National Rail & British Transport Police campaign regarding sexual harassment on the Railway

[DarloRich]

Would the starer be obligated to provide such details? For me, my main issue is that the police are going off tack from the letter of the law and making assumptions, "he looked at her, so he must be a sex attacker."

that isn't what is happening at all. I think you know that though....................

 

[LowLevel]

What would the police be able to do though for someone just staring? I can't imagine them saying "Louise Rogers, I am arresting you under suspicion of staring at Thomas Adams". I'd be worried about being charged myself for wasting police time.

Could a court of law rule staring as harrassment? I also think it's important to note that people with brown/black eyes can be difficult to determine where they are looking as their pupils are not always visible. For example a man could be looking out of the window at the Somerset countryside on his train trip and someone may mistakenly think he is looking at them.

Nobody wants to see people being groped and sexually assaulted but when it comes to a poster that is marked Police then I personally feel they should only be following up legally enforceable offences.

I find your comments interesting @LowLevel , that you interpret staring as a form of aggression. I guess we all react differently to certain behaviours. Would you speak up if someone was staring at you on the railway? Would you tell the Guard?

As "the Guard" myself most of the time on the trains I travel on then if someone told me someone was staring at them and making them feel uncomfortable then I would at the very least have a covert look and increase my presence in the area of the train in question. I wouldn't necessarily take overt action unless things developed further. Someone staring directly and repeatedly at another person is rarely a positive behavioural indicator, in my experience, which is quite considerable.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Millions of us happily go through life without being called a sex pest. If you really are that concerned about this campaign then perhaps you need to consider how you act.

Why should Brush 4 have to consider how they act though? If they are not a sex attacker or doing anything that is against the law then why shouldn't they feel free to look where they like? This is part of my issue with the campaign, when people see a poster relating to staring and it suggests contacting BTP, then the assumption is there that the starer is breaking the law.

As said, I believe that groping and making threats of abuse is wrong and I am all for that being reported, whether it is to a man, woman, trans or non binary person. However, I do think it will be a sad day if we get to the point of criminalising people for looking at someone and "sexually intrusive staring" is a matter of perception and I do think anyone that feels threatened for being looked at should probably seek professional help. I respect your opinions @Bertie the bus, this is what the forum is for, debate. I put it to you though, as a brown eyed person, how someone could determine if you were looking at a person sexually or non sexually when the direction of your pupils may not be apparent?

 

[DarloRich]

However, I do think it will be a sad day if we get to the point of criminalising people for looking at someone and "sexually intrusive staring" is a matter of perception and I do think anyone that feels threatened for being looked at should probably seek professional help

This is nonsense. No one is being criminalised for looking at someone. Again, I think you know that.

 

[NoOnesFool]

As "the Guard" myself most of the time on the trains I travel on then if someone told me someone was staring at them and making them feel uncomfortable then I would at the very least have a covert look and increase my presence in the area of the train in question. I wouldn't necessarily take overt action unless things developed further. Someone staring directly and repeatedly at another person is rarely a positive behavioural indicator, in my experience, which is quite considerable.

That's fine, if you have a gut instinct and choose to place yourself close by. You aren't actively taking action and at that stage have no reason to. My problem would be if you approached the staring passenger and made threats to remove them with no other reason or involve BTP.

Another important point to make is that some people have disabilities which means their eyes focus uncontrollably, for example, people who are blind, cross eyed, have lazy eyes. I could see the police falling foul of the Disability Discrimination Act potentially* if they took action against a passenger suffering from this condition.

 

[DarloRich]

I believe that groping and making threats of abuse is wrong and I am all for that being reported,

that's lucky - but not a precursor that could stop that happening. Got you.

 

[NoOnesFool]

This is nonsense. No one is being criminalised for looking at someone. Again, I think you know that.

The message is to contact the police, the police are there to enforce the law. Surely someone would have had to have broken the law for police presence to be there. It's a tedious situation and I think the debate needs to be had.

 

[DarloRich]

The message is to contact the police, the police are there to enforce the law. Surely someone would have had to have broken the law for police presence to be there. It's a tedious situation and I think the debate needs to be had.

