N Wales Slate waste - "export" by rail

[AndrewE]

We haven't had a specific thread on this recently (I found https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/blaenau-festiniog-slate-waste.83211/) but with the establishment of a flow from Llandudno Jct to Earles sidings in addition to one to Luton (https://stonespecialist.com/news/na...sh-slate-re-opens-llandudno-junction-railhead) I wonder whether a bit more investment might eliminate a lot more road traffic in N Wales?
The Earles flow should run until 2042 when they have to stop extracting limestone - but the cement works could continue by importing limestone too...

In which case would it be worth a) upgrading the Conwy valley branch and taking slate from closer to the railhead (or putting in conveyor belts to feed it as Cwt-y-Bugail quarries are quite a long way from Blaenau Ffestiniog) and b) putting stone which comes from Bethesda onto rail at Penmaenmawr if a loading point can't be established somewhere just east of Bangor?

We need to decarbonise whatever we can, making cement emits loads of CO2 but we shall continue to need concrete, so we should at least eliminate road transport of the raw materials wherever we can.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I have a dream of the Penrhyn Quarry Railway and the Rhiwbach Tramway being reinstated, but I doubt the economics would stack-up. Mind you, the Welsh Highland Railway rebuilding was a distant dream once!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Cement manufacturing broadly only makes economic sense when the limestone/chalk is found literally ‘next door’. Hence the number of cement works around the Peak District, in Kent and other limestone areas.
It obviously helps even more if complementary materials - shale, gypsum, etc. - and fuel, originally coal, are also nearby or can be brought in cheaply by sea.
Hope cement works was situated at the boundary of limestone and other minerals between the ‘White Peak’ and ‘Dark Peak’ (at the edge of the eroded anticline that is the essence of the area). The Weald, between the North and South Downs is loosely similar. Hope was also relatively close to coal from other parts of Derbyshire.
It is completely unsustainable to ship in all raw materials from elsewhere to a ‘stranded’ site that has lost or exhausted its local resources.
Planning consent for ANY industrial production at Hope ‘drops dead’ in 2042, with a further five years for demolition and remediation.
The clock is ticking down.

 

[AndrewE]

It is completely unsustainable to ship in all raw materials from elsewhere to a ‘stranded’ site that has lost or exhausted its local resources.
Planning consent for ANY industrial production at Hope ‘drops dead’ in 2042, with a further five years for demolition and remediation.
The clock is ticking down.

that's still 18 years away though, and it makes sense not to incur the energy costs of moving it (i.e. building a new one) if you don't have to...
And how much surplus cement production capacity does the UK have?

 

[Dr Hoo]

You seem to be under impression that Hope Cement works could continue to operate without quarrying (by bringing in all materials from elsewhere thereafter).
So far as I am aware, which includes speaking at length to Bredon’s Works Manager during an extended ‘drop in’ consultation exhibition at Hope recently, a complete cessation of production by 2042 is mandated. Demolition of the works buildings, remediation of the entire site (works footprint, landscaping of suitably ‘benched’ quarries with native vegetation, etc.) has to be completed by 2047.
I know that some people have suggested things like zip-wire experiences, bungee jumping, rotating viewing platforms on top of the chimney and so on but these do not seem to be finding favour with the National Park authorities.
Cement is traded internationally and the UK already imports some. There is a great deal of research into alternatives to traditional ‘Portland’ cement that would emit far less CO2 in the process.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Cement is traded internationally and the UK already imports some.

Yes, one of the principal traffics on the River Shannon and Manchester Ship Canal is bulk cement from Irish Cement at Castlemungret to the Premier cement terminal at Weaste.

 

[Meerkat]

I have a dream of the Penrhyn Quarry Railway and the Rhiwbach Tramway being reinstated, but I doubt the economics would stack-up. Mind you, the Welsh Highland Railway rebuilding was a distant dream once!

Often looked wistfully at Penrhyn, crayons poised, but without being able to get to Bangor it just makes even less sense than most crayoning.
My crayons then move onto using the slate waste traffic to fund a reconstruction of the Llanberis Lake railway using the old standard gauge route to Caernarfon and transfer to coastal shipping, also to be used to get tourists to Snowdon. All economically ‘challenging’ of course…….
It’s crazy that the Blaenau line isn’t used, but the I don’t understand the desire to keep the slate waste in situ - get rid of most of it and re green the place so it doesn’t look so miserable in the incessant rain!

