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My suggestion to re-open the Whole Great Central route

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MidnightFlyer

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Hasn't there been a proposal for years for a Rugby Parkway down near DIRFT? The somewhat slow progress on that suggests to me that a parkway in that area might not be the most fruitful project.
 
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HSTEd

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As I mentioned previously, a single container lift is £20 (source Julian Worth CILT). HGV running costs £1.89p per mile (source RHA).
Two lifts cost £40 which equals 21.16 miles of HGV running.

The problem is that that is a significant distance.
The average length of an articulated lorry haul in the UK is approximately 75 miles (page 7/11).

We are going to have to compete on 100-150 mile hauls if we want to capture a significant market share.
Where 20 miles of lift costs are rather significant.
A container train may have one expensive loco on it, but your ro-ro shuttle train also has one expensive loco on it PLUS 30 HGV tractor units, trailers and drivers, which could be elsewhere earning money.

Let's take the example of a haul from somewhere near the M40/M25 (vicinity of slough) to the vicinity of Mancheser Airport - roughly 165 miles.

A ro-ro train would load/unload in something like ten minutes [two lorries on and two off at a time] based on the experience of the Chunnel Shuttle, then proceed at 140km/h to the destination, arriving roughly 2 hours later, followed by rapid unloading/reloading and a return leg of 2 hours, utilising baloon loops to minimise the need for end-changing or anything like that.
Two loads (one each direction) can be handled at a cycle time of 4hr20 per set.
If we need to carry more vehicles we can easily add more loading and unloading points at relatively low cost, we just need flat wagons and a concrete platform.

A conventional train apparently has a turnaround time of roughly 90 minutes. (p9/12)
Even if we assume the train has the same performance curve - that is a 7hr cycle time for two loads.

Which means that cycle time is 260 minutes rather than 420 minutes.
So the roro set can haul the same load as 1.6 conventional sets.

Whilst the roro set has to haul 30 tractor units around, the capital cost of HGV tractor units are apparently about £100k each although it is very hard to get good figures.
That ranslates to about £3m in costs.
Which means if the trainset costs more than £5m, hauling the tractor units around in return for increase productivity is a good trade.
Given locomotives cost £3m+, it seems highly unlikely that an 800m set would not be more than that price.

As to drivers, whilst productivity is hurt we have to account for the fact that unless you actually want to pay for four container lifts per transit instead of two, the drivers will end up spending considerable amounts of time waiting around for their lorries to be loaded and unloaded.
Given that a driver is only ot of action for 2 hours during the journey, it seems reasonable that the total saving in driver time will not be that large - to avoid demurrage they are going to be waiting for the train when he arrives.

With a ro ro service, you can just allow lorries to drive directly onto the loading platform - using ANPR to identify vehicles for invoicing purposes.
There is no security problems associated with having to ensure that the lorry that turns up at the far end to pick up the container is the one actually authorised to collect the load.

Additionally thanks to the far higher road-to-road speed of ~70mph average, if we could provide suitably high frequencies we could pick up huge amounts of traffic, including most people who are driving to destinations north of Manchester on the M6

Then you say it will all have to be newbuild lines. ANY newbuild in the UK would only be High Speed for passengers, freeing classic capacity for freight. Any thoughts of newbuild for freight, except minor works, whether by private or public capital are pure flights of fancy.

Any High Speed construction is likely to be on routes where there will be no released capacity that isn't immediately snapped up for local service trains.
And without newbuild for freight, I can't see freight competing or expanding significantly, there are just too many more (politically and economically) renumerative options for available capacity.
 

70014IronDuke

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Sorry I think the thread title was moderated with my suggestion. ...
Oh. I see. OK. Apologies for 'picking' on you then. I must say, I immediately detested this form of thread titling from the first time I saw it on here. 99% of "my" suggestions I see as titles are nothing of the sort - meaning they've been thought of and suggested ten thousand times, and anyone who thinks it is their own original thought is incredibly deluded.

I think space for a track by the HS1 segment should be added by Parliament, and to safeguard the whole route. With the East West line it may be a lot of the intermodal traffic blocking the WCML could in theory move via this and the Woodhead to Manchester and even Scotland. I have edited as no intention of 'conspiracies'. Indeed a loosely connected series of local lines may be the best outcome, but it isn't a daft suggestion, and depending on Government attitudes nor is it unrealistic.

