National Rail & British Transport Police campaign regarding sexual harassment on the Railway

[O L Leigh]

Because the response in a lot of cases round here would likely involve being told where to go, from what I’ve seen over the summer.

So to you, the "go to" response is to expect an accusation of sexual harassment...? I think that's a needlessly bleak interpretation of the situation. The police are unlikely to entertain frivolous accusations and nor is anyone likely to want to delay their journey to allow it to be sorted out.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The idea of asking someone to sit some where else is ridiculous given how crowded out trains are these days. It's a tad bit selfish to expect four seats to yourself in my opinion, regardless of the reason.

 

[py_megapixel]

The idea of asking someone to sit some where else is ridiculous given how crowded out trains are these days. It's a tad bit selfish to expect four seats to yourself in my opinion, regardless of the reason.

Have you been on a train recently... they aren't crowded compared to a couple of years ago, apart from some at popular leisure times (often the first off-peak departures for example)
They're reasonably well loaded, but not to the extent that one couldn't move to a different seat if asked.

 

[AlterEgo]

I see this thread is full of people who aren’t able to understand the nuances of human behaviour. No, nobody is going to arrest you for looking at scenery.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The idea of asking someone to sit some where else is ridiculous given how crowded out trains are these days. It's a tad bit selfish to expect four seats to yourself in my opinion, regardless of the reason.

Yes, .Iike my train to York today, it was rammed

And funnily enough, a woman sat with a group of men opposite my table looked and smiled at me (whoohoo...), can I report her for looking at me for longer than a quick glance?

 

[FGW_DID]

Yes, .Iike my train to York today, it was rammed

And funnily enough, a woman sat with a group of men opposite my table looked and smiled at me (whoohoo...), can I report her for looking at me for longer than a quick glance?

If the ‘staring‘ was unwelcome and you felt uncomfortable then yes, nothing to stop you reporting it. Just because it’s a woman doing it doesn’t make it right!

The fact most men probably wouldn’t report it and even if it’s just a very small number that do, then they shouldn’t be dismissed, which it seems some people on this thread are quite happy to!

 

[bramling]

So to you, the "go to" response is to expect an accusation of sexual harassment...? I think that's a needlessly bleak interpretation of the situation. The police are unlikely to entertain frivolous accusations and nor is anyone likely to want to delay their journey to allow it to be sorted out.

Potentially, yes.

Experience tells me there is a large enough core of people who are brazen enough to concoct anything if they think it might assist them in getting what they want.

I’ve seen it too many times now in various different settings, to the point where it makes me wary of anything which could be misused or abused.

 

[yorksrob]

Have you been on a train recently... they aren't crowded compared to a couple of years ago, apart from some at popular leisure times (often the first off-peak departures for example)
They're reasonably well loaded, but not to the extent that one couldn't move to a different seat if asked.

I'm not sure I'm keen on that idea. If all window seats are taken, I'll generally choose a bloke to sit next to, but if there aren't any noticeable, I'm not keen on the idea that random people feel it's acceptable to ask you not to sit next to them for the sake of their feelings.

The fact that trains are generally less crowded now than two years ago doesn't strike me as a reason to embed unreasonable behaviour.

That said, I've seen the advertising campaign and support it.

 

[ComUtoR]

I see this thread is full of people who aren’t able to understand the nuances of human behaviour.

There are certain members of society that are incapable of understanding those nuances. I would say that many on this forum tick those specific boxes.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I’d love to get you in to bed

Heard that one before.

looked and smiled at me (whoohoo...),

You're in there pal.

Anyone who is on a train whether it be a man or a woman should be able to sit where ever they like without being challenged. If someone doesn't like it then that's their problem, not the person who has just joined the train.

 

[py_megapixel]

There are certain members of society that are incapable of understanding those nuances. I would say that many on this forum tick those specific boxes.

There are two things you could possibly mean by that post. Firstly, it could be meant as an insult directed at large swathes of the forum's membership.

Secondly - and I hope it is this one - it could be a reminder to be mindful of the various 'neurodiverse' conditions - many of which are put in the category of Autism Spectrum Disorder - which, for those not aware, can lead to some people finding societal conventions and nuances confusing, and difficult or even anxiety-inducing to follow. Another trait commonly associated with ASD is having detailed interests which are often long-lasting and highly focussed - hence the likelihood that a large number of people fitting into that category would spend time on a forum such as this.

I am assuming it is that is the second. I certainly hope it is not both at once.

I would also welcome any correction to what I have written in that second paragraph. My intent is not to spread misinformation or cause offence.

 

[ComUtoR]

There are two things you could possibly mean by that post. Firstly, it could be meant as an insult directed at large swathes of the forum's membership.

Absolutely not.

Secondly - and I hope it is this one - it could be a reminder to be mindful of the various 'neurodiverse' conditions - many of which are put in the category of Autism Spectrum Disorder - which, for those not aware, can lead to some people finding societal conventions and nuances confusing, and difficult or even anxiety-inducing to follow. Another trait commonly associated with ASD is having detailed interests which are often long-lasting and highly focussed - hence the likelihood that a large number of people fitting into that category would spend time on a forum such as this.

