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Most Unreliable Locomotive

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Master Cutler

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Regarding the Fell Locomotive, I'm a big fan because the transmission was pure genius, and I believe it could have been developed into a viable mainline operating locomotive had the funds been available.
However the projected running costs based on the prototype performance and the number of hours out of service led to questions about its future reliability which sealed its fate.
 
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DustyBin

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Regarding the Fell Locomotive, I'm a big fan because the transmission was pure genius, and I believe it could have been developed into a viable mainline operating locomotive had the funds been available.
However the projected running costs based on the prototype performance and the number of hours out of service led to questions about its future reliability which sealed its fate.

OT but there’s a working model of the transmission in the NRM (allegedly anyway as I couldn’t find it despite an extensive search!).
 

Irascible

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I suppose it's also worth bearing in mind that we have the luxury of hindsight. Those heady days in the 1950s especially meant that no-one really knew for sure what would work and what wouldn't, and so quite a few things were tried that didn't work out as well as were hoped. But that's how progress was made. At the start of the modernisation era no-one could say for sure whether mechanical, hydraulic or electric transmissions, and high or low speed diesel engines were the way to go forward. Most things were tried and the failures of the past helped to improve the breed for the future.

To some degree I agree there, *but* - we were in no way pioneers here like we often were. The US had been running diesels on main lines for decades at this point, and we licensed german designs for a reason. That we still had this fascination with steam & didn't want to give the shiny new units proper homes might well have affected some classes more than others, but everything we were using had to suffer the same conditions anyway. It's not like we also hadn't been maintaining diesel shunters & railcars for a couple of decades too, we also should have known better there.

As for what to choose, there seems to have been a great deal of politics involved - the pilot scheme certainly didn't have time to show the quality of a particular builders work or decisions before there were mass orders. Hindsight tells us we should have just trusted EE and filled up the gaps with BR-built Paxman-powered models, but that would leave BRCW/NBL/Beyer/Brush out there with nothing.
 
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Master Cutler

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OT but there’s a working model of the transmission in the NRM (allegedly anyway as I couldn’t find it despite an extensive search!).
Apologies for drifting off topic, but I've spent many hours studying the Fell gear train model at the NRM. It was located at the far end of the stored small exhibits bay at the end where the stairs up to the balcony are.
 

Clarence Yard

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The Baby Deltics weren’t exactly reliable

Until they were rebuilt. After that they were reliable and had a very high availability too. Bit of a bonkers concept though, for that type of duty.

The problem with looking at mpc figures is that, traditionally, the delay triggers for passenger and freight workings were different, passenger being the tighter with 5 minutes. When you add in the fact that some freight classes were not fitted with a boiler (“the CWA” in old money) - a big source of casualties, then you are comparing apples with pears so, in my ER days, you tended to split the comparisons out by group.

From memory, up until the mid to late 1970’s spares shortages (which knocked both availability and reliability, especially in the numerically smaller classes), the best ER all passenger type 4 or 5 was (by far) the Deltics and the worst was the Class 46 peaks.

When I moved to the Oak and got to know the ways of the Class 50’s, I came to the view that when they were good, they were very good but when they were bad, they were awful. The modern DMU equivalent is probably the Class 180.

From what others have said, the worst recognised design seems to be the Class 28 Co-Bo but the Class 17 must run it close.
 

43096

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What didn't help also was BR switching from prototype pilot scheme classes to mass production of diesels because they had to replace steam by a certain date, hence building 117 Claytons whereas it would have been prudent to build a smaller batch first for test. If BR had phased steam out over a longer period as on the continent there would have been a lot less waste and fewer bad locos. But I guess that is a whole other topic.
The Clayton decision was utterly unfathomable and qualifies for what Roger Ford I think called “Old Railway Procurement Disorder”, which is the desire of engineers and managers to find something better/a new toy to play with (Class 17) when what you have currently works very well (Class 20).

You could sum it up in the phrase “normal people believe if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, engineers believe if it ain’t broke it doesn’t have enough features yet”.
 