You mean HS2 of course, not HS1.
Long, critical sections of the original GC route (particularly through Leicester and Nottingham) have been built over, as outlined by several posters in this thread, and in dozens of similar threads prior to this one.

I am afraid your ideas are - in the UK's current economic-social-political environment - wildly unrealistic. (As were my own ideas to 'save' the GC which I drew up in 1965 as a schoolboy and showed to a BR middle-manager. He was kind, and merely smiled at the time.)
 

70014IronDuke

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Which it does, the line up to Calvert is moved quite substantially to the east to get HS2 in around the Calvert area itself and the waste terminal is being moved further south. You would require a bridge under E-W which there is no provision for and it would also cause issues with HS2 depot.
Well, that's that then!

I would ask the question of what use to Brackley and Buckingham this would be without some concrete evidence of where residents want to go, I would expect the major flows to be towards MK. If that is the case I would be looking for the line to Verney Jn rather than the Great Central.

It's a bit chicken and egg, don't you think?
With no direct line to London for 50 years or more, I dare say the population of these places would be somewhat skewed against the settlement of commuters to London. Just as, say, villages like Sharnbrook (and nearby) on the Midland missed out when the 1960 DMU suburban service was deemed only suitable for purpose up to Bedford.

But IIRC, even after the great Great Central rationalisation of the same year, which left the 'main line' with only three trains e/w between Aylesbury and Nottingham Vic, there was still a DMU extended to and from Brackley* in the mornings and evenings - indicating that even in those far off days there was some commuter demand. (* I think it was Brackley. Might have been Rugby.)

It's obvious that in the intervening years populations have vastly increased and such traffic has ballooned along routes that continued to exist - just look a few miles west to the fromer GWR + joint route - Bicester was a sleepy market town like Brackley and Buckingham in the 60s and Banbury, while a more serious town back then, has to be a near metropolis in comparison today.

Regardless, I can foresee the residents (and developers) in Buckingham & Brackley waking up to the possibility of a simple, single-line extension to the GC at some point and campaigning for it. Alas, as you indicate - current plans will virtually preclude that for ever.
 

70014IronDuke

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... also if people want to go to London its drive to MK for a quick journey. ...

With that philosophy you could have closed dozens of stations in the SE in the 1960s, eg close the joint line and tell Bicesterians to "drive to Oxford"
Had Brackley been retained as the northern terminus of the GC in 1966, it is blindingly obvious it would be twice the size it is today, and the commuter service would be thriving, with some form of "Buckingham Parkway" - probably near Finmere.
 

DavidGrain

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The Chiltern Railways franchise envisaged an extension from Aylesbury towards Rugby. This is the reason that Chiltern were given such a long term franchise. However HS2 put a stop to this. When the East-West line gets finished we may see trains from Marylebone to Milton Keynes on the WCML.

I have always contended that the GCR should never have been built but having been built should never have been closed.

I am new to this forum. This is my first post and to be honest I have not had the chance to read through all this thread so my apologies if I am repeating anything anyone else has said.
 

70014IronDuke

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The Chiltern Railways franchise envisaged an extension from Aylesbury towards Rugby. This is the reason that Chiltern were given such a long term franchise. However HS2 put a stop to this. When the East-West line gets finished we may see trains from Marylebone to Milton Keynes on the WCML.

I have always contended that the GCR should never have been built but having been built should never have been closed.

I am new to this forum. This is my first post and to be honest I have not had the chance to read through all this thread so my apologies if I am repeating anything anyone else has said.

Welcome to the Forum. Your middle sentence should be good for a few responses - nothing like a "GC should never have been built or closed" thread to warm keyboards across the country. Well, you could try "Carmarthen to Aberystwyth reopening is vital for Welsh economy" I suppose ...... on second thoughts, perhaps not :)
 

The Planner

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The Chiltern Railways franchise envisaged an extension from Aylesbury towards Rugby. This is the reason that Chiltern were given such a long term franchise. However HS2 put a stop to this. When the East-West line gets finished we may see trains from Marylebone to Milton Keynes on the WCML.
HS2 didn't put a stop to it, Chiltern proposed this back in 2000 and then realised the cost and getting it through the various parliamentary processes wasn't going to work. HS2 was a long time after that.
 

