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My suggestion for Season tickets to not be sold for travel on HS2

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edwin_m

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It's likely that decarbonization of the economy will involve some shift from road to rail. Because road travel is so dominant, even a small shift will greatly increase rail passenger numbers very significantly, and there isn't the capacity in most existing routes to handle this.

In my view the extra capacity provided by HS2 should not be used to facilitate daily commuting, which would tend to attract more employment to London and make the cities of the north more like dormitory towns. It should reduce the very expensive anytime tickets which are important for business people to visit colleagues/clients/suppliers in other cities and therefore help those businesses based outside London to prosper. To do this I'd make season tickets invalid on HS2.
 
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JonathanH

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To do this I'd make season tickets invalid on HS2.

I can buy that argument with London but what about between Birmingham and points north of there? [Of course, season tickets might have been withdrawn everywhere in favour of stored value ticketing or caps by the time we get HS2 opened.]
 

edwin_m

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I can buy that argument with London but what about between Birmingham and points north of there? [Of course, season tickets might have been withdrawn everywhere in favour of stored value ticketing or caps by the time we get HS2 opened.]
Not sure what you'd do about commuting from Birmingham Interchange - probably not a great idea to encourage drive-up catchment for such a short journey, or filling up of longer-distance trains that should be carrying longer-distance passengers, when HS2 frees capacity on the existing route that could be used instead. This specific question would have to depend on demand projections and local policy.

However for everywhere else the same principle applies. People shouldn't be encouraged to commute to Birmingham from Crewe or even further away. Some will do it but I don't think they should be subsidised to do so. If a company has a key worker who really can't move closer then there would probably be a work-from-home solution visiting the office weekly or less.
 

Class 170101

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In my view the extra capacity provided by HS2 should not be used to facilitate daily commuting, which would tend to attract more employment to London and make the cities of the north more like dormitory towns. It should reduce the very expensive anytime tickets which are important for business people to visit colleagues/clients/suppliers in other cities and therefore help those businesses based outside London to prosper. To do this I'd make season tickets invalid on HS2.

I'm afraid I disagree with you on season tickets. To allow someone from Manchester to traverl on HS2 using a season ticket is their choice but if you don't allow it then it means they will travel on WCML services which will have to remain as they are today (people won't accept less than what they have) thereby not releasing capacity for extra suburban services from the Trent Valley and Birmingham southwards to London but also from Stoke, North, to Manchester and from Rugby and Wolverhamptons direction towards Birmingham.
 

HSTEd

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In my view the extra capacity provided by HS2 should not be used to facilitate daily commuting, which would tend to attract more employment to London and make the cities of the north more like dormitory towns. It should reduce the very expensive anytime tickets which are important for business people to visit colleagues/clients/suppliers in other cities and therefore help those businesses based outside London to prosper. To do this I'd make season tickets invalid on HS2.

Do you have another source of income as large and easy to access as commuting?
HS2's capacity is so enormous that it is extremely unlkely that commuting will impact anyone else's ability to use the service - at which point restraining commuting is simply social engineering in an attempt to freeze society in aspic.

Indeed commuters are likely to reduce everyone else's prices because the marginal cost of providing seats is drastically lower than the cost of providing a baseload of seats.
 

HSTEd

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I suspect season tickets indeed won't be available on HS2, and it will be fully dynamically priced and reservations compulsory, more like Eurostar.
All compulsory reservations achieve is prevent you from filling your trains to the gills.
You gain very little from doing it.

There is a reason noone has really done it in the UK in decades of privatisation.

There will also be a political driver that the service be full and be seen to be full rapidly on opening to ensure it is seen as a success.

As a result anything that might reduce custom is going to look very bad on the political side.
 
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PeterC

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There was an article in The Times some time ago that suggested that HS2 would be seated only so presumably with some form of reservation or boarding card system. I posted a link in a previous discussion on the topic.
 

