My Letter to the Prosecutions Manager, First Capital Connect

[AMT]

I am new to the site and would appreciate it if someone could help me.

I received a 'Notice of intention to prosecute' from the Prosecutions Manager at First Capital Connect. The following is my response and I would appreciate any feedback/advise:

Dear Prosecutions Manager, First Capital Connect.

On 1st August 2013 the ticket I was travelling with was indeed invalid, although certainly not through any lack of effort on my part. I was travelling with an open return ticket, at a discounted Network Railcard rate, at a time that was not applicable for the use of this discount. The reason being that I was originally planning to travel back to Letchworth on 31st July in the evening, but my stay in London was extended for personal reasons. As I had an appointment I had to attend early the next day (1st August), this resulted in my having to leave during an earlier period than I had originally planned for. However, I had acknowledged the invalidity of my ticket before boarding the train and went through great lengths to attempt to pay the difference for a valid ticket, whilst adhering to the SRA rules stated below.

I had expressed on five different occasions, to five different staff (three of which were First Capital Connect staff), my willing to pay the difference (as underlined below). I was denied this possibility on all occasions (prior to, and after boarding) and was told that it was not possible to do this. It may be the case that there isn't an option within your ticketing system to accommodate for this particular situation, but as my request was reasonable according to the SRA and National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the fault lies with First Capital Connect, not myself.

I was also not offered the option of refunding my unused invalid ticket. This hadn't actually crossed my mind at the time but if I were aware of this option then I would have happily received a refund for the discounted Network Railcard return fare and, in turn, paid the full fare for a new ticket.

Below are the aforementioned rules:

"7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a
person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published
restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail
Conditions of Carriage."
Source: SRA Penalty Fares Rules

"12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)"
Source: National Rail Conditions of Carriage

Here I would like to state that I was expected to pay the full fare. Expecting me to pay for a whole new ticket on top of what I had already paid is not only unreasonable from a customer perspective, but it is also non-compliant with the rules as stated by the SRA, so I am therefore not liable to pay anything other than the excess fare. Which, despite the inconvenience this has caused, I am still willing to pay.

I was also given no such notice as indicated below on two occasions where the opportunity presented itself. I was initially approached whilst on the train by a First Capital Connect ticket inspector, who failed to issue a written notice (I also offered to the pay the difference and was declined). Then again when I reached my destination, which was when my details were taken by the Revenue Protection Inspector at Letchworth Station, who also failed to issue a written notice despite acknowledging the first failure to issue a notice (I offered to pay the difference here and was declined again). So regardless of all of the above, which would certainly support my appeal, I am still not liable to pay anything other than the excess fare due to further non-compliance by First Capital Connect (as stated below).

"If a person wants to appeal against the penalty fare, or does not
pay the penalty fare in full immediately, the authorised
collector must give them a written notice setting out:
a the identity of the authorised collector and the name of the
train operator that he or she is acting for;
b the amount of the penalty fare and why it has been charged;
c the address to which they must send payment;
d the ways in which they can pay;
e that they must pay within 21 days of receiving the notice;
f that they can ask for a copy of these rules and a summary of
the operator’s approved penalty fares scheme by writing or
sending an e-mail to a given address or calling a given
phone number; and
g that they are entitled to appeal against the penalty fare by
sending a written statement to a given address, within 21
days of the day on which the penalty fare is charged,
explaining why they should not have to pay the penalty
fare."
Source: SRA Penalty Fares Rules

I am concerned as to why I have been contacted by the Prosecutions Manager for any reason other than to apologise for non-compliance, as my expressed willing to pay the difference was noted in the comments section of the details form completed by the RPI at Letchworth Station. Surely the Prosecutions Manager should be aware that this means I am not liable to pay a penalty? I can only speculate that FCC is so quick to hand out prosecution notices as a desperate attempt to scare customers into paying illegal penalty fares in order to compensate for the late train payout bills you have incurred. So not only are loyal customers paying extortionate rates for an abysmal service, we're also being unreasonably and unlawfully threatened with prosecution, despite all efforts to adhere to the rules. This is gross misconduct! If this is not the case then at the very least what can be said is that FCC staff are extremely incompetent. I seem to know more than they do after just 30 minutes of research.

