My advice: Never book to travel with Grand Central

[yorkie]

https://twitter.com/GC_Rail/status/1680472571140030465

Unfortunately, due to a shortage of train drivers, both the 09:24 Sunderland to London Kings Cross and the 13:50 London Kings Cross to Sunderland are cancelled today. Customers may use their existing ticket on any alternative Grand Central service.

Er, what other services are on today please form King’s Cross to Sunderland? You already cancelled one so this is going to mean 3 train loads of people trying to get on one service

Is there a alternative route. Supposed to be on the 10:28. Was going to get the 09:24. Now we're stuck.

We have a 16:53 and a 18:23 service later today ^JR

Hi Terry, unfortunately we don't have anything by any other route. You would be able use any other Grand Central service today ^JR

I needed to be in KGX by 15:00.
The next service won't get me there.

The only other thing I can advise you of is to get a refund on your Grand Central ticket and book a new one that allows you to travel with different operators. Other than that, we've been unable to get anything in place ^JR

It is absolutlely clear that Grand Central have no intention to re-route passengers, as per the Article 16 of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO).

Therefore I strongly advise against booking any Grand Central service, unless your arrival time at your destination is absolutely non critical and you are content to arrive several hours late, or you are happy to spend hours of your time persuing the matter!

If anyone does want to book with GC and insist on their rights, they could ask to be re-routed and when the answer is no, obtain a new ticket (but do not refund the original) and persue GC, through the courts if necessary, for the cost of the replacement ticket. However this is a lot of faff. See the following post for more information:

Grand Central cancellation

I wonder if I might get some advice / info from the forum's cognoscenti..... I'm booked on the 08:59 Grand Central from Halifax to London tomorrow (28th). Because I'm a bit OCDish I checked everything was OK this morning and discovered the train was cancelled, which was a bit of a shock. Some...

www.railforums.co.uk

Furthermore, Grand Central do not operate a Delay Repay scheme; compensation thresholds and amounts are absolutely dire compared to other operators; that's yet another reason to avoid.

 

[mikeg]

Sound advice. I'm boycotting them on anything but an any permitted ticket anyway due to the whole compulsory reservation flag saga. And people want more open access? They're a cowboy operator basically, to the extent I'm now of the belief the rail network would now work better without their 'services'.

 

[yorkie]

Sound advice. I'm boycotting them on anything but an any permitted ticket anyway due to the whole compulsory reservation flag saga. And people want more open access? They're a cowboy operator basically, to the extent I'm now of the belief the rail network would now work better without their 'services'.

I don't want this thread to become a wider speculative debate about open access or whether GC should cease operating; this thread is simply to advise people of the dangers of booking with this particular operator.

As for the compulsory reservation matter, that's discussed in the following threads (and probably others too):

Making seat reservation on Grand Central

I'm planning to travel on a Grand Central service tomorrow. When I tried to phone the number according to the instruction from the website for a seat reservation, it told me it's not office hour and hang up. I want to travel on the last GC service from York to London tomorrow which will pass...

www.railforums.co.uk

Batley to Doncaster via Mirfield (Grand Central): No fare available?

Just been checking times and fares for the above journey for tomorrow morning (Sat 11 Feb) on National Rail, the only journey options with a fare given is via Leeds (£20.10), the Mirfield is given as a journey option but with no fare. Is this not considered a "permitted route", or is it just a...

www.railforums.co.uk

LNER app saying Super Off Peak Single (SSS) not valid via York if you get GC from KGX-YRK

I travelled from Kings Cross-Shipley today, and with it being a Friday, there was no restrictions and I could get a Super Off-Peak single for £69.50. But I noticed when using the LNER app that travelling via York - which is a valid route - if you get a GC service to York and then change, you...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[mikeg]

Sorry but was just making the point that GC are now a cowboy operator, a far cry from their earlier days. They are however not alone in denying passengers their PRO rights. TPE have form for this too.