Jamesrob637

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TPE's Nova 2 and 3 has lots of faults. However I appreciate Nova 2 isn't a locomotive as such, and Nova 3 is often due to the coaches rather than the locomotive.

So would class 68 make the cut as a result?
 

DustyBin

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Apologies for drifting off topic, but I've spent many hours studying the Fell gear train model at the NRM. It was located at the far end of the stored small exhibits bay at the end where the stairs up to the balcony are.

Thanks, I found where it was supposed to be but it wasn’t there at the time (I can’t remember the exact location but it was in the warehouse). Next time I go I’ll have another look as like you I find the concept fascinating!
 

O L Leigh

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To some degree I agree there, *but* - we were in no way pioneers here like we often were. The US had been running diesels on main lines for decades at this point, and we licensed german designs for a reason. That we still had this fascination with steam & didn't want to give the shiny new units proper homes might well have affected some classes more than others, but everything we were using had to suffer the same conditions anyway. It's not like we also hadn't been maintaining diesel shunters & railcars for a couple of decades too, we also should have known better there.

As for what to choose, there seems to have been a great deal of politics involved - the pilot scheme certainly didn't have time to show the quality of a particular builders work or decisions before there were mass orders. Hindsight tells us we should have just trusted EE and filled up the gaps with BR-built Paxman-powered models, but that would leave BRCW/NBL/Beyer/Brush out there with nothing.

That's true. However, the political and economic position of the country at the time precluded buying from overseas.

That's not to say that engineers from the railway companies/regions and manufacturers were not visiting these territories to see what they were up to and learning from them, but the problem is that each seems to have come back with their own take what would work best. The Western Region favoured high-speed diesel and hydraulic transmission after the German practice while Bulleid (by now in Ireland) reportedly preferred two-stroke over four-stroke.

And then you get the internal railway politics and manglement. As you rightly point out the Pilot Scheme never delivered what it was intended to and the rush to dieselise simply meant ordering production quantities of myriad unproven builds while British Railways engineers and managers interfered with engineering decisions that affected the quality of the finished product. But at least it made it easier to identify the dead wood under the National Traction Plan.

It's true to say that we were not pioneers of diesel traction, but as we had to rely on domestically produced equipment from inexperienced builders we did still have to go through the same growing pains as if we were pioneering the field. Yes we could simply copy what was being built elsewhere, and to an extent we did (e.g. D800 class Warships), but that doesn't necessarily guarantee a good product. Taken globally there was no consensus over which recipe worked best, so engineers could easily be swayed into taking one path or another depending on whose example they had chosen to follow.
 

wolfman

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As a driver the 47s were the one that gave me the most problems.Always had bet with either guard or secondman as to how far we would get before they died.western region ones were the worst.
 

D6130

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The Clayton decision was utterly unfathomable and qualifies for what Roger Ford I think called “Old Railway Procurement Disorder”, which is the desire of engineers and managers to find something better/a new toy to play with (Class 17) when what you have currently works very well (Class 20).
Fresh from his triumph with the detailed history of the Class 21/29 locos, Anthony P. Sayer is currently working on a similar volume about the Clayton class 17s - to be published later this year by Pen & Sword. Watch this space!
 

david1212

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The Clayton decision was utterly unfathomable and qualifies for what Roger Ford I think called “Old Railway Procurement Disorder”, which is the desire of engineers and managers to find something better/a new toy to play with (Class 17) when what you have currently works very well (Class 20).

You could sum it up in the phrase “normal people believe if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, engineers believe if it ain’t broke it doesn’t have enough features yet”.

While the Class 20's worked well and reliably technically the forward visibility was an issue hence the concept for the Class 17. The ideal solution would have been somehow compressing the class 20 engine, generator and auxiliaries so a cab could have been fitted both ends. For the Class 17 as well as two engines that proved unreliable experience showed that being so far back from bufferbeam created a different visibility issue. The recent article in Rail Issue on the TransPennine Class 124 DMU's states that given the experience with the Class 17's it was a good thing the same engine was not used as per a prototype.