Which is very much the case. Those "on the spectrum" often have hobbies such as 'Train Enthusiast' and those that tend to connect on forums also lean towards being 'on the spectrum'

I am assuming it is that is the second. I certainly hope it is not both at once.

Which has always been the problem with the written word, especially on forums. It is very easy to infer something that isn't intended. It is also something that those 'on the spectrum' have difficulties with. Which is why you get a lot of misunderstanding and pedantism.

 

[py_megapixel]

Absolutely not.

This is what I thought. I didn't personally infer anything bad from your post, but I understand that some could have done. I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, I just thought it was worth clarifying.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The idea of asking someone to sit some where else is ridiculous given how crowded out trains are these days. It's a tad bit selfish to expect four seats to yourself in my opinion, regardless of the reason.

I agree 100%. Good point.

 

[ComUtoR]

This is what I thought. I didn't personally infer anything bad from your post, but I understand that some could have done. I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, I just thought it was worth clarifying.

No issues for me, always happy to clarify.

Stay safe out there.

 

[bramling]

Heard that one before.

You're in there pal.

Anyone who is on a train whether it be a man or a woman should be able to sit where ever they like without being challenged. If someone doesn't like it then that's their problem, not the person who has just joined the train.

There are certain etiquette-based norms. For example most people would consider it rude to come and sit at someone else’s table if the rest of the carriage is empty. But there’s being mildly aggrieved when one’s perception is someone else has been rude, and there’s accusing them of harassment. Under no circumstances should the two ever become conflated.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Which is very much the case. Those "on the spectrum" often have hobbies such as 'Train Enthusiast' and those that tend to connect on forums also lean towards being 'on the spectrum'

I mean, I do find that a tad bit insulting. Just because I, like many others, are rail enthusiasts it doesn’t mean that were “on the spectrum”, also, putting into in speech marks makes it worse as it’s almost like it’s a taboo that you don’t want to say.

As someone who has grown up with an autistic brother, I do find it slightly insulting that you throw it about so lightly.

For the record, I am not autistic nor are most other rail enthusiasts, we just have hobbies and interests as do football fans, car fans etc.

 

[Journeyman]

I mean, I do find that a tad bit insulting. Just because I, like many others, are rail enthusiasts it doesn’t mean that were “on the spectrum”, also, putting into in speech marks makes it worse as it’s almost like it’s a taboo that you don’t want to say.

As someone who has grown up with an autistic brother, I do find it slightly insulting that you throw it about so lightly.

For the record, I am not autistic nor are most other rail enthusiasts, we just have hobbies and interests as do football fans, car fans etc.

It's funny how people who have a passionate interest in trains are assumed to be autistic, and those with an equally passionate interest in football aren't, but we're getting a bit OT here.

 

[ComUtoR]

As someone who has grown up with an autistic brother, I do find it slightly insulting that you throw it about so lightly.

My Son is Autistic.

 

[py_megapixel]

As someone who has grown up with an autistic brother, I do find it slightly insulting that you throw it about so lightly.

What exactly has been said that constitutes "throwing it around?"
@ComUtoR made the extremely valid and relevant point that some people - particularly autistic people - struggle with certain societal conventions.

I am fairly certain that I have never spoken to an autistic person who is of the view that they don't want society to be better educated about it and for more discussion to take place around it.

For the record, I am not autistic nor are most other rail enthusiasts, we just have hobbies and interests as do football fans, car fans etc.

If you think you have been labelled as autistic, you may wish to read the post again. "Autistic people are often train enthusiasts" does not mean "Train enthusiasts are autistic".
If I said "Buses are often a bright colour, such as red", you wouldn't think I was telling you that a red bicycle is a bus, would you?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

It's funny how people who have a passionate interest in trains are assumed to be autistic, and those with an equally passionate interest in football aren't, but we're getting a bit OT here.

That's because being passionate about trains is a niche compared to football, but it doesn't make it any less of a valid hobby. There was a time when (as we all know) trains spotting was a big deal and you were weird if you DIDN'T do it, now days people look at you as though you're an alien.

My Son is Autistic.

Well then you know the struggle.

 

[ComUtoR]

Well then you know the struggle.

I am acutely aware. I am also of the mind that treating people as different and keeping issues behind closed doors is hugely detrimental. Autistic people tend to gravitate towards certain hobbies, have very specific needs, act in weird and wonderful ways and generally do not fit to 'societal norms' I have long since accepted that he will act in a certain way. I don't try to hide it an any way and I don't use it as shield to hide behind or to take some sort of moral high ground.

I think that accepting people for who they are and understanding that those of a certain nature are predisposed to certain activities is part and parcel of who we ALL are in society. Part of understanding and accepting others comes from knowledge. I find Train spotting weird. Modern trains are a cut and paste job of each other but after talking to various Enthusiasts and understanding that some may be """ On the spectrum""" I have a much greater respect for those who have Train spotting as a hobby.

I studied Psychology and Sociology and one of the first concepts is to accept certain truths that we find difficult.