How is it tedious? You are, I suspect wilfully, making a massive issue over nothing in order to make some convoluted anti "woke"/pc gone mad/cant do nothing now point. That's what is tedious

the police are there to enforce the law

as an aside "enforcing the law" does not require an arrest to be made

 

[NoOnesFool]

How is it tedious? You are, I suspect wilfully, making a massive issue over nothing in order to make some convoluted anti "woke"/pc gone mad/cant do nothing now point. That's what is tedious


as an aside "enforcing the law" does not require an arrest to be made

It's tedious to be told where to look, in my opinion. It's tedious to assume that everyone who looks/stares at you is a sex attacker/potential sex attacker.

The police have no more powers to tell you not to look at someone than you or I do, and they certainly can't enforce such advice. I ask you, would you call the police if someone was staring at you @DarloRich ? If not, I'd love to hear why.

 

[DarloRich]

It's tedious to be told where to look, in my opinion. It's tedious to assume that everyone who looks/stares at you is a sex attacker/potential sex attacker.

The police have no more powers to tell you not to look at someone than you or I do, and they certainly can't enforce such advice. I ask you, would you cal the police if someone was staring at you @DarloRich ? If not, I'd love to hear why.

No one is telling you where to look for goodness sake. You are wilfully missing the point.

 

[NoOnesFool]

No one is telling you where to look for goodness sake. You are wilfully missing the point.

I get the point, they are trying to cut down on sexual harrassment, this poster, for me is a bridge too far though. I know from other posters on this thread that I am not the only one who feels this way. I actually could not believe my eyes (pardon the pun) when I saw this poster. I've no issues with the posters asking to report sexual pressing, of course no one should experience that (without permission of course), but I feel the poster in question is a further step towards tyranny.

 

[Wolfie]

You are really grasping at straws here in trying to sensationalise something that is quite reasonable. You can tell if someone is staring at you because they face and look at you for a prolonged period. People don't face the other way and look sideways so no, people couldn't be innocently looking out of the window and be accused of staring at somebody.

Indeed. If you catch someone's eye unintentionally the instinct is to look away. If you don't it is quite deliberate.

 

[DarloRich]

I get the point, they are trying to cut down on sexual harrassment, this poster, for me is a bridge too far though. I know from other posters on this thread that I am not the only one who feels this way. I actually could not believe my eyes (pardon the pun) when I saw this poster. I've no issues with the posters asking to report sexual pressing, of course no one should experience that (without permission of course), but I feel the poster in question is a further step towards tyranny.

Total nonsense but thanks for sharing your view.

 

[Wolfie]

I’m sure you’d be over the moon if your 14 year old daughter came home in tears because a man had spent an entire train journey leering at her, eyeing her up, making sexually provocative remarks about her clothing and trying to photograph her, and the BTP told you there‘s nothing they can do to help her because it’s ‘just staring’.

Or maybe you could try having a bit of human decency and compassion and try to realise the world isn’t only inhabited by middle aged male railway enthusiasts. Women are made to feel uncomfortable by perverts seeking sexual gratification every day on the railway; it’s disgusting and it’s absolutely right that BTP are taking it seriously.

Absolutely

Millions of us happily go through life without being called a sex pest. If you really are that concerned about this campaign then perhaps you need to consider how you act. I have absolutely no worries about it at all, and I have brown eyes so apparently (according to this thread) nobody can tell whether I'm staring at them or not, and the vast majority of us do make some effort to not make others feel uncomfortable or threatened when in public places.

Absolutely

Total nonsense but thanks for sharing your view.

Agreed

 

[STINT47]

This concerns me as it means those who are accused have to prove their inoncence. I would be intresting to see how this would work if it ever ended up in a court. What is the legal definition of staring and how do you prove that it was sexual harrasment?

If I was daydreaming, looking across a carriage into space but someone thought I was looking at them would this be a crime? I might only be loooking for a couple of minuets whilst thinking about what I need to do when I get to work but someone may feel that two minuets is to long and that I had a sexual motive. A competent defense lawyer could explain what happened to a court and unless the prosecution can prove my motive for looking was sexual it would surley not meet the threshold of being guilty beyone resonable doubt.

I do not want to see people face any form of sexual harrasment whilst traviling on public transport but unless we can read minds we have no way of knowing for certain why somone may be acting as they are, fortunatley our justice system is not based on the accused having to prove their inocence at least for the moment.

This runs the risk of people contacting the police and train staff saying he was looking at me funny and I want him arrested, which would put everyone in a difficult posistion.

 

[Pit_buzzer]

This to me is a very worrying thread, we seem to have people trying to justify staring at people as though it's their right, a perfectly normal pastime that shouldn't be questioned.
You really need to get real, your behaviour is not acceptable

 

[OhNoAPacer]

This concerns me as it means those who are accused have to prove their inoncence. I would be intresting to see how this would work if it ever ended up in a court. What is the legal definition of staring and how do you prove that it was sexual harrasment?