Ianno87

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I can buy that argument with London but what about between Birmingham and points north of there? [Of course, season tickets might have been withdrawn everywhere in favour of stored value ticketing or caps by the time we get HS2 opened.]

I could see East Midlands Hub to Birmingham Curzon Street in about 20 minutes or so a very, very attractive daily commute.


There was an article in The Times some time ago that suggested that HS2 would be seated only so presumably with some form of reservation or boarding card system. I posted a link in a previous discussion on the topic.

I'd wager some sort of Phone App to select a train/seat when travelling with a walk up ticket.
 

swt_passenger

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There was an article in The Times some time ago that suggested that HS2 would be seated only so presumably with some form of reservation or boarding card system. I posted a link in a previous discussion on the topic.
There’s also never been any official evidence that HS2 would be seated only, or booked train only, no matter how often it’s been posted.

I suspect people are confused between it and HS1, the latter having obvious additional security and border control issues.
 

edwin_m

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I'm afraid I disagree with you on season tickets. To allow someone from Manchester to traverl on HS2 using a season ticket is their choice but if you don't allow it then it means they will travel on WCML services which will have to remain as they are today (people won't accept less than what they have) thereby not releasing capacity for extra suburban services from the Trent Valley and Birmingham southwards to London but also from Stoke, North, to Manchester and from Rugby and Wolverhamptons direction towards Birmingham.
Between Manchester and Birmingham currently there will be a few people travelling end to end on season tickets, plus quite a lot more end to end on non-season tickets, plus those using the service to/from/between intermediate stations on whatever type of ticket.

HS2 will take the second group off the existing route. That, plus scope for train lengthening, would create extra space for the intermediate journeys, whether commuting or otherwise. Existing season ticket holders will still have a similar service at a similar price.

But if season tickets are allowed on HS2 you immediately create a strong incentive for commuting, particularly from the Manchester Airport and Crewe stations where access will overwhelmingly be drive-up. Similarly with East Midlands Hub. I don't think that's the sort of thing we should be encouraging. It's not freezing society in aspic, it's an attempt to prevent changes that would be damaging to sustainability and encourage instead a pattern of development that strengthens the economies of the North and Midlands.
There’s also never been any official evidence that HS2 would be seated only, or booked train only, no matter how often it’s been posted.

I suspect people are confused between it and HS1, the latter having obvious additional security and border control issues.
Southeastern High Speed doesn't even have reservations.
 

HSTEd

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HS2 will take the second group off the existing route. That, plus scope for train lengthening, would create extra space for the intermediate journeys, whether commuting or otherwise. Existing season ticket holders will still have a similar service at a similar price.
Providing capacity for these people on the existing route likely costs more than doing so on HS2.
This costs the taxpayer money.

Especially in some cases it will prevent respeccing of the intermediate service into a more economical-to-operate form.

But if season tickets are allowed on HS2 you immediately create a strong incentive for commuting, particularly from the Manchester Airport and Crewe stations where access will overwhelmingly be drive-up. Similarly with East Midlands Hub. I don't think that's the sort of thing we should be encouraging. It's not freezing society in aspic, it's an attempt to prevent changes that would be damaging to sustainability and encourage instead a pattern of development that strengthens the economies of the North and Midlands.

It's highly unlikely to strengthen the economies of the North and Midlands.
What is likely to happen is those high paid people will simply move to the London area and put up with the higher cost of living.

As to drive up access...... if society doesn't want drive up access to be dominant you should simply provide other choices.

It would cost peanuts to develop suitable public transport options at Toton and the Airport, and indeed I doubt your assertion that access would be overwhelmingly drive up at those stations.
 
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Ianno87

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Southeastern HS is a totally different market, and is a lot more like the Class 350s that stop at Leighton Buzzard then move over to the fasts to Euston. HS2 will be a pure InterCity product.

The Javelins are also effectively High Speed "Southern Region" services, where the nature of the market is that "Reservations" have never been the done thing.

