home working. It's not good for your mental health as you are not interacting people to the same extent. It's not good for employment rights as it's harder to discuss work issues in confidence with union reps or colleagues, and can you really rely on Zoom etc for private conversations? You are paying the electricity to do your work at home, not the employer. There is no air conditioning at home (or are we supposed to pay for that ourselves?) Result was that I had to work in 28C indoor temperatures during the recent heatwave - not healthy. It harms the general economy as you are spending less on visits to cafes, shops, etc while at work. What if your home internet goes down, and takes days to fix? What if your computer fails? etc. etc. etc.

You are aware an awful lot of people don’t have aircon at work either? And may well work in offices with windows which either don’t open at all or only open two inches? It’s far preferable to work at home in that situation than in the office. I can at least have an endless supply of ice cubes and cold drinks, can open doors and windows to get a breeze, can switch to cooler rooms, and can generally wear much more “weather appropriate” clothing.

Paying for extra electricity and whatever else is for many far cheaper than the cost of a commute.

If your internet goes down or your computer breaks then that’s trickier I think. If your employer has *told* you to work from home then they need to be patient whilst it’s fixed or they need to get some kind of mobile dongle or replacement kit out to you so that you can continue working. If you’ve *chosen* to work from home then broken internet/computer would mean you have to go into the office or make up the lost hours/take holiday.

I worked from home from around 2006. Used my own laptop. The benefits far outweighed the negatives and I would choose to do it again in the same situation. But I do think it should be a *choice* and not enforced.

 

[bramling]

I won't be abiding by one. If there is, I'm sure the poodles running the Labour party will be egging them on.

The irony is, these lockdowns are being proposed as much to quell flu and "other respiratory viruses", which will resurge entirely as a result of the previous lockdowns, so any new lockdowns will have been caused by lockdown.

The trouble is, we both said we wouldn’t abide by January’s one, but that didn’t help if we wanted to book a hotel or get a bunch of flowers for a funeral. I think back to when I wanted to stay overnight in London for the simple purpose of making it easier to visit the PRO in Kew, and it was a case of either doss overnight in my office or pretend to have a “permitted” reason to use a Premier Inn!

We need to resist this to the maximum extent possible, if we allow *any* kind of restrictions over this coming winter then the precedent is there forever, IMO.

I’ve been up to London by train twice this week, it has been so refreshing being able to travel by train and not think about masks. I wasn’t wearing them before, but this still meant feeling on the defensive.

 

[Merseysider]

We need to resist this to the maximum extent possible, if we allow *any* kind of restrictions over this coming winter then the precedent is there forever, IMO.

Precisely. This is the second year we’ve had on-and-off lockdowns - if we continue this into 2022 then there’s no knowing when it will end.

 

[LAX54]

It's a depressing question, one I fear the answer to. Do you think we will have yet more Lockdowns to come? It seems to be circulating todays media.

Britain 'WON'T need to lockdown' this winter to stop new Covid wave

The Office for National Statistics claimed 722,300 people were infected on in the seven-day spell ending July 31. Professor Neil Ferguson said the Uk can handle the pandemic with vaccines.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Unless you call a halt to Lockdowns, then this will just go on forever, have they not susses yet, that each lockdown leads to another one, someone has to cut the cord at some point !

I won't be abiding by one. If there is, I'm sure the poodles running the Labour party will be egging them on.

The irony is, these lockdowns are being proposed as much to quell flu and "other respiratory viruses", which will resurge entirely as a result of the previous lockdowns, so any new lockdowns will have been caused by lockdown.

I stuck to the rules, like most did, sanitising, and mask wearing at all locations, yet I still managed to get a stinking cold even with the magic masks !

 

[matt_world2004]

for the people who say they wont obey lockdowns kind of not have much choice if the business you frequent is close

 

[yorkie]

Unless you call a halt to Lockdowns, then this will just go on forever, have they not susses yet, that each lockdown leads to another one, someone has to cut the cord at some point !


I stuck to the rules, like most did, sanitising, and mask wearing at all locations, yet I still managed to get a stinking cold even with the magic masks !

You would need an FFP3 (or similar) mask to stop virus transmission; see:

The case for and against the effectiveness of face coverings and the mandating of their use

In order to avoid loads of more niche threads becoming overrun with the same arguments, I've created this dedicated thread to enable people to debate whether or not face coverings are effective at reducing transmission, whether or not they should be legally mandated in certain settings, and to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Class 170101]

The only reason for lockdown should be to protect the NHS. We had no flu cases apparently last winter so this coming winter could be interesting with a mix of flu and covid.

 

[Jonny]

The only reason for lockdown should be to protect the NHS. We had no flu cases apparently last winter so this coming winter could be interesting with a mix of flu and covid.

We've never locked down for flu in the past; the precedent needs to be squelched otherwise it might never be gone. Most of the long queues at hospitals that were used for party political aims in the late 2010s were partly due to the flu. In the long run, we need to treat covid the same.