Railwaysceptic

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I have always contended that the GCR should never have been built but having been built should never have been closed.

I assume you mean the Great Central Railway's London extension. Originally The Great Central Railway, an amalgam of several smaller railway companies, was a successful company with a very substantial freight business based on ports and the coal and steel industries. Unusually, it operated more on an East/West axis than the North/South axis that most other major railway companies worked. From Liverpool to Grimsby and Cleethorpes and down into the Nottinghamshire coal fields was its terrain.

The later London extension was a unbusiness-like venture which lost money from the first day. I have long suspected it was constructed solely to line the pockets of the boss of the GCR who was also a share-holder of The Metropolitan Railway which would receive payment from GCR for running trains over its metals.

When, after the 1923 re-grouping, the GCR became part of the LNER, the London extension was a lame duck. There was no sensible way for the LNER to route its freight traffic from east London onto the London extension. Nor did they need to. If the LNER had been more profit-orientated, they would have closed the London extension in the late 1920s and also begun eliminating the duplication of railways in the East Midlands where both the ex Great Northern and ex Great Central served the same collieries and towns.
 
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I wonder, would it be possible to reopen part of the line between Banbury and link it with the existing line to Leicester near Wigston. With a grade separated junction at Wigston this would create a link for freight from Southampton although you would have the problem of getting it through the existing Leicester station. Beyond that I carn't see any need to reopen north of Leicester as the fronaton through Leicester ans Nottingham are gone.
 

Andrewlong

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If the LNER had been more profit-orientated, they would have closed the London extension in the late 1920s and also begun eliminating the duplication of railways in the East Midlands where both the ex Great Northern and ex Great Central served the same collieries and towns.

Interesting thought. Perhaps closing down a 20 year extension with all the job losses was too unpalatable. Or the rest of the GCR was profitable enough to subsidise the link to London.
 

aylesbury

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Brackley would not have doubled its size its not a that convenient for commuters in the seventies people from Aylesbury did move there as houses were cheaper there but many found the drive to Aylesbury a pain in the arse.Buckingham is only just starting to grow and is a car based community and MK is the best route for London and it is an employment hotspot that's the reason people are moving there ..The GCR extension was built as part of Channel Tunnel venture that Watkin was financing and after it opened the project fell through but the line was there and he tried to make it pay and only coal to London made any money.It truly was a doomed project and I don't think many were sad to see it go.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Interesting thought. Perhaps closing down a 20 year extension with all the job losses was too unpalatable. Or the rest of the GCR was profitable enough to subsidise the link to London.

Unlikely. The LNER was never a rich company and by the outbreak of World War Two was on the verge of bankruptcy. If they had been more clear sighted and more cold-blooded, their financial position would have been better.
 

TheBeard

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Remember the population then was only a third of what it is today. And a freight interchange could be developed
 

keith1879

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I assume you mean the Great Central Railway's London extension. Originally The Great Central Railway, an amalgam of several smaller railway companies, was a successful company with a very substantial freight business based on ports and the coal and steel industries. Unusually, it operated more on an East/West axis than the North/South axis that most other major railway companies worked. From Liverpool to Grimsby and Cleethorpes and down into the Nottinghamshire coal fields was its terrain.

The later London extension was a unbusiness-like venture which lost money from the first day. I have long suspected it was constructed solely to line the pockets of the boss of the GCR who was also a share-holder of The Metropolitan Railway which would receive payment from GCR for running trains over its metals.

When, after the 1923 re-grouping, the GCR became part of the LNER, the London extension was a lame duck. There was no sensible way for the LNER to route its freight traffic from east London onto the London extension. Nor did they need to. If the LNER had been more profit-orientated, they would have closed the London extension in the late 1920s and also begun eliminating the duplication of railways in the East Midlands where both the ex Great Northern and ex Great Central served the same collieries and towns.

Apologies in advance if you feel I am splitting hairs. The name "Great Central Railway" is inextricably linked with the London extension. The railway was previously the "Manchester Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway" only adopting the new title because of the forthcoming extension.
 

DavidGrain

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Although I have expressed comments about the GCR as built, I am well pleased with the fact that I can get peak period trains from my little suburban station to the west of Birmingham to London Marylebone thanks to the co-operation between the GWR and the GCR. OK, this is nothing to do with whether or not the GCR London Extension should be re-opened or not but it does show that even today there are advantages to it thanks to Chiltern Railways.
 