....
As for what to choose, there seems to have been a great deal of politics involved - the pilot scheme certainly didn't have time to show the quality of a particular builders work or decisions before there were mass orders. Hindsight tells us we should have just trusted EE and filled up the gaps with BR-built Paxman-powered models, but that would leave BRCW/NBL/Beyer/Brush out there with nothing.

Did EE offer anything conventional between the class 20 and class 37 ? If they did was there the capacity to build the same number as classes 24 - 27 ? I recall reading that the 26's and 27's cost less than the 24's and 25's but politics dictated BR workshops should be given the order for majority of the Bo-Bo type 2's.
While the Class 29's were a big improvement from the original class 21 I wonder if by the mid-1980's mechanically they would have been significantly better than classes 24 - 27 ?

Reading though while some issues were design shortcomings or unsuitability for rail application others were build and / or material quality. For the latter if they had been up to scratch some classes would have sound purchase.
 

Irascible

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Did EE offer anything conventional between the class 20 and class 37 ? If they did was there the capacity to build the same number as classes 24 - 27 ? I recall reading that the 26's and 27's cost less than the 24's and 25's but politics dictated BR workshops should be given the order for majority of the Bo-Bo type 2's.
While the Class 29's were a big improvement from the original class 21 I wonder if by the mid-1980's mechanically they would have been significantly better than classes 24 - 27 ?

Did we even need anything between 20 & 37? looking them up nearly everything type 2 bar the 22 seems to be RA 5 anyway. If it was decided there was a need the idea of a mid-60s BR built Ventura-powered lightweight type 2 ( borderline 3, honestly ) is an interesting one, with a decade of both experience & development in electrics / control systems ( Brush converted 10800 into a testbed for AC transmission in the 60s, I wish I could find out more about it ). Or perhaps EE could have attempted to slim down the 37... perhaps a 50 with the middle chopped out :p
 
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DustyBin

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Did we even need anything between 20 & 37? looking them up nearly everything type 2 bar the 22 seems to be RA 5 anyway. If it was decided there was a need the idea of a mid-60s BR built Ventura-powered lightweight type 2 ( borderline 3, honestly ) is an interesting one, with a decade of both experience & development in electrics / control systems ( Brush converted 10800 into a testbed for AC transmission in the 60s, I wish I could find out more about it ). Or perhaps EE could have attempted to slim down the 37... perhaps a 50 with the middle chopped out :p

If you slim down a 37 do you not arrive at at a 23? An 8CSVT powered 23 would fit the description of a type 2 bordering on type 3 loco and would have been fairly conventional (certainly in comparison to the actual 23s). Is that the kind of thing you had in mind?
 

Richard Scott

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If you slim down a 37 do you not arrive at at a 23? An 8CSVT powered 23 would fit the description of a type 2 bordering on type 3 loco and would have been fairly conventional (certainly in comparison to the actual 23s). Is that the kind of thing you had in mind?
With about 1350hp and less weight, a better prospect than a 31?
 

david1212

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If you slim down a 37 do you not arrive at at a 23? An 8CSVT powered 23 would fit the description of a type 2 bordering on type 3 loco and would have been fairly conventional (certainly in comparison to the actual 23s). Is that the kind of thing you had in mind?

Yes.

With about 1350hp and less weight, a better prospect than a 31?

Indeed and more so the original 1250hp class 30. This though was an earlier design in production 3 years ahead of the 37. I've had a quick look around but can not find out when the 1000hp 8SVT was developed into the 8CSVT. Given the class 23's were built before the class 37's maybe the Napier Deltic T9-29 was the only more powerful option EE could muster to fit the body and keep within the weight limit ? As it was initially the class 23's were initially 3 tons too heavy but accepted at 74T rather than 72T

Edit -
Reading further down this page it states the even the 8SVT would have added 8 tons to the weight so 82T rather than 74T. The class 31 average was 110T but over 6 rather than 4 axles.
Hence it seems EE could not match the class 25's and 27's at around 73T with a conventional engine. The 1550hp class 33 was around the same weight but achieved by eliminating the steam heating boiler.

