My idea for a St Pancras to Glasgow "Thames Clyde Express" style service

[MML]

If EMT were to take the GC HSTs initially to allow PRM modifications on their existing fleet, could these additional units be used to introduce a Thames-Clyde express service between Glasgow and St. Pancras once the modification work is complete.

A twice-daily extension of an existing early morning and evening Sheffield service via Derby, Leeds, Settle & Carlisle would offer an alternative to the WCML.
While London to Glasgow timings would be longer, it could offer an alternative product in a similar way to how Chiltern are competing with VT and LM on services to Birmingham.
And offer a welcome addition for those wishing to travel from the Midlands and South Yorkshire to Scotland or an opportunity for tourist traffic wishing to experience the S&C from a London terminus.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If EMT were to take the GC HSTs initially to allow PRM modifications on their existing fleet, could these additional units be used to introduce a Thames-Clyde express service between Glasgow and St. Pancras once the modification work is complete.

A twice-daily extension of an existing early morning and evening Sheffield service via Derby, Leeds, Settle & Carlisle would offer an alternative to the WCML.
While London to Glasgow timings would be longer, it could offer an alternative product in a similar way to how Chiltern are competing with VT and LM on services to Birmingham.
And offer a welcome addition for those wishing to travel from the Midlands and South Yorkshire to Scotland or an opportunity for tourist traffic wishing to experience the S&C from a London terminus.

Short answer. No.

 

[CosherB]

If EMT were to take the GC HSTs initially to allow PRM modifications on their existing fleet ....

Who says that EMT HSTs will get PRM mods? EMT have stated many times that they want new trains - particularly new EMUs before the electrification debacle came to pass. I'd imagine that a new fleet of bi-mode trains will be announced by First/Trenitalia or Stagecoach when the new franchisee is announced next year, with a derogation for the HSTs until replacement.

 

[LowLevel]

If EMT were to take the GC HSTs initially to allow PRM modifications on their existing fleet, could these additional units be used to introduce a Thames-Clyde express service between Glasgow and St. Pancras once the modification work is complete.

A twice-daily extension of an existing early morning and evening Sheffield service via Derby, Leeds, Settle & Carlisle would offer an alternative to the WCML.
While London to Glasgow timings would be longer, it could offer an alternative product in a similar way to how Chiltern are competing with VT and LM on services to Birmingham.
And offer a welcome addition for those wishing to travel from the Midlands and South Yorkshire to Scotland or an opportunity for tourist traffic wishing to experience the S&C from a London terminus.

No. Nobody has mentioned PRM mods. The existing fleet of HST sets and 15x Sprinters is on it's backside as it is.

 

[DenmarkRail]

It is a genuine idea though... Open access operator could easily present this idea, and could easily get clearance.

 

[daikilo]

It is a genuine idea though... Open access operator could easily present this idea, and could easily get clearance.

No clearance is ever easy; if GC wants to do it by rerouting their Bradford trains and extending them northward, I guess it might work, but into KX. Any routing over the old Midland into St Pancras would probably have to be non-stop to/from e.g. north of Sheffield to avoid abstraction (Normanton?). Probably no stop on S&C.

 

[tbtc]

if GC wants to do it by rerouting their Bradford trains and extending them northward, I guess it might work, but into KX. Any routing over the old Midland into St Pancras would probably have to be non-stop to/from e.g. north of Sheffield to avoid abstraction (Normanton?). Probably no stop on S&C.

Not going to happen. Much as people are fascinated with London - Settle - Carlisle...

 

[Bald Rick]

It would be unlikely to pass the 'primarily abstractive' test.

London - EMids and Sheffield already covered.
W Yorks to Carlisle already covered
Carilsle to Scotland already covered

All would be similar journey times.

London to Scotland could only compete on price, and it would have to be consistently cheaper than the West Coast. Given that you can easily get tickets London to Glasgow via West Coast for £30, you would almost have to give them away.