70014IronDuke

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Brackley would not have doubled its size its not a that convenient for commuters in the seventies people from Aylesbury did move there as houses were cheaper there but many found the drive to Aylesbury a pain in the arse.

If this is in response to my post, which it would appear to be (as I said Brackley would have doubled in size) - then you reply is utter nonsense. Of course, in the 1970s, driving to Aylesbury was a "pain in the arse". I suspect it would be today too.

Please read what I wrote again. I suggested that Brackley would have doubled in size HAD the GC been kept open, with a basic commuter service to London. (all that would have been required would have been the extension of 1 TPH Aylesbury - Marylebone service. You answer does not correspond to my scenario.
In fact, after the closure of the GC, I suspect many Brackley - London commuters would have preferred to drive to Aynho or Bicester rather than Aylesbury.

Buckingham is only just starting to grow and is a car based community ...
Really? You amaze me! I don't know, but do you think this could have something to do with the fact that there has not been a rail link to Buckingham for something like 55 years, perhaps?

... and MK is the best route for London and it is an employment hotspot that's the reason people are moving there ..

I can fully believe, as you argue, that Buckingham is increasingly linked to Milton Keynes today. The roads to MK have been thoroughly upgraded in the past 30 years or so. But you appear to have problems with scenarios that need to deal with other than the factual reality. It's called "using your imagination" - and I don't mean fantasising. To repeat, I am positing that IF the GC had remained open ( and all it needed would have be 1 TPH four car unit to Brackley to Marylebone) then there would have been presssure before now - probably starting in the 80s, but definitely in the 1990s - to build a simple Parkway station to offer a closer station than MK for Buckingham on the GC to London.

The GCR extension was built as part of Channel Tunnel venture that Watkin was financing and after it opened the project fell through but the line was there and he tried to make it pay and only coal to London made any money.It truly was a doomed project and I don't think many were sad to see it go.

I can fully agree that - without any direct link to the SECR or Channel Tunnel - the GC was doomed to (mostly) closure from the 1960s. But nobody on this thread seems to have considered its value in the war years of 1914-18 and 1939-45, when I suspect the GC carried heavy traffic without fair renumeration for the sake of the nation's defence.

I can assure you many were sad to see it go. Whether they were sad enough to be prepared to pay some increase in taxes to keep it open with subsidies is another matter.
 

DarloRich

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Hasn't there been a proposal for years for a Rugby Parkway down near DIRFT? The somewhat slow progress on that suggests to me that a parkway in that area might not be the most fruitful project.

Still alive but coupled to residential development in the area which has stalled.

The Chiltern Railways franchise envisaged an extension from Aylesbury towards Rugby. This is the reason that Chiltern were given such a long term franchise. However HS2 put a stop to this. When the East-West line gets finished we may see trains from Marylebone to Milton Keynes on the WCML.

That is wrong on many levels. HS2 didn't put a stop to these plans ( which I doubt were really firm plans). Chiltern quickly dropped these ideas once they looked at the costs and the returns.

Sorry I think the thread title was moderated with my suggestion.

I think space for a track by the HS1 segment should be added by Parliament, and to safeguard the whole route. With the East West line it may be a lot of the intermodal traffic blocking the WCML could in theory move via this and the Woodhead to Manchester and even Scotland. I have edited as no intention of 'conspiracies'. Indeed a loosely connected series of local lines may be the best outcome, but it isn't a daft suggestion, and depending on Government attitudes nor is it unrealistic.

And Rugby is a bottleneck put some of the locals down to Marylebone...

you are detached from reality. Rugby is certainly not a bottleneck. It actually works quite well.
 

swt_passenger

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HS2 didn't put a stop to it, Chiltern proposed this back in 2000 and then realised the cost and getting it through the various parliamentary processes wasn't going to work. HS2 was a long time after that.
AIUI from their franchise documentation, as part of the 20 year plans "Chiltern" had to propose a list of a number of proposed improvements, of which the Rugby parkway station was one of those that made the first cut. But they were never required to undertake all the listed projects, what eventually became the Evergreen series of projects, (with Evergreen 3 becoming EWR phase 1) were eventually agreed with DfT to be taken forward.
 

