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Most cost effective improvement?

Haywain

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I don't think that's correct. I'm almost certain the Merseyrail order included an option for additional units (about 10 if I recall) though I don't remember when it expires.
Perhsps I should have said "is likely to be different". Any new order, even an option that's exercised, would have to mert the standards of the time and standards are constantly changing, that's why I would expect there to be differences.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Perhsps I should have said "is likely to be different". Any new order, even an option that's exercised, would have to mert the standards of the time and standards are constantly changing, that's why I would expect there to be differences.

There won't be differences to the extent of it being a microfleet any more than there were when the extra 390s and vehicles were ordered.
 

AlastairFraser

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The one I wouldn't be surprised to see is Wrexham, as there's a not unreasonable chance that TfW might cough up because it'd allow them to scrap the woefully unreliable 230s and release a 197 for something else, and be able to stop worrying about a line that is really more than a little bit of a nuisance to them.
And passenger count might actually increase considerably with a direct service into Liverpool from Wrexham. The few investments I'd think you'd want is perhaps charging siding at Wrexham Central in the space of the former second platform, a short section of 3rd rail to charge off at Hawarden Bridge and perhaps some signalling upgrades.
 

SynthD

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However the revenue from the freight operators will be much higher than the farebox revenue from the extra passenger workings. And passenger trains cost more to run than freight.
Will it? What would we pay for less road congestion?
 

A0wen

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Will it? What would we pay for less road congestion?

The freights on rail are travelling long distances. The vast majority of car journeys are short and most of the congestion is in urban areas or on very short stretches of Motorway which extra rail services wouldn't address.

To take the WCML as an example, there is traffic congestion around Northampton (because WCML freights are routed this way) on the A43 and A508 and A45 but extra services running from Northampton either towards Rugby or towards Milton Keynes would make no difference to this.

Nearer London, Luton & Dunstable have traffic congestion which overspills onto the M1 around Junc 10 and down to Hemel and Watford, but the WCML doesn't link Luton & Dunstable to Watford or Hemel - and for Hemel the station's miles away from where all the jobs are, which are near the M1.

So losing freight paths on the WCML won't fix road congestion.
 

aavm

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This week's Economist (paywalled online) has an article about HS2.

Maybe the best improvement would be learning why infrastructure here is relatively so expensive compared to other countries. Maybe we can learn from them rather than reinvent the wheel. Or maybe a long term commitment to build so many new flyovers or miles of new lines / OHP etc per year so can build and maintain a set of skilled planners, engineers, manufacturers.

Its not just rail. The new Stonehenge road tunnel (and viaduct) is priced at over a billion. The 15 mile long Lærdal Tunnel in Norway was less than 10% of that.
 

Haywain

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This week's Economist (paywalled online) has an article about HS2.

Maybe the best improvement would be learning why infrastructure here is relatively so expensive compared to other countries. Maybe we can learn from them rather than reinvent the wheel. Or maybe a long term commitment to build so many new flyovers or miles of new lines / OHP etc per year so can build and maintain a set of skilled planners, engineers, manufacturers.

Its not just rail. The new Stonehenge road tunnel (and viaduct) is priced at over a billion. The 15 mile long Lærdal Tunnel in Norway was less than 10% of that.
We do seem to like to gold plate projects and give them every incremental cost we can find.
 

Meerkat

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This week's Economist (paywalled online) has an article about HS2.

Maybe the best improvement would be learning why infrastructure here is relatively so expensive compared to other countries. Maybe we can learn from them rather than reinvent the wheel. Or maybe a long term commitment to build so many new flyovers or miles of new lines / OHP etc per year so can build and maintain a set of skilled planners, engineers, manufacturers.