I would like to end by mentioning that I have searched the internet to see if there have been any other customers that have experienced similar issues with First Capital Connect and I have found several other examples in which First Capital Connect have failed to comply to the SRA Penalty Fares Rules and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. So if you would like to "take this case to the Magistrates Court" I would be more than happy to oblige. Baring in mind that penalty fares are a civil, not a criminal matter.


Kind Regards... "

 

[ainsworth74]

So can I just check, you wished to purchase an excess from a railcard discounted ticket to the same ticket type but without a railcard discount?

 

[tbtc]

I'd take the bit about "paying extortionate rates for an abysmal service" out - I don't think that this helps your case.

Not saying that FCC are providing a gold plated service at a knock-down price, but there's a danger that an attack like this will spoil the attempts you make elsewhere in the letter to look reasonable.

(can't comment on the specifics as I've not had experience of FCC penalty fares0

 

[ainsworth74]

I think you might actually have been liable for the PF you recived. According to the Network Railcard T&Cs:

4) You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full Standard fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if:

a) you travel beyond the station for which your ticket is issued;

b) you travel to a destination beyond the area shown on the map in this leaflet, without having first obtained the correct ticket for your journey;

c) you travel on a route for which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.

My bold, now I'm happy to be corrected but by my reading if you travel with a discounted ticket when it isn't valid (before 1000 in this case) then you should get a PF and that should be the difference between the ticket you held and either £20 or twice the apropriate ticket for your journey.

That's my reading in any case.

 

[AMT]

So can I just check, you wished to purchase an excess from a railcard discounted ticket to the same ticket type but without a railcard discount?

I wanted to pay the difference between the cost of the Network Railcard discounted fare and the full fare. Which according to the Conditions of Carriage is all i'm liable to pay. But I was told it wasn't possible by several people.

I even asked the RPI at Letchworth to write down in the comments section of my details form that I had expressed a willing to pay, just as a safeguard so it didn't turn into a "my word against theirs" situation. I saw her write it down so I'm not sure why I've received a letter.

It look me a while to look into this myself and I'm not really experienced but I'm pretty sure that my appeal is sound based on the research I've done. I guess I'm just doubting myself because so many railway staff members were saying the same thing.

Have they been trained with the wrong information or am I misreading something?

Many thanks for your help, it's much appreciated!

 

[bb21]

Your tone is not conducive to a positive outcome.

With regard to Condition 12 of the NRCoC, this is supposed to be applicable in situations where a time restriction makes the ticket invalid. I don't know how a court would view your situation as I would say that your ticket is not valid because of an ineligible discount, however I can see your point in referring to Condition 12.

With regard to the excess, you are not automatically entitled to an excess from Railcard-discounted fares to the full fare. Although I have heard of cases where this is done, I don't believe there is formal provision for it under the excess fare procedures. Officially you should refund your original ticket, and purchase a new one.

As to the refund value of your ticket, I suspect that it would be less than £10, so taking into account the admin fee, you will get nothing. (Of course you might get something as I don't know what ticket you bought, but this is unlikely if it is for a short-medium distance journey on FCC.)

 

[AMT]

I think you might actually have been liable for the PF you recived. According to the Network Railcard T&Cs:



My bold, now I'm happy to be corrected but by my reading if you travel with a discounted ticket when it isn't valid (before 1000 in this case) then you should get a PF and that should be the difference between the ticket you held and either £20 or twice the apropriate ticket for your journey.

That's my reading in any case.

As far as I'm aware the T&Cs of the Network Railcard should be compliant with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the SRA Penalty Fares Rules. If they're not then I don't really understand the inconsistency.

It's all very confusing!

 

[ainsworth74]

It's all very confusing!