 

[Llanigraham]

Often looked wistfully at Penrhyn, crayons poised, but without being able to get to Bangor it just makes even less sense than most crayoning.
My crayons then move onto using the slate waste traffic to fund a reconstruction of the Llanberis Lake railway using the old standard gauge route to Caernarfon and transfer to coastal shipping, also to be used to get tourists to Snowdon. All economically ‘challenging’ of course…….
It’s crazy that the Blaenau line isn’t used, but the I don’t understand the desire to keep the slate waste in situ - get rid of most of it and re green the place so it doesn’t look so miserable in the incessant rain!

Do you realise just how many thousands of tonnes of slate waste there is in and around Blaenau?
And it doesn't incessantly rain there!

 

[6Gman]

Often looked wistfully at Penrhyn, crayons poised, but without being able to get to Bangor it just makes even less sense than most crayoning.
My crayons then move onto using the slate waste traffic to fund a reconstruction of the Llanberis Lake railway using the old standard gauge route to Caernarfon and transfer to coastal shipping, also to be used to get tourists to Snowdon. All economically ‘challenging’ of course…….
It’s crazy that the Blaenau line isn’t used, but the I don’t understand the desire to keep the slate waste in situ - get rid of most of it and re green the place so it doesn’t look so miserable in the incessant rain!

As a near-native of the area the slate waste is key to the character of places such as Blaenau and Llanberis. To remove it (other than for safety reasons) would, in my opinion, be to erase a key element of its history and character.

 

[Meerkat]

As a near-native of the area the slate waste is key to the character of places such as Blaenau and Llanberis. To remove it (other than for safety reasons) would, in my opinion, be to erase a key element of its history and character.

I just find that a bit odd to consider the waste as heritage rather than a scar on the landscape . The buildings would still be around, and not all the slate waste would be economically recoverable anyway.
Are there any other industries treated like this - great efforts have gone into covering up and regreening the waste from coal mining and China clay extraction.

 

[AndrewE]

I imagine there must be some tips where the stability is more than a bit iffy, and would have thought that progressive removal of these would be welcomed by the owners of property or land lower down the slope. Some places might be attached to the reminders of their past - and I think the coal mine relics were erased pdq regardless of cost to try to remove memories of what was done to that industry - but I'm sure the steady work from mining the slate waste would be welcome in the relatively remote places where they are situated.

I would far rather see the mining of these tips (and others) in a planned and energy-sensitive way by steady export than a panic reaction after a slip, when I am sure it would be done in a wasteful way. (Think Covid PPE procurement.)

 

[Penmorfa]

I imagine there must be some tips where the stability is more than a bit iffy, and would have thought that progressive removal of these would be welcomed by the owners of property or land lower down the slope. Some places might be attached to the reminders of their past - and I think the coal mine relics were erased pdq regardless of cost to try to remove memories of what was done to that industry - but I'm sure the steady work from mining the slate waste would be welcome in the relatively remote places where they are situated.

I would far rather see the mining of these tips (and others) in a planned and energy-sensitive way by steady export than a panic reaction after a slip, when I am sure it would be done in a wasteful way. (Think Covid PPE procurement.)

I think you are confusing the stability of slate tips with that of coal mine tips. The latter are inherently unstable whereas the former are not. Regarding Blaenau you may find this page of interest:

Slate waste

However it is most unlikely that the terminal outllined will ever happen now that the Llandudno Jct one has been built.

 

[AndrewE]

I think you are confusing the stability of slate tips with that of coal mine tips. The latter are inherently unstable whereas the former are not. Regarding Blaenau you may find this page of interest:

Slate waste

However it is most unlikely that the terminal outllined will ever happen now that the Llandudno Jct one has been built.

No, I am well aware of the difference between scree (loose dry rock on a slope) and coal tips. The problem at Aberfan was that the tip was "built" over a stream and the culvert was not sufficiently robust, so the whole lot liquified.
From walking in the N Wales area and seeing bulging walls along the bottom of some tips I still have the impression that quite a lot of the slate waste was randomly "placed."