Its not just rail. The new Stonehenge road tunnel (and viaduct) is priced at over a billion. The 15 mile long Lærdal Tunnel in Norway was less than 10% of that.
The Laerdal tunnel is single carriageway 50mph and goes pretty much straight into the side of mountains rather than needing long dug out portal structures.
IIRC mining a tunnel is cheaper than boring one so the Norwegian rock is better for tunnels?
That Stonehenge cost is for dual carriageway scheme about 5 miles long including a tunnel, a viaduct, a whole load of earth moving, and two or three multi level junctions with accompanying rerouting of side roads,
I also note from Wiki that the Norwegian tunnel is going to be closed for 14 hours every night for four years to bring it up to current safety standards - that doesn't sound cheap.
Bet the Norwegian Tunnel also didnt need multiple public enquiries and court cases due to fundamentalists challenging it!
 

eldomtom2

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This week's Economist (paywalled online) has an article about HS2.
It isn't paywalled for me for some reason, here's most of it:
Proponents of HS2 dreamed of a railway to rival those in Japan and France, linking Britain’s big cities in a feat of engineering worthy of the country’s Victorian pioneers. Instead the project has shown that Britain cannot build. The rump line from London to Birmingham will be one of the most expensive in the world, costing up to £67bn ($84bn) or £300m per km of track. It will also be one of the most pointless. A totemic project to boost the north will end up mostly benefiting London. A huge investment to increase capacity and cut journey times will, for some routes, do the reverse.

What went wrong? It is tempting to say everything. But several problems stand out. The initial plan was far too optimistic, not least because ministers kept changing it; legislation ensured that costs ratcheted up; and the company in charge botched important decisions.

Begin in London, where in March 2010 the then Labour government announced plans for a 540km (335-mile) Y-shaped railway linking Euston to Birmingham, with an eastern branch to Nottingham, Leeds and Yorkshire and a western branch to Manchester and the north-west. The trains zipping along the route would be among the fastest in the world.

Even at the outset, the economics were debatable. Passenger demand was growing and the existing lines were creaking. But Britain is smaller than France or Japan. Its large cities are closer together; they were already connected by rail. The initial budget was also hopelessly optimistic.

At Euston, for example, the idea was to squeeze 11 platforms into a small triangular plot between the existing station and a warren of residential streets. Immediately there were problems. When archeologists began to exhume 45,000 skeletons from a graveyard next to the station, they discovered an infestation of Japanese knotweed. Experts had to be drafted in to separate old bones from invasive perennial.

That was just the start. The work at Euston was supposed to cost just £3.2bn (all figures are in today’s prices). The budget almost doubled even as the number of platforms was cut to ten and then six. Euston was a portent of wider issues. In 2010 the government had said that the whole line could be completed for £57.2bn. The Conservatives were happy to go along with that, but the numbers were flimsy.

Budgets are much harder to stick to when politicians fiddle. “If there is one thing with megaprojects, it’s don’t make changes after you’ve started,” says Professor Bent Flyvbjerg of the Saïd Business School at Oxford University. Yet that is exactly what successive prime ministers and transport secretaries have done.

Tunnelling between Euston and Old Oak Common has started and stopped before now; plans changed so often that in 2020 £120m of design work for Euston had to be scrapped. The eastern arm of the Y to Leeds was severed in 2021. Another spur went in 2022. In early 2023 the Euston site was mothballed. Then came Mr Sunak’s decision. Contractors call this “political risk”, and Britain pays a premium.

Changes did not just come from ministers. Continue 50km along the line, a journey of around ten minutes when trains finally start running, and stop at South Heath, a village in the Chilterns in Buckinghamshire. These are the hills the project died on. For almost three years two TBMs, Florence and Cecilia, have been chomping through the chalky earth beneath the Chilterns, lining parallel 16km-long tunnels as they go with precast concrete segments. They have cost around £750m to dig before a track has been laid.

As well as those in the Chilterns, five “green tunnels”, some almost 3km long, will protect residents’ views and “connect wildlife habitats”. Almost a quarter of the journey from London to Birmingham will happen underground. Another third of the journey will be through cuttings, where high banks line the tracks. In a 45-minute journey passengers will have “meaningful” views for less than ten minutes.

Ensuring hedgehogs can get around is a fine goal. The tunnels through the Chilterns were extended after a vociferous local campaign. But tunnels cost about ten times as much as normal tracks; cuttings five times. A big part of HS2’s budget has gone on making sure a small group of people in the south of England will never have to see or hear it. As a result many more in the north won’t either.

That points to another problem with the project: the way Parliament legislated for it. The bill in 2017 which gave HS2 Ltd, a public body, the power to acquire land detailed so many specifications that it ran to 50,000 pages. Critically, it gave councils the power to petition for design changes and to hold up work if they were unhappy. Having asked for tunnels, for example, councils then tried to stop them by denying access routes for lorries.

