My idea for Sheffield to London to become driverless

[gerryuk]

Now that the line between Sheffield and London is about to be electrified, should this line be used as a test bed for high speed driverless trains?
The DLR is all but driverless and the tube is going down the same road, The technology is all but there,it just needs to be taken to the next level and implemented.
When the transport secretary puts out tenders for the new rolling stock, signals and track upgrades for this line, the company's that bid for these contracts should be bidding on the basis that this line has to be fully driverless when the upgrade is completed.
If anybody told us 30 years ago that driverless trains are going to be running around east London and the tube are going to implement driverless trains, we would have thought they were barking mad. Well it is happening and the obvious next step is the rail network.
Sheffield to London is about to be fully upgraded, surly it is time to think the unthinkable?
Discuss.

 

[dosxuk]

Having been on two trains in the last couple of years which have got held up while the BTP deal with trespassers along this line, and all the issues with cable theft, I'd say no. Not under any circumstances.

ATO maybe, but driverless, no chance.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Having been on two trains in the last couple of years which have got held up while the BTP deal with trespassers along this line, and all the issues with cable theft, I'd say no. Not under any circumstances.

ATO maybe, but driverless, no chance.

I agree

 

[dk1]

The time is not yet right. Give it another 15 years then i can comfortably retire on a rather large pension

 

[Michael.Y]

Is it April 1st?

Even if driverless trains were being mooted, which they won't be and I sincerely hope never will be in my lifetime, the test bed won't be a major inter-city mainline. it would be some poor provincial branch where the kinks could get ironed out long before it's let loose on the wider travelling public.

cf ERTMS on the Cambrian.

 

[route:oxford]

Having been on two trains in the last couple of years which have got held up while the BTP deal with trespassers along this line, and all the issues with cable theft, I'd say no. Not under any circumstances.

ATO maybe, but driverless, no chance.

Surely remotely managed would be even better for trespassers on the line?

Bring the services down to a managed speed to avoid congestion and halt where appropriate. Rather than human interpretation of widely spaced signals.

The only thing is. Would people in a poor state of mind find it reassuring that they would not traumatise a driver?

 

[elementalpat]

As soon as ANY driverless tech is proposed, the unions will be going bananas!

 

[GB]

Does the technology exist for use on such a line and does it exist in such a state to be able to conduct public trials?

The environment on DLR and LU is a world away from that of national rail.

 

[notadriver]

Theres a world of difference between getting on a driverless metro and a Eurostar. GB can you honestly say you'd feel safe if you knew there was no driver on your 300 kph train ? Honestly ?

 

[the sniper]

God give me strength... Is this the Rail UK silly season or something?

Are the Japanese even thinking about driverless Intercity trains yet?

EDIT

If anybody told us 30 years ago that driverless trains are going to be running around east London and the tube are going to implement driverless trains, we would have thought they were barking mad.

Considering that the DLR opened 25 years ago, and the contract to build it was issued 28 years ago, I wouldn't have thought it was that outlandish an idea 30 years ago. Plus the LU Victoria line has had automatic train operation since the late 1960's, so full automation hasn't been a million miles away for 40+ years!

 

[gerryuk]

Does the technology exist for use on such a line and does it exist in such a state to be able to conduct public trials?

The environment on DLR and LU is a world away from that of national rail.

Tube workers have been saying for years that the DLR is a totally different system to the tube and driverless trains will never happen on deep tunnel lines. Well LUL have told their drivers that any new rolling stock that is ordered will be with driverless cabs in mind.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it April 1st?

Even if driverless trains were being mooted, which they won't be and I sincerely hope never will be in my lifetime, the test bed won't be a major inter-city mainline. it would be some poor provincial branch where the kinks could get ironed out long before it's let loose on the wider travelling public.

cf ERTMS on the Cambrian.

But you can't test high speed trains on some clapped out branch line. If you want to test driverless trains running at over 120 mph you will have to test this on a main line. As the line between Sheffield and London is being totally renewed this would be the perfect line to test this technology out.
There is some leaked report on the tube (although management are now denying it) that they were going to test driverless trains on the Jubilee line at night, between Waterloo and Stratford.
They could test this technology out at night on different sections of this line. Sheffield - Derby, Derby - Leicester, Leicester - London. If they put their minds to it and have the financial commitment, this really can't be rocket science.
The technology is there, if we are going to get driverless tubes in deep level tunnels in central London its only a matter of time before the rail network goes down the same road.

 

[GB]

Theres a world of difference between getting on a driverless metro and a Eurostar. GB can you honestly say you'd feel safe if you knew there was no driver on your 300 kph train ? Honestly ?

Pretty sure that was the point I was trying to make?

...and no, I don't trust technology enough.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Theres a world of difference between getting on a driverless metro and a Eurostar. GB can you honestly say you'd feel safe if you knew there was no driver on your 300 kph train ? Honestly ?