I quite agree!! Thankfully we do have some very knowledgeable people floating around so I'm sure they'll turn up before too long

 

[bb21]

It's all very confusing!

Not quite imo.

The key issue seems to stem from the fact that you assumed you were eligible for an excess, which I believe was incorrect.

You may have a point w.r.t. the applicability of Condition 12 in your situation. Nevertheless I would not be confident at all about mounting a challenge on this basis. Whether a court would agree with your interpretation is something we will only be able to find out when it delivers its verdict.

 

[Deerfold]

Not quite imo.

The key issue seems to stem from the fact that you assumed you were eligible for an excess, which I believe was incorrect.

You may have a point w.r.t. the applicability of Condition 12 in your situation. Nevertheless I would not be confident at all about mounting a challenge on this basis. Whether a court would agree with your interpretation is something we will only be able to find out when it delivers its verdict.

If the OP was not eligible for an excess it may be pertinent exactly what they were told by the staff they asked for one - were they told they'd need a new ticket?

 

[bb21]

If the OP was not eligible for an excess it may be pertinent exactly what they were told by the staff they asked for one - were they told they'd need a new ticket?

Absolutely. I am unable to comment further in that respect until more details are provided as to exactly what was said.

 

[AMT]

Your tone is not conducive to a positive outcome.

With regard to Condition 12 of the NRCoC, this is supposed to be applicable in situations where a time restriction makes the ticket invalid. I don't know how a court would view your situation as I would say that your ticket is not valid because of an ineligible discount, however I can see your point in referring to Condition 12.

Thank you for your response! It does say "including those bought with a Railcard", so surely that covers it?

 

[bb21]

Thank you for your response! It does say "including those bought with a Railcard", so surely that covers it?

I believe this clause was supposed to mean that the same condition on time restrictions (e.g. travelling on an Off-Peak ticket at a barred time, which is what Condition 12 is all about) applies to tickets bought with or without a Railcard.

But I quite agree that it could be interpreted in a different way. I would quite like to see a challenge being mounted to clarify matters, but I am always mindful of potential pitfalls if the court sides with the TOC's interpretation.

 

[Haywain]

It would be helpful to know exactly what tickets and journey were involved, as there is rarely any point in having a Network Railcard discount on an Anytime Return. I wonder if the ticket was an Off Peak Return and travel was at a time when that ticket wasn't valid, and a penalty fare was applied because there is no Anytime Return fare, and therefore no excess payable?

 

[bb21]

Another thing to bear in mind is that in my opinion Condition 4 provides the framework for a Penalty Fare to be charged in your circumstance as it contains a reference to Condition 12.

4. Penalty Fares

Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains.
Warning notices are clearly displayed where Penalty Fares apply.

You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
(a) you travel in a train without a ticket or Permit to Travel; or
(b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid; or
(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;
or
(d) you are present in a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket or Permit to Travel.

...

Condition 12 states,

12. Restrictions on when you can travel

Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

...

If you purchase an Advance ticket, you must use that ticket in the train specified when you book your ticket. However, if you miss this service because a previous connecting train service was delayed you will be able to travel on the next service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked to travel without penalty.

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare.

and in the Network Railcard Terms and Conditions,

4) You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full Standard fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if:
a) you travel beyond the station for which your ticket is issued;
b) you travel to a destination beyond the area shown on the map in this leaflet, without having first obtained the correct ticket for your journey;
c) you travel on a route for which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.

Does Condition 4(c) of the Network Railcard Terms and Conditions satisfy the condition set out in NRCoC Condition 12(b)? My opinion is that it does, and if this is correct, then you are liable for a Penalty Fare.

The only specific circumstance mentioned in Condition 12 which falls under the provision of Condition 12(a) is where one travels at a barred time due to the fare type and not a discount.

It would be helpful to know exactly what tickets and journey were involved, as there is rarely any point in having a Network Railcard discount on an Anytime Return. I wonder if the ticket was an Off Peak Return and travel was at a time when that ticket wasn't valid, and a penalty fare was applied because there is no Anytime Return fare, and therefore no excess payable?