Also reading this page and as stated above in the end the 23's reliability was improved considerably but as a small class inevitably were an easy target for withdrawal.
 
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O L Leigh

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Interesting, but this does rather pander to the old British Railways mentality that we must have locos of many different sizes as we had during the steam era, and, in your correspondent's humble opinion, this was almost as disastrous an approach as skipping the Pilot Scheme altogether.

I have in my own imagination an outline idea of what British Railways might have been like had the Modernisation Plan and Pilot Scheme been done properly, as I'm sure many others do. In this imagined world British Railways was properly funded and vigorously entrepreneurial and would have produced a much smaller number of standard classes. However, what happened instead was, as we all know, just an extension of the situation that prevailed under steam where they had big engines, little engines, some middle-sized engines that could do most things and some that couldn't, passenger engines and freight engines and shunting engines and some specialised engines for specialised jobs, all coming out from various railway workshops and private contractors who were all following what they considered to be the best practice but often ended up duplicating or overlapping with what others were producing. From an enthusiast's point of view this is great because it creates a rich and varied world, but it is woefully inefficient from an operational perspective. We may bemoan the beigeness of wall-to-wall Cl66s, but this is what an efficient railway looks like.
 
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Irascible

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I was mostly thinking that a slimline 37 would be a 37 with some weight reduction to bring the axle load down, and perhaps a revised cab like a 50. I'm with Mr Leigh in that I think the 37 ( better still a 2000bhp one ) could well have managed every light-middle duty aside from places with really low RA, and it might have been better to just fix those than build & maintain another class - the thread is a monument to why that was a terrible idea!.

I'd have liked to have seen something with a Paxman 16RJ though just to see what a new generation would have been like.

BR needed an express passenger class and a GP class that in multiple could cover heavy haulage, given there weren't any single engines large enough to build a 56 equivalent. I think the express class would have been better with twin high speed engines at the time - the package seems to fit - but a slightly uprated 37 would have made a good attempt at everything else. We're still using them now, so they're obviously a handy size.
 
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O L Leigh

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randyrippley

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.....................The Waterloo Exeter "Mule" was particular taxing for 50s due to the combination of high speed running on lines hammered by heavy motorised bogies of EMUs on the SWML combined with the high demand of the start stop nature of the hilly route West of Salisbury. It has actually been proven that this route is far more suited to hydraulic traction over DC electrical traction power as hydraulic transmission can shock absorb with better tolerances.......................
If you had ever rode the line in the days of the class 42 Warships you'd know how ridiculous that sounds. Failures were an almost daily event and the Warship reputation was so bad that passengers were pleased if a 33 or 35 turned up instead: it may be running late, but at least it wouldn't break down.
 

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I was told around forty years ago by a manager who was then close to retirement that BR did have a reasonable plan. It was going to buy small batches (10-20 locos) of the various designs on offer, try them out and then come back with large orders for a small handful of designs, probably no more than one or two of each Type/power range, with as much standardisation as possible across the fleet. However, the manufacturers lobbied the BTC, government or whoever on the lines of, “How can we win exports for Britain if our own national railway won’t buy support most of our companies?” The manufacturers won.
 

birchesgreen

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I was told around forty years ago by a manager who was then close to retirement that BR did have a reasonable plan. It was going to buy small batches (10-20 locos) of the various designs on offer, try them out and then come back with large orders for a small handful of designs, probably no more than one or two of each Type/power range, with as much standardisation as possible across the fleet. However, the manufacturers lobbied the BTC, government or whoever on the lines of, “How can we win exports for Britain if our own national railway won’t buy support most of our companies?” The manufacturers won.
Yes that's what happened, plus BR had set on a date to get rid of steam and needed a lot of new diesels fast. BR was under pressure to modernise, we romantise about steam now but by the 1960s that was seen as archaic by the media and the general public. It is interesting to see the road lobby propaganda which wanted to replace the route into Marylebone with road transport comparing "modern" motor coaches with steam locos which looked Victorian!