That as well is a good point, driverless trains are ok on metro and short distance but not at speed on a long haul

 

[Drsatan]

But you can't test high speed trains on some clapped out branch line. If you want to test driverless trains running at over 120 mph you will have to test this on a main line. As the line between Sheffield and London is being totally renewed this would be the perfect line to test this technology out.
There is some leaked report on the tube (although management are now denying it) that they were going to test driverless trains on the Jubilee line at night, between Waterloo and Stratford.
They could test this technology out at night on different sections of this line. Sheffield - Derby, Derby - Leicester, Leicester - London. If they put their minds to it and have the financial commitment, this really can't be rocket science.
The technology is there, if we are going to get driverless tubes in deep level tunnels in central London its only a matter of time before the rail network goes down the same road.

Sorry, but where did you find this 'leaked report'? Do you work for LUL?

Boris Johnson's bluster about driverless trains on the tube was just that. It would be a lot more difficult to evacuate a driverless train in a tube tunnel where there is no underground walkway (the DLR differs in that all the underground sections have a walkway in case a train needs to be evacuated.) If there was no-one on board to help evacuate a train, then if a train breaks down it will be a lot more difficult to help everyone get to safety.

And as for driverless trains operating on NR metals: that will be a pipe dream. Can you imagine the furore if there were cows or trespassers on the line and the computer responsible for driving the train did not order an emergency stop? The result might be a lot of dead bodies.

Other than that, until you provide credible evidence you work for LUL or are an expert in the field of automated trains, I can't take anything you say seriously.

 

[HSTEd]

Ironically the driver is more pointless on 320kph dedicated high speed line trains than 200kph ones on normal main lines that spend significant amounts of time at lower speeds.

By the time the driver on a TGV can see a block of concrete on the track its far too late to do anything, since the speed cannot be reduced significantly before it is struck. (You can see a block of concrete maybe half a mile away? A distance which would be traversed in about ten seconds at 320kph).

Until we can ensure that the railway is a controlled environment (ie. all in tunnels with PEDs), fully driverless trains are dangerous.
ATO is probably a reasonable proposal though, assuming they get ERTMS to work properly, but the expense of maintaining the conventional signals for freight trains whos operators will never consent to pay for equipment installs will probably make it uneconomi .

 

[IanXC]

As the line between Sheffield and London is being totally renewed this would be the perfect line to test this technology out.

As I understand it the works proposed are not as comprehensive as you imply. The MML was resignalled not so long back, and with the exception of Nottingham station I don't think any resignalling is proposed.

The future of signalling on Network Rail metals will be shown on the Hertford loop, Great Western mainline and southern ECML over the next few years. ERTMS is the only game in town.

 

[notadriver]

Pretty sure that was the point I was trying to make?

...and no, I don't trust technology enough.

Well you're right technology is there but I don't think anyone wants driverless mainline trains. The point that keeps cropping up however is why train drivers are paid such high salaries (21st best paid profession in the UK) when their job is becoming more and more automated. That scares me more.

Interestingly they could have made the East London line ATO on the core route much like cross rail will be but decided against it.

 

[Michael.Y]

But you can't test high speed trains on some clapped out branch line. If you want to test driverless trains running at over 120 mph you will have to test this on a main line. As the line between Sheffield and London is being totally renewed this would be the perfect line to test this technology out.

I'm aware of that, but surely you'd test it on 40-60-75-90mph before moving up to the big leagues? ERTMS is being tested on the Cambrian by Class 158s (max speed 90mph) before it's even attempted on the GWML (max speed 125mph)

I'd rather have a human pair of eyes able to slow the train down when there's cows or persons on the line a la Fishguard than have an automatic train carry on regardless having dessicated something in its path, dragging organic detritus along with it.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I get ATO/driverless trains on a 30 mile stretch of track where the linespeed is low, the number of trains are frequent and the furthest you are from the cavalry if things go wrong is a virtual stones throw. Extending that 150+ miles to cover a half hourly service? I dont think it's cost efficient just yet.

 

[yorkie]

Now that the line between Sheffield and London is about to be electrified, should this line be used as a test bed for high speed driverless trains?

What, and not allow any other trains to run on this route? Driverless trains work well on a system where all the trains are the same, not on a mixed traffic railway.

The DLR is all but driverless and the tube is going down the same road, The technology is all but there,it just needs to be taken to the next level and implemented.

But at what cost? Go on, give a rough estimate?

It's just not feasible.

When the transport secretary puts out tenders for the new rolling stock, signals and track upgrades for this line, the company's that bid for these contracts should be bidding on the basis that this line has to be fully driverless when the upgrade is completed.

No they shouldn't.

If anybody told us 30 years ago that driverless trains are going to be running around east London and the tube are going to implement driverless trains, we would have thought they were barking mad.

Not at all. ATO has been on the Victoria Line since 1968! That's 44 years ago.

Well it is happening and the obvious next step is the rail network.
Sheffield to London is about to be fully upgraded, surly it is time to think the unthinkable?
Discuss.

No, because it is unthinkable. But when someone comes out with this in their opening post, alarm bells start ringing!