DarloRich

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AIUI from their franchise documentation, as part of the 20 year plans "Chiltern" had to propose a list of a number of proposed improvements, of which the Rugby parkway station was one of those that made the first cut. But they were never required to undertake all the listed projects, what eventually became the Evergreen series of projects, (with Evergreen 3 becoming EWR phase 1) were eventually agreed with DfT to be taken forward.

Chiltern were never, ever, going to open a line to Rugby.
 

Andyjs247

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If this is in response to my post, which it would appear to be (as I said Brackley would have doubled in size) - then you reply is utter nonsense. Of course, in the 1970s, driving to Aylesbury was a "pain in the arse". I suspect it would be today too.

Please read what I wrote again. I suggested that Brackley would have doubled in size HAD the GC been kept open, with a basic commuter service to London. (all that would have been required would have been the extension of 1 TPH Aylesbury - Marylebone service. You answer does not correspond to my scenario.

In fact, after the closure of the GC, I suspect many Brackley - London commuters would have preferred to drive to Aynho or Bicester rather than Aylesbury.
Brackley commuters are likely to choose Banbury or Bicester. Even now it is not a huge market. Aylesbury would never be an option.

On it’s own Brackley was not sufficient to sustain a train service. (It still isn’t big enough IMO). If the GC still existed, yes the town would likely be bigger now, but not just because of the railway. The M40 has been the key factor in growth. Since the M40 opened 27 years ago the A43 has been dualled through Brackley also. It has a fairly decent 2bph bus service to Banbury but that’s about it. Even to Northampton the service is quite poor.

But to have any chance of surviving the train service would actually have to continue to where the people are - ie Rugby and beyond.

Remember the route through Bicester North was single track in the 80s. But it survived as a through route because it provided useful connections to Banbury, Birmingham and beyond.
I don't know, but do you think this could have something to do with the fact that there has not been a rail link to Buckingham for something like 55 years, perhaps?

I can fully believe, as you argue, that Buckingham is increasingly linked to Milton Keynes today. The roads to MK have been thoroughly upgraded in the past 30 years or so.
Not from Buckingham or Bicester or other places west of MK. Roads haven’t been improved. Lack of a branch line hasn’t made much difference.

But you appear to have problems with scenarios that need to deal with other than the factual reality. It's called "using your imagination" - and I don't mean fantasising. To repeat, I am positing that IF the GC had remained open ( and all it needed would have be 1 TPH four car unit to Brackley to Marylebone) then there would have been presssure before now - probably starting in the 80s, but definitely in the 1990s - to build a simple Parkway station to offer a closer station than MK for Buckingham on the GC to London.

A 1tph service to Marylebone from Brackley would just cart fresh air. It would not provide a useful Parkway for Buckingham. Faster journeys are already possible via Bicester (or for that matter MK) than going to Brackley then via Aylesbury.
 

edwin_m

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A parkway on the GC (near Finmere) wouldn't be much more attractive for potential Buckingham-London commuters than the EWR station at Winslow assuming Marylebone trains also call there. So any Buckingham-London passengers using Finmere would most likely be abstracted from Winslow rather than new to the railway. Winslow also serves a wider range of destinations and connections than Finmere would, unless the GC was re-opened well into the Midlands.
 

Railwaysceptic

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. . . . nobody on this thread seems to have considered its value in the war years of 1914-18 and 1939-45, when I suspect the GC carried heavy traffic without fair renumeration for the sake of the nation's defence . . . .

Yes, well: all mainline railways were extremely heavily used during both wars, and after the wars the railway companies were not properly compensated for their contribution to the war effort. The Great Central route was not an exceptional case.
 

aylesbury

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In the sixties when the GC was closed the car was in the ascendance in a big way especially along its route, and more importantly passenger numbers were falling away rapidly. Some passengers had found the Banbury service which gave interchange to Birmingham services but BR did not over publicise it, the station for northward express travel was Watford Junction which was a pain to get to. Brackley was a small market town with very few factories as was Buckingham so even with a subsidy they would not supporte rail services. In the seventies expansion started especially at Brackley with a trading estate offering employment but not in a big way. Things stayed the same until recently when developers started eyeing up the fields around the town even if the houses are built rail wont figure as public transport. Buckingham has expanded but is not a great employment hotspot and rightly as has been said MK is the place to go to its only fifteen good mile away with work, enjoyment and give it time will join up to Buckingham.
 
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