 

[Ianigsy]

A colleague who used them regularly for Wakefield-London travel has now sworn off them, after being left in the lurch at Kirkgate due to a cancellation and being told by GC that he’d have to wait several hours for the next one, only to go to Westgate and be told that LNER were accepting GC-only tickets.

 

[BJames]

Have never used Grand Central, but their 'compensation' package is left wanting that's for sure. Had never looked at that before so thanks for bringing that to attention.

 

[redreni]

https://twitter.com/GC_Rail/status/1680472571140030465

It is absolutlely clear that Grand Central have no intention to re-route passengers, as per the Article 16 of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO).

Therefore I strongly advise against booking any Grand Central service, unless your arrival time at your destination is absolutely non critical and you are content to arrive several hours late, or you are happy to spend hours of your time persuing the matter!

If anyone does want to book with GC and insist on their rights, they could ask to be re-routed and when the answer is no, obtain a new ticket (but do not refund the original) and persue GC, through the courts if necessary, for the cost of the replacement ticket. However this is a lot of faff. See the following post for more information:

Grand Central cancellation

I wonder if I might get some advice / info from the forum's cognoscenti..... I'm booked on the 08:59 Grand Central from Halifax to London tomorrow (28th). Because I'm a bit OCDish I checked everything was OK this morning and discovered the train was cancelled, which was a bit of a shock. Some...

www.railforums.co.uk

Furthermore, Grand Central do not operate a Delay Repay scheme; compensation thresholds and amounts are absolutely dire compared to other operators; that's yet another reason to avoid.

Since the football fixtures came out I have been busy booking my train journeys for the longer trips.

I've tried to avoid open access operators where I can. For my trip to Hartlepool, however, the cost in both time and money of doing so was quite significant, so I am booked on a Grand Central train. It's a simple advance single Kings Cross to Hartlepool, booked on the forum's site as an e-ticket.

I am aware, of course, that they're only able to undercut LNER by the amount they do because they don't operate in line with what we believe to be the correct interpretation of PRO. I think this ought to be tested in court and I'm taking the same position on this trip as I did with last season's trip to Halifax - if they cancel my train I will request re-routing at the earliest opportunity, collect video evidence of the request and refusal (or Twitter screenshots if I can't find any GC staff at Kings Cross, or both), buy the cheapest ticket(s) I can that will get me there on the next train, ask them to reimburse me and ultimately sue them in the County Court. I can afford to be out of pocket pending the case and I can even afford to lose the case (which is an important consideration when taking legal action), but I would be disappointed if I did lose.

I don't see how, when any journey planner will tell you the earliest opportunity to travel to Hartlepool after my booked train is the LNER train to Northallerton scheduled to leave 3 minutes later, with connecting services getting me to Hartlepool 37 minutes later than booked, a District Judge or deputy is going to find anything other than that that was the earliest opportunity to reroute me. Not the direct Grand Central train that leaves two and a quarter hours after my booked train and causes me to miss much of the first half of the football match.

(In terms of walk-up fares the forum's site isn't showing me anything any cheaper than a £83.90 super off-peak single Kings Cross to Hartlepool route Any Permitted, so that's probably what I'd have to buy. Obviously if they cancel my booked train I will immediately check for any suitable advance tickets that might still be available.)

 

[yorkie]

Since the football fixtures came out I have been busy booking my train journeys for the longer trips.

I've tried to avoid open access operators where I can. For my trip to Hartlepool, however, the cost in both time and money of doing so was quite significant, so I am booked on a Grand Central train. It's a simple advance single Kings Cross to Hartlepool, booked on the forum's site as an e-ticket.

I am aware, of course, that they're only able to undercut LNER by the amount they do because they don't operate in line with what we believe to be the correct interpretation of PRO. I think this ought to be tested in court and I'm taking the same position on this trip as I did with last season's trip to Halifax - if they cancel my train I will request re-routing at the earliest opportunity, collect video evidence of the request and refusal (or Twitter screenshots if I can't find any GC staff at Kings Cross, or both), buy the cheapest ticket(s) I can that will get me there on the next train, ask them to reimburse me and ultimately sue them in the County Court. I can afford to be out of pocket pending the case and I can even afford to lose the case (which is an important consideration when taking legal action), but I would be disappointed if I did lose.