Yes. I agree that it would be useful to have this information.

 

[AMT]

Thank you all for your help so far, definitely got some thinking to do, it was worth coming on here.

I'm at work at the moment so i will respond with further information later.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK, well basically what happened was on the Saturday morning I had paid for an off-peak, return ticket with my Network Railcard discount. I was originally planning to return home on Sunday, which means the return ticket would have been valid. But instead I ended up staying an extra night and had to leave earlier than 10 on Monday morning because of an appointment. So my off-peak return wasn't valid. I knew this was the case before I even boarded the train and I made an effort to pay the difference because I didn't think it was fair that I had to pay the full fare, considering that I was holding an unused ticket that I had paid money for.

I think what I've taken from the feedback you guys have kindly offered (much appreciated) is that I definitely need to tone down my letter. I also think I need to probably focus mostly on the fact that

a) I wasn't given a notice (I have seen someone get off just because certain information was missing from their notice, let alone not being given one altogether)

b) not once was having a refund for the unused, invalid ticket offered to me as an option. I was just told the only option was to buy a new ticket.

I think if I go with those 2 points alone and cross my fingers they should hopefully wave the penalty and just ask for the price of the standard fare for that journey.


I have to say I do think it's unfair that it depends on what station/train you get on as to whether or not you're liable to pay a penalty. It should be consistent. But, I have no control over that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here is my revised letter. Again any feedback would be much appreciated. I think it's much better now I've calmed down.

Dear Prosecutions Manager, First Capital Connect.

I hope this letter finds you well and I appreciate having the opportunity to explain the incident from my perspective.

On 1st August 2013 the ticket I was travelling with was indeed invalid, although certainly not through any lack of effort on my part. I was travelling with an open return ticket, at a discounted Network Railcard rate, at a time that was not applicable for the use of this discount. The reason being that I was originally planning to travel back to Letchworth on 31st July in the evening, but my stay in London was extended for personal reasons. As I had an appointment I had to attend early the next day (1st August), this resulted in my having to leave during an earlier period than I had originally planned for. However, I had acknowledged the invalidity of my ticket before boarding the train and went through great lengths to attempt to pay the difference for a valid ticket.

I had expressed on five different occasions, to five different staff (three of which were First Capital Connect staff) my willing to pay the difference. I was denied this possibility on all occasions, prior to and after boarding, and was told that it was not possible to do this. It may be the case that there isn't an option within your ticketing system to accommodate for this particular situation, or some other reason, but I was also not offered the option of refunding my unused invalid ticket. This hadn't actually crossed my mind at the time but if I were aware of this option then I would have happily received a refund for the discounted Network Railcard return fare and, in turn, paid the full fare for a new ticket.

Here I would like to state that I was expected to pay the full fare. Expecting me to pay for a whole new ticket on top of what I had already paid is unreasonable from a customer perspective. I was also given no such notice as indicated below on two occasions where the opportunity presented itself. I was initially approached whilst on the train by a First Capital Connect ticket inspector, who failed to issue a written notice (I also offered to the pay the difference and was declined). Then again when I reached my destination, which was when my details were taken by the Revenue Protection Inspector at Letchworth Station, who also failed to issue a written notice, despite acknowledging the first failure to issue a notice (I offered to pay the difference here and was declined again). My understanding is that I am not liable to pay a penalty fare due to non-compliance.

