Need help £100 Standard Fare on TfGM

[C247]

Hi,

I need some advice if anyone can, I know this is railuk forums but I'm hoping someone can help me out understanding my situation and my options from my current standing point. I'll drop the standard fare ticket info just below. Also because I don't know where else to ask about this.

[Mod - redacted]

So on the 19th of December I got a ticket when I was coming back home after working a 15:30 till 21:30 shift at the Manchester Arndale. I got on the tram at the Market Street (MKT) Stop travelling to Northern Moor and I've been going to and from with return tickets for trams because of a seasonal job I started there on the 2nd of December.

So first of all, I catch the tram from my home area which is the Northern Moor (NMR) tram stop, but as I got to the tram stop that day I heard the announcement on the tannoy at the stop itself about delays to the tram at Shudehill and that they were not travelling via Market Street. Market Street is the stop that I would've gotten off off at so. I don't use trams that often and whenever I do I just check the map before leaving home so I know which tram to take for which specific stops.

The first few times I'd used the TfGM I'd bought paper based tickets from the machines at the stops, but since I saw the app I started buying those on the app as I got to the tram station because I heard you need to have one before you get on the tram. On this day however, I heard the announcement just as I was about to buy the ticket so I locked my phone right then and started wondering what to do as that was the only information I had on how to get there as I don't travel often by public transport. I saw that there's a bus stop almost directly at the northern moor tram stop so I checked that and saw that the 41 goes to Piccadilly gardens which I know is close to Market street. So I left the ticket in the basket, locked the phone and used the couple of pound and got a bus to Piccadilly Gardens. I forgot that I hadn’t purchased the ticket on the app as I paid by cash on bus. I got the trams 1 hour before my shift so I'd get to work 30 minutes before I needed to, so for example on 19th I was at the tram stop at 14:30 as I shift was at 15:30. It took me nearly an hour taking the bus instead and I was almost late to work because I had to figure out how to get there not using the tram.

After my shift, I walked to the Market Street Metrolink station, and out of habit because every shift I'd done since the beginning of December I would have already had a return ticket on the GetMeThere App, I got on the tram without remembering the afternoon earlier. A few stops later at Cornbrook, 3 Metrolink Officers got on asking for tickets. Because I didn't remember about the delays to the specific tram stops earlier I very nonchalantly thinking I had one, I unlocked my phone and opened up my GMT app only to realise that I hadn’t finished the purchase. Because I'd left it in the basket like I mentioned above, my phone was still on the same screen because I didn't touch my phone at work either. I informed one of the officers and he told me to get off the tram at the next stop which where his colleague would write me a ticket as I was liable for a £100 fine, so I did.

At the Trafford Bar (TFB) stop, the officer asked me all of my details and I described the situation to him and why I didn’t have a ticket. He told me that it's the first time I've made an error like this and he advised me to appeal after I showed him my history of purchases using the app as well. So I don't and never have dodged paying fares to go onto trams before. In fact, I've even made the mistake multiple times of accidentally buying off peak tickets on the app thinking they were valid as I still don't know when the peak times start, and had to buy a second ticket right then and there so that it activated before I got on the tram. I can't even get the incorrect ticket money back because it'd done on the app and I frankly don't know how so I just let it go. Basically he told me that he can't guarantee that they'll revoke the standard fare charge of £100, but the circumstances allow me a good change.

After the officer signed on the back of the ticket when I asked if I needed to repay for another ticket to get back home, and he told me to just use the ticket, which I did. All the officers travelled to exactly the stop I was going, which made me feel like they were watching me and me only. During this journey they never asked anyone else for tickets even when they got on the next tram with me. Anyway, I got back home and just past midnight I sent an appeal via email to the email address on the back of the ticket to which I instantly got a reply they received it and the day counter for paying the fine has been put on hold until I get a decision.

The appeal result came back yesterday on the 7th of December, and frankly I'm really angry because it feels like they never considered the factors of the delay on the day and my habit of buying return tickets. They sent a negative response to my appeal. I'll attach a screen capture of the email I got.

As I'm not jobless since the 5th, I woke up just as the notification came and called them up soon after on the number given. I was told by the lady on the phone that I'd still have to pay for the standard fare because the decision is final. I asked her for a number to call for the appeals team. She gave me an extension number which I've tried around 10 times in total since yesterday during the times they should be active, but it rings constantly for 5 minutes until it cuts off saying that the person on the other side can't pick up the phone. I really don't have the money to pay for this as I've just lost my job and I feel like it's the metrolink's delay that threw me off on that day for such a mistake to happen from me. The lady on the phone kept telling me that they'll look at the appeal and all the circumstances but I really don't feel like they did.