 

[SuperNova]

The NHS is there to provide healthcare to society - that it's been underfunded for years to the point of near-dysfunction is an issue that needs addressing, but asking people to permanently change their behaviours to match what the NHS can provide isn't remotely acceptable in my opinion. Whilst I don't agree around face masks, I can agree that making some small sacrifices to reduce risk to the NHS is something people should do if possible. Lockdowns however, are not "small sacrifices" by any means...

Nobody is saying "let the NHS burn" - but I'm genuinely concerned that the NHS seems to have become a national religion of sorts, with members of the public feeling obliged to protect and worship it. It's just a healthcare provider at the end of the day, but by all means do the selfless thing and lock yourself in the house to "protect" the NHS if you want

Imagine that, free healthcare at the point of use and protecting others is something people feel empowered to defend and support.

 

[big_rig]

Imagine that, free healthcare at the point of use and protecting others is something people feel empowered to defend and support.

Great. How about the blue heart brigade do something useful ‘for the NHS’ like selling their cars, not eating crisps, cheese or beer and be forcibly made to jog in a park every day to reduce air pollution and lose weight.

Oh, hang on, they’d rather sit inside getting Waitrose and Deliveroo to their door, and not have to commute to work anymore? Funny that. Some sacrifice.

 

[Green tractor]

The only reason for lockdown should be to protect the NHS. We had no flu cases apparently last winter so this coming winter could be interesting with a mix of flu and covid.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...deathsoccurringbetween1januaryand31august2020 there were flu deaths, but less of them due to the measures put in place to slow the spread of covid also slowing the spread of flu, a larger vaccine programme and Covid killing some of the people who would of died of flu anyway.

for the people who say they wont obey lockdowns kind of not have much choice if the business you frequent is close

Its another round of "I'm not doing it" "There is going to be civil disobedience" etc etc that we have heard time and time again. Yet when it comes to it, the majority of the population stick to the spirit of the rules/guidance.

 

[Freightmaster]

Imagine that, free healthcare at the point of use and protecting others is something people feel empowered to defend and support.

'Supporting' the NHS is one thing, but advocating crippling lockdowns every winter for the foreseeable future
because the NHS in its current form "cannot cope" with endemic respiratory illnesses is unsustainable and
shouldn't be allowed to happen because it would destroy the country...



MARK

 

[bramling]

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...deathsoccurringbetween1januaryand31august2020 there were flu deaths, but less of them due to the measures put in place to slow the spread of covid also slowing the spread of flu, a larger vaccine programme and Covid killing some of the people who would of died of flu anyway.



Its another round of "I'm not doing it" "There is going to be civil disobedience" etc etc that we have heard time and time again. Yet when it comes to it, the majority of the population stick to the spirit of the rules/guidance.

I’d dispute that a majority of the population stuck to “stay at home” during the January lockdown. Naturally they didn’t use stuff like hotels or restaurants as they were closed, but people certainly didn’t minimise their time outside home, and that includes rules on socialising, meeting up, et cetera.

 

[Green tractor]

I’d dispute that a majority of the population stuck to “stay at home” during the January lockdown. Naturally they didn’t use stuff like hotels or restaurants as they were closed, but people certainly didn’t minimise their time outside home, and that includes rules on socialising, meeting up, et cetera.

I'm not saying people followed it to the letter, but people generally didn't have parties etc

 

[bramling]

I'm not saying people followed it to the letter, but people generally didn't have parties etc

The amount of traffic on the roads in the evening round here would suggest otherwise...

 

[Eyersey468]

The trouble is, we both said we wouldn’t abide by January’s one, but that didn’t help if we wanted to book a hotel or get a bunch of flowers for a funeral. I think back to when I wanted to stay overnight in London for the simple purpose of making it easier to visit the PRO in Kew, and it was a case of either doss overnight in my office or pretend to have a “permitted” reason to use a Premier Inn!

We need to resist this to the maximum extent possible, if we allow *any* kind of restrictions over this coming winter then the precedent is there forever, IMO.

I’ve been up to London by train twice this week, it has been so refreshing being able to travel by train and not think about masks. I wasn’t wearing them before, but this still meant feeling on the defensive.

Precisely. This is the second year we’ve had on-and-off lockdowns - if we continue this into 2022 then there’s no knowing when it will end.

Unless you call a halt to Lockdowns, then this will just go on forever, have they not susses yet, that each lockdown leads to another one, someone has to cut the cord at some point !


I stuck to the rules, like most did, sanitising, and mask wearing at all locations, yet I still managed to get a stinking cold even with the magic masks !

I agree with all of this, we can't keep having lock downs every winter it's not sustainable

 

[Merseysider]

I’d dispute that a majority of the population stuck to “stay at home” during the January lockdown. Naturally they didn’t use stuff like hotels or restaurants as they were closed, but people certainly didn’t minimise their time outside home, and that includes rules on socialising, meeting up, et cetera.

From a personal POV, my friends and I continued to see each other - we tested negative beforehand and weren’t putting anybody in danger by having a quiet drink or two in front of the TV.

Yes, the government can close whatever it wants, but people will continue to do whatever they’re comfortable with, even if it’s not allowed.