Of course with hindsight a lot of the mistakes could have been avoided but that is the same with many things. Ideally BR should have licenced a number of US engine designs and had versions built here but that would have been a "courageous" decision politically.
 

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Ideally BR should have licenced a number of US engine designs and had versions built here but that would have been a "courageous" decision politically.
‘Courageous’: this will lose you the election, or ‘Controversial’: this will lose you votes. I am not sure whether, even in the 1950s, even Sir Humphrey could spin this as an election-losing decision.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Generator issues were main problem. Was overstressed, English Electric wanted to use an alternator but BR wanted a generator. Should have been replaced at refurbishment but BR said cost was prohibitive. Also the KV10 electronic load regulator could be a source of issues.

According to Wikipedia, wasn't it because of the constant start and stopping issues on the route? Either way, that's where the Class 158 and 159 stock came in.
 

Irascible

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Of ourse with hindsight a lot of the mistakes could have been avoided but that is the same with many things. Ideally BR should have licenced a number of US engine designs and had versions built here but that would have been a "courageous" decision politically.
EE's engines seem to have stood up as well as EMDs - the licensed built stuff we did have, not so much. Paxmans had a licemse for an ALCO engine but I'm not sure anyone wanted it.

The other unfortunate problem with jumping the gun like the BTC did was missing many of the advances in electricals in the 60s which helped reliability - this is what prototypes & pilot schemes are for.
 

norbitonflyer

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I seem to think 31s were Mirlees powered originally. But reliability was so poor. They replaced the units with EE.
They did indeed have Mirrlees engines as built, and were classified as Class 30. The re-engining with EE units earned them a new classification. The same thing happened with Class 48 (D1702-D1706) which were converted to standard Class 47 spec, and some examples of Classes 21 > 29, 47 > 57, 71 > 74, and now 56 > 69. Class 73 is an anomaly as they have not been re-classified despite having new engines and suitable unused classifications (Class 32 for the 1500hp Cummins-engined units and 34 for the 1600hp MTU ones) available as they are essentially straight diesels and rarely, if ever, go within 100miles of a live rail.

EE's engines seem to have stood up as well as EMDs - the licensed built stuff we did have, not so much. Paxmans had a licemse for an ALCO engine but I'm not sure anyone wanted it.

The other unfortunate problem with jumping the gun like the BTC did was missing many of the advances in electricals in the 60s which helped reliability - this is what prototypes & pilot schemes are for.
BTC did add fancy new electricals to the production series of the Class 50, which didn't work well. Likewise the Class 74, which also had new electronics, was never as reliable as the older Class 73.
 

43096

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Class 73 is an anomaly as they have not been re-classified despite having new engines and suitable unused classifications (Class 32 for the 1500hp Cummins-engined units and 34 for the 1600hp MTU ones) available as they are essentially straight diesels and rarely, if ever, go within 100miles of a live rail.
Apart from the locos based on the Southern.
 

pieguyrob

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I would like to go out on a whim, and nominate the class 57 as an unreliable locomotive.

My reasons are:-

1) most of the 57/0's are laid up. My tour of carnforth 2 years ago, and, the diesel guy said 57006 is basically a source of spare parts, it won't run again. The number of DRS 57/0's laid up, is testament to this.

2) the GWR 57/6's aren't exactly known for their reliabilty, especially when other loco's had to rescue the night Riviera due to locomotive failure. GWR had to hire in 57/3"s to cover for them.

I just thought I would put that out there. I stand to be corrected. The reliability of the 57/6's has improved since, possibly due to the 57/0's being used as spare parts!
 

norbitonflyer

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Apart from the locos based on the Southern.
All right, some of the MTU ones are at St Leonards, the two Cummins-engined ones based at Derby are less than 100 miles from the live rail at Chester, and the Edinburgh-based ones operating the West Highland Sleeper actually pass directly over the live-rail powered (and four-foot gauge!) Glasgow Subway if they are routed via Queen Street Low Level. But how often do any of them use their 3rd rail capability?
 
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