One case brought by Buckinghamshire council ran for nine months before the High Court threw it out. The council could be litigious partly because it had 15 dedicated planning officers paid for by HS2. Keep on for another 170km and, just before Lichfield, look out of the window to admire the Whittington Heath Golf Club. HS2 Ltd needed £400,000-worth of land from the club; to smooth things over it bankrolled a £7m development, including a new clubhouse (the chairman was “delighted”).

Since 2017 HS2 has had to obtain more than 8,000 planning and environmental consents. It has gone to court more than 20 times. Such hold-ups are the biggest cause of uncertainty and higher costs in Britain, says Ricardo Ferreras of Ferrovial, which has built high-speed lines around the world. Other countries, notably France, grant sweeping planning powers and take a standardised approach to compensation.

Another big issue was the failure of HS2 Ltd to control costs. Effective project management and accounting should have led to tough questions. Instead, one civil servant complained that HS2 acted “like kids with the golden credit card”.

The company asked firms to take on construction work without basic information about ground conditions. That led to rampant over-engineering, according to Andrew McNaughton, one of the scheme’s architects, such as contractors insisting on installing concrete pile foundations where they were not needed. HS2 also signed huge contracts on a “cost-plus” basis, where firms are paid a percentage of the total value of the work. Sir Jon Thompson, who became executive chair last year, calls that “extraordinary”: it gave contractors an incentive to go over-budget and the company no “levers” to stop them.

As costs spiralled, the route was pruned and the project’s benefit-cost ratio sagged. In October Mr Sunak decided to cut his losses. In fact, he has made a bad situation worse. To see the problems HS2 now faces, continue another 55km along the original route to make a final stop at Whitmore, a village in Staffordshire.

Edward Cavenagh-Mainwaring, a dairy farmer in Whitmore, has been getting letters from HS2 for a decade. In early 2023 it finally acquired part of his farm, including one of his wildflower meadows. More of his fields were bought days before Mr Sunak announced that the Manchester leg would be scrapped. HS2 has spent over £600m ($755m) on land and property like this that it apparently no longer needs. Before it can be sold off again, there are miles of fences to take down and 1,800 boreholes to fill. Compulsory purchase is a slow and painful process. Undoing it will be, too.

Yet returning Mr Cavenagh-Mainwaring’s farm would not solve the real problem, which is that the rump line makes no sense. According to Mr Sunak, HS2 trains will run at up to 360kph (225mph) to Birmingham before switching to old tracks to trundle up to Manchester. But high-speed trains were not designed to run on the old track; they cannot tilt as they go round corners, meaning they would take longer than the current Pendolino trains.

The original plan was for 400-metre-long HS2 trains, capable of carrying 1,100 passengers, to run from London to an upgraded station at Manchester Piccadilly. With that station no longer being built, trains will need to be split, leaving them with less capacity than current trains. It is already too late to make changes to the rolling stock HS2 has ordered, Sir Jon has told MPs. As a result services from Birmingham northward are likely to be worse once HS2 has been completed.

The only way to rescue any value from the project would be to complete the section between Birmingham and Crewe, says Jim Steer, a civil engineer. This bit is critical because it would relieve pressure on the most congested section of the existing line. Sir Keir Starmer, the leader of the opposition, says Labour won’t complete the whole project but will look at options if it enters government after an election later this year. But whatever it decides, Britain’s grand project has turned into a nightmare.
It's clear that fundamentally the problem with HS2 is that costs have ballooned.
 

The exile

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The Laerdal tunnel is single carriageway 50mph and goes pretty much straight into the side of mountains rather than needing long dug out portal structures.
IIRC mining a tunnel is cheaper than boring one so the Norwegian rock is better for tunnels?
That Stonehenge cost is for dual carriageway scheme about 5 miles long including a tunnel, a viaduct, a whole load of earth moving, and two or three multi level junctions with accompanying rerouting of side roads,
I also note from Wiki that the Norwegian tunnel is going to be closed for 14 hours every night for four years to bring it up to current safety standards - that doesn't sound cheap.
Bet the Norwegian Tunnel also didnt need multiple public enquiries and court cases due to fundamentalists challenging it!
I also suspect that the Norwegian tunnel is nowhere near one of the most famous prehistoric sites in the world. I’m guessing that a lot of the work on, and cost of, the Stonehenge tunnel is going to be archaeological.
 