I don't see how, when any journey planner will tell you the earliest opportunity to travel to Hartlepool after my booked train is the LNER train to Northallerton scheduled to leave 3 minutes later, with connecting services getting me to Hartlepool 37 minutes later than booked, a District Judge or deputy is going to find anything other than that that was the earliest opportunity to reroute me. Not the direct Grand Central train that leaves two and a quarter hours after my booked train and causes me to miss much of the first half of the football match.

(In terms of walk-up fares the forum's site isn't showing me anything any cheaper than a £73 off-peak single Kings Cross to Hartlepool, so that's probably what I'd have to buy. Obviously if they cancel my booked train I will immediately check for any suitable advance tickets that might still be available.)

Sounds a good plan!

 

[maniacmartin]

I've only travelled with them twice. The last time was when I was going to Pontefract and due to a blockage on the line, we had to wait on the train ages and then the service terminated at Doncaster. There were only 4 passengers for Pontefract and it took them over an hour to arrange a taxi as they made us wait for the next train to arrive so they could merge us into one taxi. As it happened there was no-one on the next train who wanted to go to Pontefract anyway. They then told the taxi driver to take us to Knottingley when they don't even call there and none of us wanted to go there. Never again for me.

 

[Egg Centric]

Sorry but was just making the point that GC are now a cowboy operator, a far cry from their earlier days. They are however not alone in denying passengers their PRO rights. TPE have form for this too.

I'm not aware that anyone on UK domestic railway gives passengers their PRO rights. Does anyone know differently?

Am currently in a very long running (non legal) case with LNER about it.

 

[Adam Williams]

I'm not aware that anyone on UK domestic railway gives passengers their PRO rights. Does anyone know differently?

I have seen TOCs/OAOs "resolve" cases along these lines with a "goodwill payment" once the problem has been escalated high enough. They're very careful not to admit liability.

 

[Haywain]

I'm not aware that anyone on UK domestic railway gives passengers their PRO rights. Does anyone know differently?

I believe that train companies in Great Britain frequently adhere to the requirements of the PRO. This is because good customer service (which does exist on our railways) and the National Rail Conditions of Travel also apply and are usually good enough. PRO is generally something to be requested when other channels have failed.

 

[redreni]

I believe that train companies in Great Britain frequently adhere to the requirements of the PRO. This is because good customer service (which does exist on our railways) and the National Rail Conditions of Travel also apply and are usually good enough. PRO is generally something to be requested when other channels have failed.

Yeah, the issue for me is if I book an inflexible ticket with a "booked train only" restriction then I'm quite happy to turn up when and where I'm supposed to, as per my booked itinerary, to comply with that condition.

I accept that if, say, my booked train to Hartlepool were showing as 45 minutes late, I have to suck that up and I can't mitigate that delay by going via LNER, TPE and Northern as I might do if I'd bought a flexible Any Permitted-routed ticket.

I also accept that even if the booked train is cancelled, the TOC restriction still applies if my delay would be under 60 minutes. For instance, I'm booked on GC's 14.27 Kings Cross to Hartlepool. Imagining for a moment I were booked on that same train but only travelling as far as Doncaster, the next train would be LNER's 14.30 but the next GC train would be their 14.56 to Bradford, so I'd have to wait for that as the delay would only be half an hour.

It's when the passenger faces a delay of more than an hour that PRO confers the right to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity and none of the British train operators seem willing to comply with that, which in my view is unreasonable and unlawful. While it is all the train operators, obviously the open access operator business model does mean almost every time they cancel a train (the GC Doncaster example above being the exception rather than the rule), their passengers would incur a delay of more than 60 minutes by waiting for the next train operated by the open access operator that they booked with, so the entitlement to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity would occur far more regularly and the impact of non-compliance on passengers is worse.