"If a person wants to appeal against the penalty fare, or does not
pay the penalty fare in full immediately, the authorised
collector must give them a written notice setting out:
a the identity of the authorised collector and the name of the
train operator that he or she is acting for;
b the amount of the penalty fare and why it has been charged;
c the address to which they must send payment;
d the ways in which they can pay;
e that they must pay within 21 days of receiving the notice;
f that they can ask for a copy of these rules and a summary of
the operator’s approved penalty fares scheme by writing or
sending an e-mail to a given address or calling a given
phone number; and
g that they are entitled to appeal against the penalty fare by
sending a written statement to a given address, within 21
days of the day on which the penalty fare is charged,
explaining why they should not have to pay the penalty
fare."
Source: SRA Penalty Fares Rules

I have looked at the SRA Penalty Fares Rules and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to look for any additional rulings that may support my appeal and I am a bit unclear with regards to whether or not the following applies to this situation (it's all very confusing):

"7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a
person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published
restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail
Conditions of Carriage."
Source: SRA Penalty Fares Rules

"12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in
addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times
when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will
be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the
ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)"
Source: National Rail Conditions of Carriage

My expressed willing to pay the difference was noted in the comments section of the details form completed by the RPI at Letchworth Station, so as to avoid a "my word against theirs" situation. I did see her write it down, so hopefully that has some weight to it.

I look forward to your response.


Kind Regards,

 

[Haywain]

We're still guessing the price of the ticket you held, but you will be entitled to a refund, but an admin fee of (almost certainly) £10 will be deducted. I suspect that this is why no-one mentioned a refund - because there wouldn't be one. Sticking with my guess, there was no Anytime Return ticket available which is why you needed to buy a new ticket. And the reason you received a prosecution letter is because you refused to accept the penalty fare. That's what I read into the information you've given.

And, by the way, you were willing to pay, you expressed willlingness. Just saying.

 

[tony6499]

There isn't a refund due or an excess available at the time, if you travel before 1000 on a NSE railcard discounted ticket then the fare is a full single for whichever journey you are making

 

[Darandio]

But instead I ended up staying an extra night and had to leave earlier than 10 on Monday morning because of an appointment. So my off-peak return wasn't valid. I knew this was the case before I even boarded the train and I made an effort to pay the difference because I didn't think it was fair that I had to pay the full fare, considering that I was holding an unused ticket that I had paid money for.

Isn't this the key point here?

Someone more in the know will confirm it, but you cannot just 'trade in' an unused return against a new ticket can you? Especially considering you wanted to travel on a different day than the ticket was valid?

 

[jon0844]

I'd perhaps rewrite the letter to say you've subsequently discovered that you were wrong, having misunderstood the rules and emphasising that you did try hard to do the right thing, even before travelling.

On that basis, you now release you should have bought a new ticket and accepted the penalty fare, and see if they'll settle for that (perhaps include a cheque for the right amount, either £20 or twice the correct fare) and drop the case. You don't want them offering an out of court settlement for £100+

The notes taken on the day will confirm your misunderstanding, which is probably a good thing. They may well show leniency if you're polite and apologetic.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Isn't this the key point here?

Someone more in the know will confirm it, but you cannot just 'trade in' an unused return against a new ticket can you? Especially considering you wanted to travel on a different day than the ticket was valid?

Indeed.
The existence of a paid-for, but inappropriate ticket, is of no consequence - that ticket has no value.

When I've been in the same situation myself, it has been a disapointment and seemed unfortunate, but, and unless there is the potential for one of the specific instances in which 'an Excess fare' can be sold, a passenger holding a ticket which is not valid for travel is actually travelling "without having paid their fare".

A Railcard discounted ticket can be exchanged for an undiscounted ticket and would normally incur an 'admin' fee in the process. Similarly, an off-peak ticket can be 'Excessed' to a more flexible ticket. To apply both of these changes might not be economically attractive.

 

[island]

AMT, you make a lot of references to penalty fares, but you don't seem to have been issued one. You are being considered for prosecution for the criminal offence you committed when you entered a rail vehicle for the purpose of travel without holding a valid ticket, contrary to the Railway Byelaws. There is no requirement that an authorised person in these circumstances offer you the chance to pay an excess fare, or issue you with any paperwork.

Your ticket almost certainly had no refund value, as you would only be entitled to the difference between an off-peak return and an off-peak single, having used the outbound segment, less an admin fee of £10. Virtually no FCC off-peak return ticket costs over £10 more than the corresponding single, especially not with a NSE discount.