Pigeon

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How about banning cash payments. Disproportionately used for small fares and a security risk too.

Go on, make it permanently impossible for me to use the railways ever at all for anything, why don't you.

We do seem to like to gold plate projects and give them every incremental cost we can find.

You reckon? To me it seems closer to the other way around. We cut corners and cheap out on things to the point that a new project can handle exactly and only the very specific service that is planned for it, and can only do that as long as everything goes like clockwork and nothing breaks down, no staff get sick, no events elsewhere disrupt things etc. When that service ceases to be adequate for the number of people using it, or extra capacity on the new bit would solve some other awkward problem, or similar, we then find it's not possible to improve matters because the new bit is too limited to cope, unless it is upgraded - which doesn't happen, because it's ridiculously disproportionately more expensive to upgrade it after it's in service than it would have been to have done the equivalent work in the first place.

For instance if you watch a cab ride video over the reopened north end of the Waverley route, you see things like excessively short platforms, single line sections in silly places, and restrictive layouts at the Edinburgh end. If (when) more people want to use it than the current service can cope with, it can handle neither longer trains nor more trains. Or there's the conflict between "East West Rail will provide additional freight routing options" in the official list of reasons it's a good idea, and "East West Rail won't have any paths available for anything more than the initial rather basic passenger service", from the last official document I read that goes into detail about what it will be able to do.

(HS2 is something of a special case because it's so very large and so very badly thought out; it manages to combine outrageous gold-plating (eg. pointlessly high speed) with similarly outrageous cheaping-out (eg. the Euston fiasco). It's not really all that comparable with projects on a more normal (ie. much smaller) scale.)

I think the best suggestion that has been made so far is that of removing bitty speed restrictions and bottlenecks on main lines. If you want to reduce journey times, it's far more effective to speed up the slow bits than to try and dash ever faster over the fast bits.

My own suggestion would be to stop having balkanised stock fleets with minor differences between sub-types that restrict them to operating over one particular small subset of lines. (I'm including the paint job and the name on the side among "minor differences".) Instead we should return to having "universal" fleets that can (by and large) operate "anywhere", or nearly so, and can be arbitrarily shuffled around as required to meet changing needs in different areas, on any timescale from several years down to sorting out on-the-day instances of disruption.
 

AlastairFraser

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My own suggestion would be to stop having balkanised stock fleets with minor differences between sub-types that restrict them to operating over one particular small subset of lines. (I'm including the paint job and the name on the side among "minor differences".) Instead we should return to having "universal" fleets that can (by and large) operate "anywhere", or nearly so, and can be arbitrarily shuffled around as required to meet changing needs in different areas, on any timescale from several years down to sorting out on-the-day instances of disruption.
Hence my point about completing 3rd rail electrification on networks where it is dominant, but you'll have to convince the ORR of the overwhelming benefits as they won't allow it.
 

Snow1964

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I would say best value would be lot more thought in line closures, with a what can we do that will be needed in next 1-5 years, and then do it during the closure rather than coming back and having another closure later.

The farce where a line is closed for junction renewals, but the platform extension, or overhanging vegetation isn't sorted during the closure.

That includes dealing with silly things like can't run 2x2car trains as platform is only 3.5cars long, where inconvenience is out of all proportion to cost of sorting it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Go on, make it permanently impossible for me to use the railways ever at all for anything, why don't you.

You have no payment card and are permanently disqualified from obtaining one, even a prepaid card? I rather doubt that; there are situations where normal bank cards may not be available but so far as I know there are no background/credit checks for prepaid cards as they are, er, prepaid, you can only spend what's on them.

To be honest I would expect railways and buses to go card only within 10-20 years. The saving is considerable and the lack of guards and bus drivers needing to carry cash means one big reason for assault is removed. And with buses the vast majority of people who prefer cash (older people and people with disabilities that make managing money hard) tend to get free travel anyway.
 
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yorksrob

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I would say best value would be lot more thought in line closures, with a what can we do that will be needed in next 1-5 years, and then do it during the closure rather than coming back and having another closure later.

The farce where a line is closed for junction renewals, but the platform extension, or overhanging vegetation isn't sorted during the closure.