Finally there is very little market East Mids to Glasgow. There are three flights a day (prices start at £30, the train would have to be cheaper...) and you can get all the passengers from each flight on one Mark III coach.

So little market, and not much revenue. Not the sort of thing that (sensible) OA operators go for.

 

[MCR247]

Why would anyone use this if it is 2tpd? No need at all really, any extra EMT stock should be focused on increasing capacity on their current network :roll:

 

[IanXC]

On a more realistic level, I'd really love to do this journey on an HST railtour - with a genuinely fast path!

 

[47271]

Mad

Why not send it round Dumfries to be truly historical, and even more utterly useless.

 

[43096]

Mad

Why not send it round Dumfries to be truly historical, and even more utterly useless.

Any thread starting "My idea..." will 99% of the time be some daft idea that either a) won't work operationally and/or b) have so little potential demand that it would be a financial basket case.

Best just to laugh at these ideas!!!

 

[AlterEgo]

On a more realistic level, I'd really love to do this journey on an HST railtour - with a genuinely fast path!

As would I!

 

[Spartacus]

Nah, get a Peak on it and I might be tempted though, although having to no doubt overnight in London twice to do it would probably rule it out.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Mad

Why not send it round Dumfries to be truly historical, and even more utterly useless.

Any thread starting "My idea..." will 99% of the time be some daft idea that either a) won't work operationally and/or b) have so little potential demand that it would be a financial basket case.

Best just to laugh at these ideas!!!

Oh ye of little faith!

Whither the true spirit of entrepreneurship?

Have Richard Branson's achievements been based on negativity and cynicism?

I think the New Thames-Clyde Express Experience (TM) should be included in one grand package - launched to coincide with the reopening of the Dumfries-Stranraer line - and the train should be run that way for the first week of the new service at a special premium price, before reverting to the regular G&SW route for the "Classic" experience.

 

[47271]

Oh ye of little faith!

Whither the true spirit of entrepreneurship?

Have Richard Branson's achievements been based on negativity and cynicism?

I think the New Thames-Clyde Express Experience (TM) should be included in one grand package - launched to coincide with the reopening of the Dumfries-Stranraer line - and the train should be run that way for the first week of the new service at a special premium price, before reverting to the regular G&SW route for the "Classic" experience.

He he, and obviously it'll get permanently sent via the fully reopened, double tracked and electrified Waverley route when that gets going in a few years time.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Oh ye of little faith!

Whither the true spirit of entrepreneurship?

Have Richard Branson's achievements been based on negativity and cynicism?

I think the New Thames-Clyde Express Experience (TM) should be included in one grand package - launched to coincide with the reopening of the Dumfries-Stranraer line - and the train should be run that way for the first week of the new service at a special premium price, before reverting to the regular G&SW route for the "Classic" experience.

With a connecting Welsh Pullman service from Carmarthen - via Aberystwyth - (RR) - possibly traversing the Cambrian Coast via the new link line from Afon Wen to Bangor.

Ought this go into the National Infrastructure Plan ?

 

[PHILIPE]

Should be operated by XC, travel via Brighton and be worked by modified 442s.

 

[Welshman]

He he, and obviously it'll get permanently sent via the fully reopened, double tracked and electrified Waverley route when that gets going in a few years time.

Come on. You're being silly now.

The electrified Waverley route will see the revived "Thames-Forth Express" which will be introduced on the back of the success of the "Thames-Clyde" six months afterwards.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

An "entrepreneur" once suggested a Glasgow - Skipton - Marylebone service at one of the Timetable Planning Conferences , with a portion for Dover Priory detached somewhere enroute.

Traction 2x37's

This might have appealed to a very select audience.

 

[route101]

I think a Glasgow to Nottingham service should be introduced . Over the Settle line . Stock would be an issue .

 

[Spartacus]

Whatever is does, it needs to avoid Leeds by using the Whitehall curve.

 

[30907]

while London to Glasgow timings would be longer, it could offer an alternative product in a similar way to how Chiltern are competing with VT and LM on services to Birmingham.