An excess from a railcard-discounted ticket to an undiscounted ticket is not supposed to be issued. Some clerks have been known to issue them, but it is rare.

As above I suggest rewording your letter to indicate you now understand you were in the wrong and offering the value of the penalty fare (i.e. double the full single fare or £20, whichever is greater) and enclosing a cheque.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The issue here appears to be twofold:

1) Assuming the ticket held was the Return portion of an Off-Peak Return between Letchworth and London Terminals, this carries restriction code 5J and is not valid on any train scheduled to depart before 0930 Mondays to Fridays (excluding public holidays) with a few exceptions, none of which apply here.

2) Tickets discounted with a Network Railcard are not valid before 1000 Mondays to Fridays (excluding public holidays), with various exceptions, though again none apply in this case.

If the OP was travelling between 0930 and 1000 (which, on a normal day, basically means getting the 0952 from Moorgate or 0953 from Kings Cross), The Manual says that they should be charged the difference between the discounted and undiscounted fares.

If the OP was travelling prior to 0930, a new Single ticket would need to be purchased at the earliest opportunity, as there isn't an Anytime Return that the original ticket could be excessed to.

 

[AMT]

We're still guessing the price of the ticket you held, but you will be entitled to a refund, but an admin fee of (almost certainly) £10 will be deducted. I suspect that this is why no-one mentioned a refund - because there wouldn't be one. Sticking with my guess, there was no Anytime Return ticket available which is why you needed to buy a new ticket. And the reason you received a prosecution letter is because you refused to accept the penalty fare. That's what I read into the information you've given.

And, by the way, you were willing to pay, you expressed willlingness. Just saying.

I don't know exactly how much the ticket worked out at because it just gives you the cost for the whole journey (there and back) on both tickets. Reasonably it would be half of that, which was definitely less than £10. The difference of the discount was obviously a 3rd of the cost, so we're talking about a couple of quid here.

I expressed a willing to pay the difference, not the penalty fare.

but you cannot just 'trade in' an unused return against a new ticket can you? Especially considering you wanted to travel on a different day than the ticket was valid?

Well i don't know, that's why i'm here. It wasn't as straight forward as me just wanting to swap it for a full fare ticket. i wanted to somehow exchange the ticket I had, as well as paying the difference on top of that. but i think the issue now (if i understand correctly) is that there wasn't really a specific cost for just that part of the journey. because it was part of a two part journey. my point is that i paid more for a two part journey than i would have paid for a single, so money has still been exchanged.

also, the ticket was valid on that day. it was an open return. it just wasn't valid at that time of day.

On that basis, you now release you should have bought a new ticket and accepted the penalty fare, and see if they'll settle for that (perhaps include a cheque for the right amount, either £20 or twice the correct fare) and drop the case. You don't want them offering an out of court settlement for £100+

well, they can't give me a penalty now because they didn't give me a notice. without that they aren't complying with the rules of carriage. as i said, i've seen an example where someone got off because their notice was missing certain information, this is more non-compliant than that.

The existence of a paid-for, but inappropriate ticket, is of no consequence - that ticket has no value.

How do you figure that? it did have value because i could have used it to travel later in that day if i didn't have to leave earlier. i still paid for it and it was still valid as far as the date is concerned. also, if i wasn't in an area that was a penalty zone then i would have only been liable to pay the excess. so to say that it had "no value" isn't really true. if that was the case then you wouldn't be able to pay an excess in ANY location.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

AMT, you make a lot of references to penalty fares, but you don't seem to have been issued one. You are being considered for prosecution for the criminal offence you committed when you entered a rail vehicle for the purpose of travel without holding a valid ticket, contrary to the Railway Byelaws. There is no requirement that an authorised person in these circumstances offer you the chance to pay an excess fare, or issue you with any paperwork.