HS2 is (initially) replacing the current Pendolino services, where reservations and tiers of Advance fares are normal.

I still maintain that HS2 can still act as a walk-up railway, with phone apps etc allocating and directing passengers to available seats as they arrive at the station. (With paper reservations still availabke for those who request them)
 

Hadders

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Why do we need to make travel on HS2 so complicated?

Why shouldn't it operate in the same way as the current Avanti Pendolino service, i.e. Any Permitted tickets valid on a walk on basis (subject to time restrictions etc). It'll have more in common with an outer suburban service rather than inter-city anyway, given journey length.

If a premium must be charged for HS2 then rename the current 'Any Permitted' fares as 'not via HS2' and increase the price of the 'Any Permitted' fare.

Simples.
 

JonathanH

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This is all very 'purist'. While I recognise that it is not desirable for the ease of travelling to London to cause a 'braindrain' from the West Midlands or further afield, the whole point of building HS2 is to move demand off the routes where the fast services currently run. They have even ensured that the same operator provides the legacy 'fast' service on the WCML and the service on HS2.

If HS2 fares are out of line or different from those on the existing routes, people will see HS2 as something which is not for them and that will not move the demand from the existing routes which is what is needed. All you end up with is people saying "they have taken away our perfectly good service to London and made it slower forcing us to use HS2 against our will". People commute from Birmingham to London already.

As noted in this thread, people simply need to see HS2 simply as the extra fast lines on the WCML (and later MML and ECML) that happen not to be built alongside for well established reasons and not as something different.
 

paul1609

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Southeastern HS is a totally different market, and is a lot more like the Class 350s that stop at Leighton Buzzard then move over to the fasts to Euston. HS2 will be a pure InterCity product.
Thats not really true. Southeastern HS is Kents "Intercity" service even when the Javelin service leaves HS1 it only calls at principal stations. The St Pancras to Ramsgate via Ashford service averages over 70 mph end to end to do the 90 mile journey in 1 hour 17 in the clock face timetable with peaks down to 1h 10.
Thats performance on a par with most of the Avanti's West Midland 'Intercity' rather than any slow line WCML services.
Once London to Birmingham goes over to HS2 it won't have catering and probably first class as the journey time will be too short.
 

Class 170101

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This is all very 'purist'. While I recognise that it is not desirable for the ease of travelling to London to cause a 'braindrain' from the West Midlands or further afield, the whole point of building HS2 is to move demand off the routes where the fast services currently run. They have even ensured that the same operator provides the legacy 'fast' service on the WCML and the service on HS2.

If HS2 fares are out of line or different from those on the existing routes, people will see HS2 as something which is not for them and that will not move the demand from the existing routes which is what is needed. All you end up with is people saying "they have taken away our perfectly good service to London and made it slower forcing us to use HS2 against our will". People commute from Birmingham to London already.

As noted in this thread, people simply need to see HS2 simply as the extra fast lines on the WCML (and later MML and ECML) that happen not to be built alongside for well established reasons and not as something different.

I think its almost a given that fares via HS2 will be higher than current WCML fares despite what the current government says, it does not tie the hands of the next. services on classic lines in Kent to London were slowed down, and this is from those that used them, to make HS1 services more attractive and it also has HS1 specific fares. The same will happen for HS2.

Thats not really true. Southeastern HS is Kents "Intercity" service even when the Javelin service leaves HS1 it only calls at principal stations. The St Pancras to Ramsgate via Ashford service averages over 70 mph end to end to do the 90 mile journey in 1 hour 17 in the clock face timetable with peaks down to 1h 10.
Thats performance on a par with most of the Avanti's West Midland 'Intercity' rather than any slow line WCML services.
Once London to Birmingham goes over to HS2 it won't have catering and probably first class as the journey time will be too short.

I still think you will have some catering between Birmingham and London and Crewe to London via WCML as not all the intermediate stations will be 'served' by HS2 but will still be long journeys. The same on the MML and ECML.