Any advice to how I can sort this out please? Should I take this to court as I really don't feel like I should've been fined for a first offence under such circumstances for someone who always pays for his tram tickets? Will I have any ground to stand on? What will they do if I tell them I can't pay for it as I've just lost my job on the 5th? I would just simply like to have the £100 fine revoked.

Thanks.

 

[island]

Unfortunately you don’t have a leg to stand on. Even though it was an accident, you didn’t buy a ticket and the standard fare was correctly issued. Your history of buying a ticket on previous occasions doesn’t help, I’m afraid. You now need to pay the amount of £100 promptly to avoid prosecution.

 

[gray1404]

I would try to pay this within the time frame given. It may be worth you calling back again and saying that you would like to pay the £100 but would they be willing to come to a payment arrangement in light of your current situation. They are under no duty to offer such an arrangement but there is no harm in asking. It is really important if they agree that you stick to any such arrangement and if they say no then you pay the £100 within the 21 days given.

 

[C247]

Hm, thanks for the advice guys. I'll give a shot to asking requesting for a reduction of the fine.

Also thanks a LOT to the mod that took the time to edit everything sensitive out. Very helpful forum mods.

 

[gray1404]

I HIGHLY doubt they will offer a reduction as the £100 is set down in their regulations and they take a hard stance. I think what you could be asking for is to come to a payment arrangement or payment plan. This is when you either pay in installments over an agreed period of time or are given longer to pay under the circumstances. However, they are under no duty to offer such and I would be surprised if they did. There is no harm in asking though. However, if they refuse you must ensure the £100 is paid within the 21 days to avoid the matter going to court.

 

[js1000]

Your best bet is explaining the circumstances and hoping they might feel lenient. Given it is the first time you've been caught without a ticket and you have recently become unemployed they may reduce the fine or allow it to be paid in installments - although they are under no legal obligation to do this.

But as Gray1404 says you have been caught and they would expect you to pay some sort of fine to make up for this.

Hopefully, my reply (and gray1404) is less robotic and more helpful. I understand you may not be in a position to "promptly" pay the fine but please don't ignore the fare as it will not simply go away/they will forget about it.

 

[C247]

Your best bet is explaining the circumstances and hoping they might feel lenient. Given it is the first time you've been caught without a ticket and you have recently become unemployed they may reduce the fine or allow it to be paid in installments - although they are under no legal obligation to do this.

But as Gray1404 says you have been caught and they would expect you to pay some sort of fine to make up for this.

Hopefully, my reply (and gray1404) is less robotic and more helpful. I understand you may not be in a position to "promptly" pay the fine but please don't ignore the fare as it will not simply go away/they will forget about it.

I'm helpful to all advice here it's cool. I was on the phone yesterday for like 30 minutes trying to explain all of my circumstances as to me it felt like they didn't even consider anything and the lady herself reiterated multiple times that I'd just have to pay the fine. So I thought I'll ask around for advice.

Thanks guys. I'll update when I've gotten a solution.

 

[gray1404]

I think the outcome you might have come across as looking for yesterday was for them to cancel the standard fare of £100. Whereas if you try again you will come across that you accept the £100 standard fare and the outcome of your appeal and what you are asking for is to agree a payment arrangement due to your mitigating circumstances.

Did you 21 day payment window stop while your appeal was being considered? If so, until what date do you have to pay the standard fare? If you have no joy over the phone, I do think you need to try again calling them now you are taking a different approach, then it may be worth emailing to ask (or a letter). However, if you do not hear back from them by the time of your payment deadline you must ensure you do not exceed this date.

In the mean time, it may be worth having a think about how you can raise the £100 required if they are not willing to offer you any alternative option.

 

[furlong]

(If you had paid within 14 days you'd have saved yourself £50.)

 

[gray1404]

(If you had paid within 14 days you'd have saved yourself £50.)

I thought that £100 seemed to be rather high and wondered why there hadn't been mention of a discount for paying sooner.

 

[gray1404]

I am trying to work the dates out.

Standard Fare issued 19 December
Appeal submitted 20 December - clock stopped for time to pay
Appeal outcome dated 7 January - clock to pay restated

Does that mean then that you have until 26 January to pay the £100? If there is a £50 reduction for payment within 14 days and the clock was stopped while the appeal was being considered then does that mean if you pay by 19 January you only have to pay £50?