If I was daydreaming, looking across a carriage into space but someone thought I was looking at them would this be a crime? I might only be loooking for a couple of minuets whilst thinking about what I need to do when I get to work but someone may feel that two minuets is to long and that I had a sexual motive. A competent defense lawyer could explain what happened to a court and unless the prosecution can prove my motive for looking was sexual it would surley not meet the threshold of being guilty beyone resonable doubt.

I do not want to see people face any form of sexual harrasment whilst traviling on public transport but unless we can read minds we have no way of knowing for certain why somone may be acting as they are, fortunatley our justice system is not based on the accused having to prove their inocence at least for the moment.

This runs the risk of people contacting the police and train staff saying he was looking at me funny and I want him arrested, which would put everyone in a difficult posistion.

I was going to comment, but you know what I really can't be bothered arguing. If I thought it might make anyone see sense I might, but it is clear that some people's martyrdom complex, even when they are not the victim, is just too deeply ingrained.

 

[Pit_buzzer]

I was going to comment, but you know what I really can't be bothered arguing. If I thought it might make anyone see sense I might, but it is clear that some people's martyrdom complex, even when they are not the victim, is just too deeply ingrained.

Can I ask if you've discussed this matter with your friends/family/colleagues. Just wondering how they respond to people staring at them, are they happy? Do they find it unsettling? Do they find it creepy?

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Can I ask if you've discussed this matter with your friends/family/colleagues. Just wondering how they respond to people staring at them, are they happy? Do they find it unsettling? Do they find it creepy?

I have heard many tales from female colleagues and acquaintances about what it us like to have men leering at them (and worse), so whilst I cannot know how unsettling it is I do understand that it is very unsettling and frightening.
Perhaps my post was not clear about which side of this argument I am on.
Staring is not okay.

 

[Journeyman]

I get the point, they are trying to cut down on sexual harrassment, this poster, for me is a bridge too far though. I know from other posters on this thread that I am not the only one who feels this way. I actually could not believe my eyes (pardon the pun) when I saw this poster. I've no issues with the posters asking to report sexual pressing, of course no one should experience that (without permission of course), but I feel the poster in question is a further step towards tyranny.

I don't think you have the slightest idea how scary many women and girls find navigating the everyday world to be. I suggest you stop digging holes for yourself - you're looking increasingly foolish here - and educate yourself on why a campaign like this is necessary.

It's not a "step towards tyranny" to make men realise that they can make women feel extremely uncomfortable and unsafe doing certain things. Until recently I didn't really understand what a big deal it is. Now, if I find myself walking at night behind a lone woman, I'll cross the road.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The issue here is in the staring in a sexual manner ie, eyeing the person up. A person doesn't need to make suggestive remarks or take photos etc. Repeatably staring at a person,either their face or body and being seen by that person to be doing so can be very intimidating. It's not like going out on the pull and hoping for a smile back,if there's no smile or positive interaction then the person should know when to stop and look out of the window instead. If not, they could now expect their collar felt if a complaint was made (and the BTP actually turned up) and rightly so!

 

[Journeyman]

The issue here is in the staring in a sexual manner ie, eyeing the person up. A person doesn't need to make suggestive remarks or take photos etc. Repeatably staring at a person,either their face or body and being seen by that person to be doing so can be very intimidating. It's not like going out on the pull and hoping for a smile back,if there's no smile or positive interaction then the person should know when to stop and look out of the window instead. If not, they could now expect their collar felt if a complaint was made (and the BTP actually turned up) and rightly so!

Absolutely. There's a lot of people here who seem unable to see the nuance and potential escalation here. It's almost like people are patting themselves on the back and congratulating themselves for not raping people, and thinking that's somehow virtuous. There's a lot of actions that can make people feel unsafe, and if you care about how people around you feel, you need to learn what they are and avoid doing them.

 

[NoOnesFool]

It's not a "step towards tyranny" to make men realise that they can make women feel extremely uncomfortable and unsafe doing certain things. Until

I'd suggest anyone who feels unsafe by being looked at or stared at seek psychological help. I don't see why people should change their behaviour, by crossing the street etc because of someone else's irrational fear. I for one would not avoid sitting near to a woman on a train and would not avoid looking in their direction. Their fear is their problem, not mine. For the record, I don't find women sexually attractive at all but I do feel heterosexual men are being unfairly vilified.