 

[johntea]

I've never had an issue (touch wood!) with the 06:59 Bradford - London (boarding at Pontefract) or the 19:48 London - Bradford (Alighting at Wakefield) personally, any services in between those seem to be a bit of a gamble though!

The other few times I've travelled at times outside those there was once an incident meaning the train had to terminate at Peterborough - a balloon stuck in the OHLE so total chaos outside of GC control in fariness, I just went to the pub then jumped on a LNER when things got up and running again and another time a train fault meaning we got booted off at Retford but advised pretty quickly we could use the next available LNER departure

Despite their many issues it is good for the consumer to have competition on the route rather than LNER having a complete monopoly, I doubt they would ever be offering £13.50 advance tickets on a regular basis!

 

[themeone]

I had an issue with Grand Central just over a week ago, where both the 0921 and the 1019 from Hartlepool to Kings Cross were cancelled and it seemed the only alternative was to wait for the 1254 as they had "not been able to arrange ticket acceptance with other operators". Luckily I found this out before departing for the station but it was still annoying.

So apart from the probably small number who decided not to travel at all it was basically three trainloads of people squeezed onto one train, most with no valid seat reservation. I was lucky to get a seat for most of the journey, but many didn't, probably including some who actually had reservations for that service, as it would have been impossible to get through the crowded train with luggage.

 

[redreni]

I've never had an issue (touch wood!) with the 06:59 Bradford - London (boarding at Pontefract) or the 19:48 London - Bradford (Alighting at Wakefield) personally, any services in between those seem to be a bit of a gamble though!

The other few times I've travelled at times outside those there was once an incident meaning the train had to terminate at Peterborough - a balloon stuck in the OHLE so total chaos outside of GC control in fariness, I just went to the pub then jumped on a LNER when things got up and running again and another time a train fault meaning we got booted off at Retford but advised pretty quickly we could use the next available LNER departure

Despite their many issues it is good for the consumer to have competition on the route rather than LNER having a complete monopoly, I doubt they would ever be offering £13.50 advance tickets on a regular basis!

I'd want to see facts and figures before forming a strong view on the competition point.

Most of the cheapest rail journeys per mile I've ever done have been on routes where there is no competition. Conversely I'm planning on flying back from Newcastle after my team visits Gateshead because the flight is far cheaper than any train fare I could find either on the Saturday evening or the following morning, even though Lumo competes with LNER on the full route and Grand Central and Hull Trains compete on most of it (and I did look for splits). That was the same last season as well.

I share your desire for low fares, but I'd also like more consistent fares and fair treatment in the event of disruption, which in my humble opinion would be best achieved through regulation rather than competition. LNER is run by a company owned wholly by the DfT so if government policy were to ensure low fares on the route, it could achieve that very easily.

 

[Watershed]

they had "not been able to arrange ticket acceptance with other operators"

I can entirely believe that other operators might not have been willing to offer ticket acceptance using the normal arrangements. However, that doesn't absolve GC of their obligation to re-route passengers using alternative means if this happens - if need be, by getting out the corporate credit card and buying people new tickets at TVMs...

 

[Starmill]

I don't want this thread to become a wider speculative debate about open access or whether GC should cease operating; this thread is simply to advise people of the dangers of booking with this particular operator.

It's reasonable in my view to say that the ORR shouldn't grant licences to companies who have obviously no intention of treating customers fairly, and in any case in line with the PRO and NRCoT.

Lumo and Hull Trains are often poor, but very frequently they do achieve this when their services are disrupted. Grand Central are however achieving it far, far less.

I am aware, of course, that they're only able to undercut LNER by the amount they do because they don't operate in line with what we believe to be the correct interpretation of PRO.

A further reason why GC are likely able to undercut LNER so often is because they appear to be able to save lots of money by not employing enough train drivers. The service in post one here was apparently cancelled due to a shortage of train drivers.

 

[Watershed]

The service in post one here was apparently cancelled due to a shortage of train drivers.

A Northern driver replied to GC's Tweet asking them whether they had any driver vacancies - they were told "no". Says it all, doesn't it!