That includes dealing with silly things like can't run 2x2car trains as platform is only 3.5cars long, where inconvenience is out of all proportion to cost of sorting it.

Introducing SDO on more trains would make it easier to have longer trains in many cases.
 

zwk500

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Introducing SDO on more trains would make it easier to have longer trains in many cases.
At a cost of fitting and maintaining the SDO equipment and training. SDO is useful if you need to run a much longer train a few times a day or if you have a very good reason not to extend platforms. However I'd argue it's generally better for passengers to have platforms that match the length of the train. What might make extensions easier is if they aren't tied to individual projects, but a general part of a rolling budget (like Access for All).
 

yorksrob

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At a cost of fitting and maintaining the SDO equipment and training. SDO is useful if you need to run a much longer train a few times a day or if you have a very good reason not to extend platforms. However I'd argue it's generally better for passengers to have platforms that match the length of the train. What might make extensions easier is if they aren't tied to individual projects, but a general part of a rolling budget (like Access for All).

Better still, get someone churning out prefabricated platform extensions by the Exmouth Junction method again.
 

AlastairFraser

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You have no payment card and are permanently disqualified from obtaining one, even a prepaid card? I rather doubt that; there are situations where normal bank cards may not be available but so far as I know there are no background/credit checks for prepaid cards as they are, er, prepaid, you can only spend what's on them.

To be honest I would expect railways and buses to go card only within 10-20 years. The saving is considerable and the lack of guards and bus drivers needing to carry cash means one big reason for assault is removed. And with buses the vast majority of people who prefer cash (older people and people with disabilities that make managing money hard) tend to get free travel anyway.
We shouldn't make it mandatory to use a card, there should be at least one method of cash payment at a station.
Should it be just a TVM to minimise risk to staff - fine, that can work, but it shouldn't be phased out completely, reliance on a single form of technology is never good.
 

bspahh

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Cheques are an inefficient, slow and unreliable form of payment. Cash doesn't have many of the disadvantages.
It takes time and hence money to count and bank payments in cash. There is a risk of losing money from counterfeits and from theft.
 

AlastairFraser

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It takes time and hence money to count and bank payments in cash. There is a risk of losing money from counterfeits and from theft.
It does, but the frequency TVMs are emptied doesn't have to be particularly regular - counterfeits are less of an issue with modern note scanner technology and the risk of theft can be minimised by the use of qualified cash transit vans to collect money monthly.
 

Nottingham59

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What's the most cost effective improvement to the railway?
Here are some more thoughts:
  • Close the network down two hours earlier at night and rearrange the maintenance programmes to use the longer windows for track access.
  • Use the technology of Autonomous Cars to supplement the driver. At first introduce it as a safety feature, like TPWS, to override the driver and limit the speed of the train or bring it to a stop if necessary. AV would not have used a fallen tree in the dark as the braking point before the Salisbury train crash. When the technology has proved itself, use AV to provide the route knowledge needed, rather than having to maintain route competencies in the workforce.
  • Abolish TUPE
You and I may not agree with all these, but I bet that some people in DfT are looking at such possibilities.
 

RT4038

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It does, but the frequency TVMs are emptied doesn't have to be particularly regular - counterfeits are less of an issue with modern note scanner technology and the risk of theft can be minimised by the use of qualified cash transit vans to collect money monthly.
But they do have to be emptied of cash regularly - to minimise losses of machines being broken into/blown up at remote stations/ in the small hours/Sundays when few people are around. Taking no cash removes all of these risks and costs.
 

yorksrob

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Here are some more thoughts:
  • Close the network down two hours earlier at night and rearrange the maintenance programmes to use the longer windows for track access.
  • Use the technology of Autonomous Cars to supplement the driver. At first introduce it as a safety feature, like TPWS, to override the driver and limit the speed of the train or bring it to a stop if necessary. AV would not have used a fallen tree in the dark as the braking point before the Salisbury train crash. When the technology has proved itself, use AV to provide the route knowledge needed, rather than having to maintain route competencies in the workforce.
  • Abolish TUPE
You and I may not agree with all these, but I bet that some people in DfT are looking at such possibilities.

Our service already shuts down at 22:30 - 23:30. Any earlier and its curtains for the leisure business.
 