What will see the end of it will be station catering and prices of catering on trains relative to off train catering. If trains price themselves too high relative to the competition then there will be fewer sales and hence closure.
 

Class 170101

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Why do we need to make travel on HS2 so complicated?

Why shouldn't it operate in the same way as the current Avanti Pendolino service, i.e. Any Permitted tickets valid on a walk on basis (subject to time restrictions etc). It'll have more in common with an outer suburban service rather than inter-city anyway, given journey length.

If a premium must be charged for HS2 then rename the current 'Any Permitted' fares as 'not via HS2' and increase the price of the 'Any Permitted' fare.

Simples.

I agree and I cannot see any government changing the fare / pricing structure when there is space that can be used and people will be willing to stand to New Street and beyond.
 

MarkyT

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Perhaps the level of discount we've been used to seeing for bulk purchase shouldn't be so great, but people have been talking about that for the existing rail network for years as well as well.
 

JonathanH

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I think its almost a given that fares via HS2 will be higher than current WCML fares despite what the current government says, it does not tie the hands of the next. services on classic lines in Kent to London were slowed down, and this is from those that used them, to make HS1 services more attractive and it also has HS1 specific fares. The same will happen for HS2.

If fares are increased on HS2, I think they will be increased on the WCML as well - ie they could be higher but there won't be a differential. It is not in anyone's interest to have cheaper fares on the Euston-Watford-Milton Keynes-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham International-Birmingham New Street trains than the Euston-Old Oak Common-Birmingham Interchange-Birmingham Curzon Street services.

The services on the classic line will be slowed down - that is the whole point.

HS1 goes to a different terminal in London from the classic services. HS2 goes to Euston just like the current service. There is a bit of a difference - it is just a way of building the bypass lines on the WCML (and later MML / ECML).
 

Class 170101

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If fares are increased on HS2, I think they will be increased on the WCML as well - ie they could be higher but there won't be a differential. It is not in anyone's interest to have cheaper fares on the Euston-Watford-Milton Keynes-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham International-Birmingham New Street trains than the Euston-Old Oak Common-Birmingham Interchange-Birmingham Curzon Street services.

The services on the classic line will be slowed down - that is the whole point.

But that is exactly what there is on Kent Coast services alongside HS1. Cheaper fares but slower trains on the classic route versus higher fares and faster trains via HS1.
 

Ianno87

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But that is exactly what there is on Kent Coast services alongside HS1. Cheaper fares but slower trains on the classic route versus higher fares and faster trains via HS1.


And the faster, more expensive trains are the ones that are full to bursting.
 

JonathanH

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But that is exactly what there is on Kent Coast services alongside HS1. Cheaper fares but slower trains on the classic route versus higher fares and faster trains via HS1.

That doesn't mean it needs to be replicated on HS2. It is quite possible to charge the same amount on HS2 as on the residual West Coast Partnership service on the fast lines of the West Coast Main Line. Why would a single operator charge lower fares on its services with less capacity?

HS1 is a bit different - they are running 240m trains on both the high speed and classic routes. The plan is to run longer trains on HS2 than on the classic routes.
 

edwin_m

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This is all very 'purist'. While I recognise that it is not desirable for the ease of travelling to London to cause a 'braindrain' from the West Midlands or further afield, the whole point of building HS2 is to move demand off the routes where the fast services currently run. They have even ensured that the same operator provides the legacy 'fast' service on the WCML and the service on HS2.

If HS2 fares are out of line or different from those on the existing routes, people will see HS2 as something which is not for them and that will not move the demand from the existing routes which is what is needed. All you end up with is people saying "they have taken away our perfectly good service to London and made it slower forcing us to use HS2 against our will". People commute from Birmingham to London already.