 

[Pit_buzzer]

I'd suggest anyone who feels unsafe by being looked at or stared at seek psychological help. I don't see why people should change their behaviour, by crossing the street etc because of someone else's irrational fear. I for one would not avoid sitting near to a woman on a train and would not avoid looking in their direction. Their fear is their problem, not mine. For the record, I don't find women sexually attractive at all but I do feel heterosexual men are being unfairly vilified.

You scare me, I fear you are exactly who this campaign is aimed at

 

[Volvictof]

I'd suggest anyone who feels unsafe by being looked at or stared at seek psychological help. I don't see why people should change their behaviour, by crossing the street etc because of someone else's irrational fear. I for one would not avoid sitting near to a woman on a train and would not avoid looking in their direction. Their fear is their problem, not mine. For the record, I don't find women sexually attractive at all but I do feel heterosexual men are being unfairly vilified.

That’s a really worrying statement. As a male (which I am) I would feel uncomfortable being stared at, but as a female?… I have enough empathy to know that it can be terrifying in the right circumstances, especially when they are on their own and at night. They don’t need psychological help just for being scared of someone who is staring at them…. They’re scared becasue they don’t know the intentions of the person staring at them and they don’t know where they are going, maybe if they get off at the same stop then they might follow them?

Why would you want someone to feel uncomfortable around you? This poster isn’t about accidentally looking at someone… it’s about prolonged staring and possibly at their chest/bum/legs etc. Normal non sex attackers tend not to do that.

Also calling the police doesn’t mean an arrest, it’s so the police can build up a picture. This might be the 5th call they’ve had about the same fella on the same weeknight in one month, it really helps them put a picture together of the person in question and why they are doing it. This isn’t a case of the next person to lock eyes with a woman by mistake getting pounced on and thrown in a jail cell.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Also calling the police doesn’t mean an arrest, it’s so the police can build up a picture. This might be the 5th call they’ve had about the same fella on the same weeknight in one mont

The police would have no legal grounds to take any action and said fella would not be breaking any law. Would you rather British Transport Police resources were spent investigating genuine attacks or people looking at each other?

 

[Gostav]

I’m sure you’d be over the moon if your 14 year old daughter came home in tears because a man had spent an entire train journey leering at her, eyeing her up, making sexually provocative remarks about her clothing and trying to photograph her, and the BTP told you there‘s nothing they can do to help her because it’s ‘just staring’.

Or maybe you could try having a bit of human decency and compassion and try to realise the world isn’t only inhabited by middle aged male railway enthusiasts. Women are made to feel uncomfortable by perverts seeking sexual gratification every day on the railway; it’s disgusting and it’s absolutely right that BTP are taking it seriously.

If you really worried your daughter's safely and really want to create an "absolutely safe environment" for her, you can call for legislation to restore the female compartments and female waiting rooms. Also the most important thing is to restore traditional education, such as the Victorian era when the genders were relatively isolated. Many European politicians are want "return to tradition" these days so it's not really outrageous.

 

[Volvictof]

The police would have no legal grounds to take any action and said fella would not be breaking any law. Would you rather British Transport Police resources were spent investigating genuine attacks or people looking at each other?

again, as myself and many others have already pointed out this isn’t “arresting people for looking at each other” this is prolonged staring of a sexual manner. If you’re are doing that to someone, you are a very bad person.

And I don’t know the legislation, maybe there is room in law for someone to be arrested for “staring” if it constitutes harassment but more likely this won’t be about arresting anyone, and more likely will be about building up intelligence to help prevent future crimes.

 

[Gostav]

The police would have no legal grounds to take any action and said fella would not be breaking any law. Would you rather British Transport Police resources were spent investigating genuine attacks or people looking at each other?

It depends on the social and culture atmosphere. For example, similar ethical standards in Middle Eastern countries must be stricter. As an international student, obviously I shouldn’t watch British ladies and keep my distance politely with those British ladies. Some inherent characteristics will not change with time and a modern British will always carry some legacies of the old times and some characteristics of hundreds years ago are as stubborn as the semaphore signal. This is also the charm of studying abroad.

Oh, British, even though they are wearing jeans and short skirts, laughing and unruly, but they still are ladies wrapped in veil and long dress from hundreds years.

 

[NoOnesFool]

is prolonged staring of a sexual manner.

How would you determine if it is of a sexual manner or not?