Your ticket almost certainly had no refund value, as you would only be entitled to the difference between an off-peak return and an off-peak single, having used the outbound segment, less an admin fee of £10. Virtually no FCC off-peak return ticket costs over £10 more than the corresponding single, especially not with a NSE discount.

An excess from a railcard-discounted ticket to an undiscounted ticket is not supposed to be issued. Some clerks have been known to issue them, but it is rare.

As above I suggest rewording your letter to indicate you now understand you were in the wrong and offering the value of the penalty fare (i.e. double the full single fare or £20, whichever is greater) and enclosing a cheque.

It's not a criminal offence, it's a civil offence by definition. there is a requirement that they issue you with paperwork when they give you a penalty, which i was given when i refused to pay the full fare. its in the SRA rules.

i'm not allowed to send them any money apparently. not yet anyway.

 

[34D]

as there isn't an Anytime Return that the original ticket could be excessed to.

Cost of two singles?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't know exactly how much the ticket worked out at because it just gives you the cost for the whole journey (there and back) on both tickets. Reasonably it would be half of that, which was definitely less than £10. The difference of the discount was obviously a 3rd of the cost, so we're talking about a couple of quid here.

I expressed a willing to pay the difference, not the penalty fare.



Well i don't know, that's why i'm here. It wasn't as straight forward as me just wanting to swap it for a full fare ticket. i wanted to somehow exchange the ticket I had, as well as paying the difference on top of that. but i think the issue now (if i understand correctly) is that there wasn't really a specific cost for just that part of the journey. because it was part of a two part journey. my point is that i paid more for a two part journey than i would have paid for a single, so money has still been exchanged.

also, the ticket was valid on that day. it was an open return. it just wasn't valid at that time of day.



well, they can't give me a penalty now because they didn't give me a notice. without that they aren't complying with the rules of carriage. as i said, i've seen an example where someone got off because their notice was missing certain information, this is more non-compliant than that.



How do you figure that? it did have value because i could have used it to travel later in that day if i didn't have to leave earlier. i still paid for it and it was still valid as far as the date is concerned. also, if i wasn't in an area that was a penalty zone then i would have only been liable to pay the excess. so to say that it had "no value" isn't really true. if that was the case then you wouldn't be able to pay an excess in ANY location.
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It's not a criminal offence, it's a civil offence by definition. there is a requirement that they issue you with paperwork when they give you a penalty, which i was given when i refused to pay the full fare. its in the SRA rules.

i'm not allowed to send them any money apparently. not yet anyway.

No. By refusing the PF, this has stopped being a civil matter, and is now a breech of section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Upon conviction, you get a criminal record, a fine of upto £1,000 and/or three months imprisonment.

FCC may settle out of court for a few hundred pounds.

 

[bb21]

I don't know exactly how much the ticket worked out at because it just gives you the cost for the whole journey (there and back) on both tickets. Reasonably it would be half of that, which was definitely less than £10. The difference of the discount was obviously a 3rd of the cost, so we're talking about a couple of quid here.

The difference, ie. the refund value, would be the difference between the fare you paid, and the appropriate single fare you would have been required to pay for your outward journey. It is almost never half of the return fare unless it is a long-distance Anytime Return. Usually with off-peak tickets, this is no more than £1. Without knowing what ticket you held, I cannot say for sure what the refund value would be. Don't forget that you need to deduct £10 admin fee to arrive at the figure for money in hand.

I expressed a willing to pay the difference, not the penalty fare.

The problem is that it is not your choice any more, and as some people have already pointed out, there may not even be a difference in fare that you can pay.

Well i don't know, that's why i'm here. It wasn't as straight forward as me just wanting to swap it for a full fare ticket. i wanted to somehow exchange the ticket I had, as well as paying the difference on top of that. but i think the issue now (if i understand correctly) is that there wasn't really a specific cost for just that part of the journey. because it was part of a two part journey. my point is that i paid more for a two part journey than i would have paid for a single, so money has still been exchanged.