 

[SteveM70]

A Northern driver replied to GC's Tweet asking them whether they had any driver vacancies - they were told "no". Says it all, doesn't it!

I suppose it depends how many trainees they currently have

 

[Starmill]

A Northern driver replied to GC's Tweet asking them whether they had any driver vacancies - they were told "no". Says it all, doesn't it!

How shameless of them.

 

[Haywain]

I suppose it depends how many trainees they currently have

The cause of the shortage may have been sickness or similar.

 

[Watershed]

The cause of the shortage may have been sickness or similar.

That may well be. But if they couldn't find a driver to cover for that sickness, that suggests they don't have enough spare drivers.

 

[greyman42]

https://twitter.com/GC_Rail/status/1680472571140030465

It is absolutlely clear that Grand Central have no intention to re-route passengers, as per the Article 16 of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO).

Therefore I strongly advise against booking any Grand Central service, unless your arrival time at your destination is absolutely non critical and you are content to arrive several hours late, or you are happy to spend hours of your time persuing the matter!

If anyone does want to book with GC and insist on their rights, they could ask to be re-routed and when the answer is no, obtain a new ticket (but do not refund the original) and persue GC, through the courts if necessary, for the cost of the replacement ticket. However this is a lot of faff. See the following post for more information:

Grand Central cancellation

I wonder if I might get some advice / info from the forum's cognoscenti..... I'm booked on the 08:59 Grand Central from Halifax to London tomorrow (28th). Because I'm a bit OCDish I checked everything was OK this morning and discovered the train was cancelled, which was a bit of a shock. Some...

www.railforums.co.uk

Furthermore, Grand Central do not operate a Delay Repay scheme; compensation thresholds and amounts are absolutely dire compared to other operators; that's yet another reason to avoid.

I was on the 1058 LNER service from York to Kings Cross on Sunday 16 July and the announcement on the train at York was that GC only tickets would not be valid on this service. This was made very clear and a number of passengers who had already boarded got off grumbling.
The train was full so you cannot blame LNER for not accepting GC tickets.

 

[redreni]

I was on the 1058 LNER service from York to Kings Cross on Sunday 16 July and the announcement on the train at York was that GC only tickets would not be valid on this service. This was made very clear and a number of passengers who had already boarded got off grumbling.
The train was full so you cannot blame LNER for not accepting GC tickets.

How were the passengers who got off grumbling able to board the train in the first place if it was full?

 

[greyman42]

How were the passengers who got off grumbling able to board the train in the first place if it was full?

Simply board the train when the doors open.

 

[Wallsendmag]

How were the passengers who got off grumbling able to board the train in the first place if it was full?

Do you know how British stations work? The train is empty when announced,everyone gets on Tain Manager makes announcement , people with GC tickets get off.

 

[Haywain]

Do you know how British stations work? The train is empty when announced,everyone gets on Tain Manager makes announcement , people with GC tickets get off.

The train started from Newcastle, so your comment is very much off target.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The train started from Newcastle, so your comment is very much off target.

Oops so many different examples being used thought it was KGX rather than YRK

 

[Blindtraveler]

As somebody who now thinks very seriously about any train journey over a distance of 30 miles to see if there is a viable alternative, if I have decided to venture onto the ecml I'm far more likely to book with grand Central than any other operator on the route these days as they alone are offering the service at a price I want to pay using rolling stock that I'm happy to travel on. Same goes for cross country, stinky bogs and all.

Having made that good decision as a consumer based on my own personal preferences for price and passenger comfort I have to weigh up the pros and cons of the way they run their operation so my advice personally would be to think about what matters to you most in a mid-to-long distance train trip and pick your options carefully. I think for me the only time that the GC delay policy might be a serious problem is if using a late night working into London which was delayed a sufficiently or cancelled meaning that an onward connection homewards was missed with potentially a very long weight overnight. I would hope that even the most incompetent operator would provide some level of assistance here, corporate hotel account or taxi home from nearest station still being served being two examples