Leaving aside the range of issues others have raised, the comparison falls down.

1. Chiltern are reasonably competitive on time, the MML can't be.

2. Chiltern serve the massively developing M40 corridor, so there is significant intermediate traffic which their services cater for almost exclusively. Leeds to Carlisle hasn't anything like as much.

That said, I'd love to see a fast Settle-Carlisle service again, but it won't be an HST.

 

[PeterC]

When I look at the special section for named trains in one of my old timetables I do feel a touch of sympathy with the OP'. I am just sorry that it isn't a practical idea.

 

[ashworth]

I think a Glasgow to Nottingham service should be introduced . Over the Settle line . Stock would be an issue .

How many times has this idea come up in various threads over many years.
Sadly, I don't think it will happen.

However, since the Nottingham to Glasgow trains ceased operating, now about 30 years ago, albeit the last few yeears were via Manchester and the WCML, travel patterns have changed. There has been a huge increase in the number of people travelling by rail and the other routes from the East Midlands and Yorkshire to Glasgow are often somewhat inconvenient and very overcrowded.

The Cross Country Voyager services from Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield and Leeds are extremely overcrowded with expensive fares even for Advance tickets. Also with the roundabout route via Edinburgh it can be quite a long journey.
Travelling from Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield changing at Manchester means using overcrowded EMT and TPE services. There's already a thread about how inadequate the TPE Manchester to Scotland service is.
It used to be fairly easy to travel from Nottingham and Derby via Crewe, but connections at Crewe are often not good and the single carriage 153 between Crewe and Derby is inadequate plus the additional change at Derby from Nottingham.
Travel from Nottingham to Glasgow via Grantham is also no longer a convenient option now that East Coast no longer run through trains to Glasgow and most of the trains which call at Grantham do not even provide easy access to Edinburgh as they are the Leeds services.

Therefore, although you could say a Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield and Leeds to Glasgow service is not viable, or needed because other services, especially Cross Country are available, I wonder how many people would actually now welcome a direct, reasonably priced, comfortable not overcrowded service. Then there is the question of who would operate it and with what stock?

But no matter how many people potentially may use it, as I said earlier, it's not going to happen.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Circa 1980 , as a student we used the class 45 or 46 hauled Nottingham to Glasgow morning departure.

Fairly fast journey - but the 8 or 9 coach train of MK1's was virtually empty (this was High Summer) , and there was a notable exodus of the modest numbers on the train at Carlisle.

Even in the glory days of the pre WW1 Midlsnd Railway - the comfortable resturaunt car trains were lucky to see double figures of passengers north of Leeds , - the service was reduced and rationalised by the LMS in the 1930's in favour of the West Coast.

There was some genuine open access aspirations some years ago - along with Liverpool to Glasgow via Preston obviously, but the moment has passed.

 

[The Planner]

Wasn't it Renaissance trains that tried the Nottingham Glasgow as OA?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Wasn't it Renaissance trains that tried the Nottingham Glasgow as OA?

That's right - Mike Jones - seemed quite bullish for a while.

 

[muddythefish]

If EMT were to take the GC HSTs initially to allow PRM modifications on their existing fleet, could these additional units be used to introduce a Thames-Clyde express service between Glasgow and St. Pancras once the modification work is complete.

A twice-daily extension of an existing early morning and evening Sheffield service via Derby, Leeds, Settle & Carlisle would offer an alternative to the WCML.
While London to Glasgow timings would be longer, it could offer an alternative product in a similar way to how Chiltern are competing with VT and LM on services to Birmingham.
And offer a welcome addition for those wishing to travel from the Midlands and South Yorkshire to Scotland or an opportunity for tourist traffic wishing to experience the S&C from a London terminus.

Excellent idea. Deserves serious consideration and I've no doubt would be well patronised.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think you should make the Thames Clyde Express an all stopper north of Settte. A direct London to Dent service would be very popular with my wife and I. When is it expected to start running?