 

[Clip]

What, and not allow any other trains to run on this route? Driverless trains work well on a system where all the trains are the same, not on a mixed traffic railway.

Spot on. And given teh DLR is about 20Kilometres long its not hard for the FLRTS to get to an incident be it a non communicating train or a problem with the doors not closing.

Imagine having to station a set of techs every 20 miles on the off chance the train stops talking to control.. madness.

And thats just off the top of me head. And Tfl have not ordered trains without driver cabs at all so i think the OP miss read the story.

 

[driver_m]

I love these threads that try to put myself and my colleagues on the dole. From now on, would it be too much to ask that the proposers of these threads declare their own job? Its only fair that we have the opportunity to discuss their career path.

 

[Nonsense]

I love these threads that try to put myself and my colleagues on the dole. From now on, would it be too much to ask that the proposers of these threads declare their own job? Its only fair that we have the opportunity to discuss their career path.

I work at driver-less train factory and think its a marvelous idea...

Its funny how many posters are pro-nationalisation and value the efficient safe running of the network in the interest of its users, right up to the point where their job is somehow effected by such progress, or their favourite motive power is withdrawn and replaced with some plastic unit.

Change happens, re-skill and move on like everyone else. Don't be the one stood shouting at the tide to go back out.

Automation works in far more variable systems than a railway:

Midland_Main_Line_Sub()

If signal = Red
Then Stop

Else
Proceed to next station

End sub()

 

[notadriver]

I work at driver-less train factory and think its a marvelous idea...

Its funny how many posters are pro-nationalisation and value the efficient safe running of the network in the interest of its users, right up to the point where their job is somehow effected by such progress, or their favourite motive power is withdrawn and replaced with some plastic unit.

Change happens, re-skill and move on like everyone else. Don't be the one stood shouting at the tide to go back out.

Automation works in far more variable systems than a railway:

Midland_Main_Line_Sub()

If signal = Red
Then Stop

Else
Proceed to next station

End sub()

If they can't even install Automatic Train Protection on all of the high speed main lines (never minding the other lines with a line speed of 100 mph or less) due to expense, where's the magic money going to come to make main line trains driverless?

 

[Stephen55a1960]

If they can't even install Automatic Train Protection on all of the high speed main lines (never minding the other lines with a line speed of 100 mph or less) due to expense, where's the magic money going to come to make main line trains driverless?

Quite:roll:!

 

[HSTEd]

I work at driver-less train factory and think its a marvelous idea...

Its funny how many posters are pro-nationalisation and value the efficient safe running of the network in the interest of its users, right up to the point where their job is somehow effected by such progress, or their favourite motive power is withdrawn and replaced with some plastic unit.

Change happens, re-skill and move on like everyone else. Don't be the one stood shouting at the tide to go back out.

Automation works in far more variable systems than a railway:

Midland_Main_Line_Sub()

If signal = Red
Then Stop

Else
Proceed to next station

End sub()

So a train with 500 hundred passengers strikes an obstruction on the track at 125mph?

Eschede anyone?

Before you can even consider driverless trains you need cab signalling that works properly, and we don't even have that yet.

 

[Nonsense]

So a train with 500 hundred passengers strikes an obstruction on the track at 125mph?

Eschede anyone?

Before you can even consider driverless trains you need cab signalling that works properly, and we don't even have that yet.

I didn't realise that the Eschede accident involved a driverless unit and could have been avoided had a human driver been in post.

Please excuse my ignorance.

 

[David]

So a train with 500 hundred passengers strikes an obstruction on the track at 125mph?

Eschede anyone?

Except that train did not hit an obstruction. What happened was a wheel catastrophically failed, causing the train to derail on a set of points, and several carriages to jacknife after the broken wheel changed a set of points. It was then it hit the bridge.

 

[HSTEd]

Except that train did not hit an obstruction. What happened was a wheel catastrophically failed, causing the train to derail on a set of points, and several carriages to jacknife after the broken wheel changed a set of points. It was then it hit the bridge.

Yes... but it is an example of what happens if a train hits a heavy obstruction at very high speed, which is what caused the casualties, if it had just derailed it is probable that there would have been far fewer casualties.

 

[gerryuk]

Sorry, but where did you find this 'leaked report'? Do you work for LUL?

Boris Johnson's bluster about driverless trains on the tube was just that. It would be a lot more difficult to evacuate a driverless train in a tube tunnel where there is no underground walkway (the DLR differs in that all the underground sections have a walkway in case a train needs to be evacuated.) If there was no-one on board to help evacuate a train, then if a train breaks down it will be a lot more difficult to help everyone get to safety.

And as for driverless trains operating on NR metals: that will be a pipe dream. Can you imagine the furore if there were cows or trespassers on the line and the computer responsible for driving the train did not order an emergency stop? The result might be a lot of dead bodies.

Other than that, until you provide credible evidence you work for LUL or are an expert in the field of automated trains, I can't take anything you say seriously.

I did not find this report it seems to be a matter of record - source

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...om-october-7956006.html?origin=internalSearch