As noted in this thread, people simply need to see HS2 simply as the extra fast lines on the WCML (and later MML and ECML) that happen not to be built alongside for well established reasons and not as something different.
The whole point of HS2 is not to do with moving passengers off existing services - you're confusing features with benefits. The point is to improve the UK economy and to re-balance it away from London and implicitly towards a more sustainable future. I contend that encouraging commuting, rather than business (and to a lesser extent leisure) travel, would run counter to those objectives.

Under my proposal people who commute from Birmingham to London would enjoy a similar service at a similar price to what they get today, but would have to pay more for high speed. But peak fares for one-off journeys would be less, probably from intermediate stations as well because they shouldn't be disadvantaged relative to the places served by HS2. This might in fact result in the situation where there are no season tickets on HS2, a commuter just buys five Anytime returns.
Perhaps the level of discount we've been used to seeing for bulk purchase shouldn't be so great, but people have been talking about that for the existing rail network for years as well as well.
It's difficult to do because people will lose out on an arrangement they have based their lifestyles on. Much less difficult just not to introduce the facility on high speed, as this doesn't disadvantage any existing travelers.
If fares are increased on HS2, I think they will be increased on the WCML as well - ie they could be higher but there won't be a differential. It is not in anyone's interest to have cheaper fares on the Euston-Watford-Milton Keynes-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham International-Birmingham New Street trains than the Euston-Old Oak Common-Birmingham Interchange-Birmingham Curzon Street services.

The services on the classic line will be slowed down - that is the whole point.

HS1 goes to a different terminal in London from the classic services. HS2 goes to Euston just like the current service. There is a bit of a difference - it is just a way of building the bypass lines on the WCML (and later MML / ECML).
I agree in general that there should be parity of fares including intermediate destinations being consistent with the fares between HS2 stations. This suggests a cross-the-board cut in Anytimes. But for the reasons I've explained I would make an exception for seasons - not conceptually much different from the operator-specific seasons we have today.
 

JonathanH

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The whole point of HS2 is not to do with moving passengers off existing services

Isn't the point (maybe not the benefit) to move the existing services (with the same passengers) off the existing routes to release capacity on those existing routes for shorter distance commuters?

I contend that encouraging commuting, rather than business (and to a lesser extent leisure) travel, would run counter to those objectives.

Perhaps people could be made to pay more if they travel more than once in a week than if they just go once.
 

Ianno87

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Part of the Eurostar doesn't sell season tickets is that there's simply no market.

Except for Lille-Brussels, where they *do* sell season tickets. But a reservatiom must be made for every journey, at a cost of €3.
 

paul1609

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I think its almost a given that fares via HS2 will be higher than current WCML fares despite what the current government says, it does not tie the hands of the next. services on classic lines in Kent to London were slowed down, and this is from those that used them, to make HS1 services more attractive and it also has HS1 specific fares. The same will happen for HS2.



I still think you will have some catering between Birmingham and London and Crewe to London via WCML as not all the intermediate stations will be 'served' by HS2 but will still be long journeys. The same on the MML and ECML.

What will see the end of it will be station catering and prices of catering on trains relative to off train catering. If trains price themselves too high relative to the competition then there will be fewer sales and hence closure.

The Kent Coast to London had catering that lasted on the mainline services well after HS1 opened but five years after HS1 opened I think around 95% of Ashford and beyond to London traffic had defected to HS1. Even at stations like Headcorn the car park today is no where near as busy as it was before HS1 opened. The loss of the longer distance passengers meant that the trolley made ever bigger losses until it was withdrawn. I think the same will happen on the WCML.
 

HSTEd

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Southeastern HS is a totally different market, and is a lot more like the Class 350s that stop at Leighton Buzzard then move over to the fasts to Euston. HS2 will be a pure InterCity product.
"Intercity" with journeys that would be amongst the shortest intercity journeys on the system?

Do you think you will maintain a "high quality" intercity style product on the Birmingham trains when the maximum journey time is 45-50 minutes, or Manchester at 66 minutes?
 
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