AlastairFraser

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But they do have to be emptied of cash regularly - to minimise losses of machines being broken into/blown up at remote stations/ in the small hours/Sundays when few people are around. Taking no cash removes all of these risks and costs.
It would be cheaper to install CCTV with a fast response security contract. And it doesn't remove all of the risks, a criminal group could well install malware on a machine if they worked out how to access the hard drive.
We've already had this demonstrated with the Northern ticket machine fiasco, albeit that was malware that was affecting the servers, rather than stealing payment data or a payment rerouting issue.

Our service already shuts down at 22:30 - 23:30. Any earlier and its curtains for the leisure business.
You'd hand over a lot of the airport business to NatEx, Megabus and the taxi operators too, even if you preserved service levels at the major London area airports.
 

RT4038

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It would be cheaper to install CCTV with a fast response security contract.
Cheaper than what? Taking no cash removes the costs of fitting and maintaining the cash acceptance equipment, plus collecting the money from the machines, and the risks and costs of machines being damaged/broken into. I am unsure how CCTV will reduce the costs of collecting the money, or how the costs of both the CCTV and the fast response security contract are going to be less than the very few people who would not adapt to the electronic pay only regime and who would not travel as a result.

And it doesn't remove all of the risks, a criminal group could well install malware on a machine if they worked out how to access the hard drive.
Agree, it wouldn't remove all the risks, but installing malware etc is a risk which can be more easily mitigated against in the systems than anything to do with cash.

You'd hand over a lot of the airport business to NatEx, Megabus and the taxi operators too, even if you preserved service levels at the major London area airports.
I suspect relatively little business - most foreigners coming will either buy their tickets in advance - online, or be able to pay with a card. I like the reference to megabus, who have basically never accepted cash......
 

eldomtom2

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You reckon? To me it seems closer to the other way around. We cut corners and cheap out on things to the point that a new project can handle exactly and only the very specific service that is planned for it, and can only do that as long as everything goes like clockwork and nothing breaks down, no staff get sick, no events elsewhere disrupt things etc. When that service ceases to be adequate for the number of people using it, or extra capacity on the new bit would solve some other awkward problem, or similar, we then find it's not possible to improve matters because the new bit is too limited to cope, unless it is upgraded - which doesn't happen, because it's ridiculously disproportionately more expensive to upgrade it after it's in service than it would have been to have done the equivalent work in the first place.

For instance if you watch a cab ride video over the reopened north end of the Waverley route, you see things like excessively short platforms, single line sections in silly places, and restrictive layouts at the Edinburgh end. If (when) more people want to use it than the current service can cope with, it can handle neither longer trains nor more trains. Or there's the conflict between "East West Rail will provide additional freight routing options" in the official list of reasons it's a good idea, and "East West Rail won't have any paths available for anything more than the initial rather basic passenger service", from the last official document I read that goes into detail about what it will be able to do.

(HS2 is something of a special case because it's so very large and so very badly thought out; it manages to combine outrageous gold-plating (eg. pointlessly high speed) with similarly outrageous cheaping-out (eg. the Euston fiasco). It's not really all that comparable with projects on a more normal (ie. much smaller) scale.)
I don't see how it has to be one or the other - something like HS2 is definitely a case of high costs leading to cutbacks in scope...
 

AlastairFraser

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Cheaper than what? Taking no cash removes the costs of fitting and maintaining the cash acceptance equipment, plus collecting the money from the machines, and the risks and costs of machines being damaged/broken into. I am unsure how CCTV will reduce the costs of collecting the money, or how the costs of both the CCTV and the fast response security contract are going to be less than the very few people who would not adapt to the electronic pay only regime and who would not travel as a result.
Cheaper than regular collection I meant, and CCTV is already a requirement for vulnerable groups to feel safe using the rail anyway (especially on DOO networks).
Agree, it wouldn't remove all the risks, but installing malware etc is a risk which can be more easily mitigated against in the systems than anything to do with cash.
It depends how much you want to spend on TVMs.
I suspect relatively little business - most foreigners coming will either buy their tickets in advance - online, or be able to pay with a card. I like the reference to megabus, who have basically never accepted cash......
Sorry, it was unclear, but I was referring to @Nottingham59's proposal to reduce railway passenger service hours here.
 

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