The specific cost for the return leg of your journey can be calculated, easily. There may be refund value for your ticket, but you may well not get anything in actual fact due to the admin fee. An "exchange" refunding the unused return portion and selling you a new ticket may well leave you no better off financially than just buying a new ticket. Again I cannot comment any more specifically without knowing which ticket you held.

well, they can't give me a penalty now because they didn't give me a notice. without that they aren't complying with the rules of carriage. as i said, i've seen an example where someone got off because their notice was missing certain information, this is more non-compliant than that.

No. They won't be giving you a Penalty Fare any more. If things get really bad, they will prosecute instead. You can never rely on being able to get off on a technicality - way too risky.

As for not complying with the NRCoC. I have explained my understanding of the situation and my conclusion, unfortunately, is that they have complied with the NRCoC.

How do you figure that? it did have value because i could have used it to travel later in that day if i didn't have to leave earlier. i still paid for it and it was still valid as far as the date is concerned. also, if i wasn't in an area that was a penalty zone then i would have only been liable to pay the excess. so to say that it had "no value" isn't really true. if that was the case then you wouldn't be able to pay an excess in ANY location.

As I have already explained, there may not be an excess payable, in which case in a non-Penalty Fare area, you would be liable for a brand new full fare ticket.

Whether it is valid for later in the day is not relevant. You can keep it for travel later that day if you wish, if you purchased another ticket for the earlier journey you made. It is not valid at the time you travelled, and that is what matters in your case.

It's not a criminal offence, it's a civil offence by definition. there is a requirement that they issue you with paperwork when they give you a penalty, which i was given when i refused to pay the full fare. its in the SRA rules.

Unfortunately as far as the Byelaws are concerned, island is correct. Not being able to present a valid ticket on demand is indeed a criminal offence, provided that you were given an opportunity to purchase the correct ticket before boarding. I don't know whether the ticket office at your origin was open when you travelled. If it were, then Byelaw 18 would be in force.

 

[AMT]

No. By refusing the PF, this has stopped being a civil matter, and is now a breech of section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Upon conviction, you get a criminal record, a fine of upto £1,000 and/or three months imprisonment.

FCC may settle out of court for a few hundred pounds.

penalty fares are a civil matter, not a criminal one. paid or not.

in order for them to issue a penalty fare i should have been given the notice, which i wasn't. surely it's irrelevant if it doesn't comply with the SRA rules.

 

[34D]

penalty fares are a civil matter, not a criminal one. paid or not.

in order for them to issue a penalty fare i should have been given the notice, which i wasn't. surely it's irrelevant if it doesn't comply with the SRA rules.

Oh my goodness. Please read the whole thread (and the FAQ) again.

The PF was offered to you. You declined. Hence no paperwork prepared. It won't be offered again. Best real world example I can give is if you don't pay your 30p for parking, the council require you to pay £60 and the 30p is no longer available.

People on here are trying to help you avoid a criminal record.

Please re-read

 

[CyrusWuff]

Cost of two singles?

That would be the answer in the good old days, but I'm fairly certain that Avantix won't let you "create" such a ticket, though I believe Tribute and Shere SMART (at least) will.

It's not mentioned anywhere obvious in The Manual either, whereas ISTR that it used to appear in the paper NFMs.

Assuming, once again, the journey was Letchworth - London Terminals, and the outward journey wasn't at a time when the Super Off-Peak was valid, the OP originally paid £18.90 for a discounted Off-Peak Return, but should have paid £13.00 for the outward journey and £14.90 for the return, for a total of £27.90.

No refund would be due on the unused Return portion of the original ticket as the difference between the discounted fares is £5.90, and FCC apply a £10 Admin Fee for Refunds.

 

[AMT]

OK. i think i need to just give this a break for now because i'm finding it quite stressful and confusing. i tend to get a bit stubborn when i'm stressed.

thank you all for your help. i really do appreciate it. i just wish things were simpler. i use the train almost everyday and i always buy tickets, i'm not the sort of person to purposefully try to avoid paying. it just didn't seem fair to me at the time.