I would strongly suggest that those opposed to this poster campaign look deep inside and accept the concept that its about others and their perception rather than any kind of attack on men, society at large, and or any specific cultural norm.

Why do Autistic People LOVE Trains? - Autistic & Unapologetic

Everything you could ever need to know about why most autistic people love trains (delivered to you one shameless pun at a time).

autisticandunapologetic.com

What is it about autism and trains? | Autism Speaks

See how developmental pediatrician Amanda Bennett answers a question from parents about autism and trains.

www.autismspeaks.org

Why children with autism love trains (and the 10 best UK rail adventures for families)

I didn’t know it then, but my son’s love for trains was the first obvious clue to his autism.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Charlie Smythe]

What exactly has been said that constitutes "throwing it around?"
@ComUtoR made the extremely valid and relevant point that some people - particularly autistic people - struggle with certain societal conventions.

I am fairly certain that I have never spoken to an autistic person who is of the view that they don't want society to be better educated about it and for more discussion to take place around it.

The bit that bothers me most is the "on the spectrum"? Why the speech marks?

If he's going to say it, just say it, it's not a taboo and can be replaced by the far nice word, autistic.

If you think you have been labelled as autistic, you may wish to read the post again. "Autistic people are often train enthusiasts" does not mean "Train enthusiasts are autistic".
If I said "Buses are often a bright colour, such as red", you wouldn't think I was telling you that a red bicycle is a bus, would you?

I just don't get why someone would feel the need to label my hobby (which I am passionate about and am the first to jump to defend if I get hate in public when enjoying it. I have had to verbally defend myself many times at stations when out to see charters, as well as when being on the Dawlish sea wall) as something that is often done by those who are autisic in someway? Why does it matter, how is it related to this discussion in anyway?

Whether or not you agree with this BTP campagin has nothing to do with whether or not you are autistic, but rather whether or not you can see it being policeable, which is dividing opinions. Not a single person on here is doubting the seriousness of sexual harrassment on our trains, but some of us do doubt the rather stretched BTP's ability to do anything about it.

 

[py_megapixel]

I would strongly suggest that those opposed to this poster campaign look deep inside and accept the concept that its about others and their perception rather than any kind of attack on men, society at large, and or any specific cultural norm.

That's an excellent way of putting it.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I am acutely aware. I am also of the mind that treating people as different and keeping issues behind closed doors is hugely detrimental. Autistic people tend to gravitate towards certain hobbies, have very specific needs, act in weird and wonderful ways and generally do not fit to 'societal norms' I have long since accepted that he will act in a certain way. I don't try to hide it an any way and I don't use it as shield to hide behind or to take some sort of moral high ground.

I think that accepting people for who they are and understanding that those of a certain nature are predisposed to certain activities is part and parcel of who we ALL are in society. Part of understanding and accepting others comes from knowledge. I find Train spotting weird. Modern trains are a cut and paste job of each other but after talking to various Enthusiasts and understanding that some may be """ On the spectrum""" I have a much greater respect for those who have Train spotting as a hobby.

I studied Psychology and Sociology and one of the first concepts is to accept certain truths that we find difficult.

I would strongly suggest that those opposed to this poster campaign look deep inside and accept the concept that its about others and their perception rather than any kind of attack on men, society at large, and or any specific cultural norm.

That's fine, but as someone who helplessly watched their younger brother be bullied in school for years for the way he was while being able to do it very little to stop it being a pupil working alone, I will jump to defend autism if I think affect it can have is being insulted, mocked or underestimated. It's not personal, but when people say on the spectrum in writing in speechmarks or especially when they change the tone (higher or lower or put on a silly voice) when saying it in person, it really grinds my gears.

 

[Highlandspring]

Not a single person on here is doubting the seriousness of sexual harrassment on our trains

Well, one person is...

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Well, one person is...

When did I say it wasn't an issue? Do tell.

 

[Highlandspring]

When did I say it wasn't an issue? Do tell.

Not you, the original thread poster.

 

[bramling]

The bit that bothers me most is the "on the spectrum"? Why the speech marks?

If he's going to say it, just say it, it's not a taboo and can be replaced by the far nice word, autistic.

I just don't get why someone would feel the need to label my hobby (which I am passionate about and am the first to jump to defend if I get hate in public when enjoying it. I have had to verbally defend myself many times at stations when out to see charters, as well as when being on the Dawlish sea wall) as something that is often done by those who are autisic in someway? Why does it matter, how is it related to this discussion in anyway?

Whether or not you agree with this BTP campagin has nothing to do with whether or not you are autistic, but rather whether or not you can see it being policeable, which is dividing opinions. Not a single person on here is doubting the seriousness of sexual harrassment on our trains, but some of us do doubt the rather stretched BTP's ability to do anything about it.

Putting to one side the debate over the poster, in reality BTP likely won’t be doing much anyway. If the response is half-arsed for someone being punched in the face, then a report of someone staring probably isn’t going to be a priority either. In reality first line of response is likely to be railway staff.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Not you, the original poster.

Oh right, I do appolgise to yourself.