 

[Haywain]

Does that mean then that you have until 26 January to pay the £100? If there is a £50 reduction for payment within 14 days and the clock was stopped while the appeal was being considered then does that mean if you pay by 19 January you only have to pay £50?

To quote the TfGM website (here: https://tfgm.com/public-transport/tram/fare-evasion-standard-fare)

The standard fare is £100, but if you pay within 14 days it is reduced to £50.

 

[najaB]

Does that mean then that you have until 26 January to pay the £100? If there is a £50 reduction for payment within 14 days and the clock was stopped while the appeal was being considered then does that mean if you pay by 19 January you only have to pay £50?

Does appealing stop the clock? It doesn't with TOC-issued Penalty Fares as far as I know.

 

[furlong]

Does appealing stop the clock? It doesn't with TOC-issued Penalty Fares as far as I know.

On the contrary, it always does with TOC-issued Penalty Fares (until 14 days after the appeal is decided), but there's no reason to think it does with TfGM.

 

[js1000]

Worth checking out. £50 is a lot less than £100.

I'm helpful to all advice here it's cool. I was on the phone yesterday for like 30 minutes trying to explain all of my circumstances as to me it felt like they didn't even consider anything and the lady herself reiterated multiple times that I'd just have to pay the fine. So I thought I'll ask around for advice.

Thanks guys. I'll update when I've gotten a solution.

Wasn't a criticism of you. Just some on here assume everyone can pay promptly without having read what the OP was and their circumstances.

 

[najaB]

On the contrary, it always does with TOC-issued Penalty Fares (until 14 days after the appeal is decided), but there's no reason to think it does with TfGM.

I thought it stopped any further action from being taken (e.g. court action) but you lost any discount for early payment.

 

[island]

On the contrary, it always does with TOC-issued Penalty Fares (until 14 days after the appeal is decided), but there's no reason to think it does with TfGM.

This is a Standard Fare rather than a Penalty Fare.

 

[C247]

I am trying to work the dates out.

Standard Fare issued 19 December
Appeal submitted 20 December - clock stopped for time to pay
Appeal outcome dated 7 January - clock to pay restated

Does that mean then that you have until 26 January to pay the £100? If there is a £50 reduction for payment within 14 days and the clock was stopped while the appeal was being considered then does that mean if you pay by 19 January you only have to pay £50?

I believe this is the case. I did call earlier just to confirm whether this will leave a mark as a criminal record or not. I was told it won't leave a criminal record. I then asked if the reduction on fare is a thing and they confirmed that I have till the end of next week if I wanted it to be reduced to £50. Half the amount and yet it's still a lot of money. The appeal did stop the clock on the fine dates. I did however forget to ask about the instalments because I needed to help someone else during the day.

It's definite that one way or another I still have to pay for this. Ugh. It was quite embarrassing as I try not to let this kind of stuff happen, but being a human allows for making mistakes. Just really terrible that the situation, context and circumstances don't get accounted into the appeal as they follow the by-law on TfGM.

I feel like they take advantage of honest people. I've had letters to my house before under someone else's name telling my to pay fines for metrolink... people that have never lived at the address. The inconsistency of this system in how other people seem to have somehow gotten away with just telling them fake or random addresses. It's ludicrous.

This is a Standard Fare rather than a Penalty Fare.

What's the different if I may ask?

 

[gray1404]

I think you need to place any thought about the injustice of this to one side just for the moment. It will cloud your judgement.

Right you need to pay the £50 by the deadline they have stated. I would not even bother asking them if you can pay in installments. If you have not paid it within their 14 days deadline it will increase to £100 with only an additional 7 days to pay. If paying £50 is difficult then £100 will be even worse. There there any way you could borrow the £50 from a friend or put it on a credit card (if they accept credit card payments) that will give you additional time to pay as long as you pay it off on time. Failing that do you have access to an overdraft short term? I would not normally advocate such measures but I know not everyone just has access to money just like that.

However, please do not let the opportunity to only pay £50 pass - it reduces the standard fare by 50% and it keeps the matter out of court thus avoiding any charges, possible criminal record and a fine and costs, which will be to a much higher amount then this. I really do not think they will agree to installments to the reduced amount, if at all.

 

[Starmill]

I wouldn't advise using the bus from Northern Moor to Piccadilly without leaving longer than an hour before you must arrive, if you're going to work with a crucial start time. Even accounting for 5 minutes walk from Exchange Square up to Market Street it would have been quicker to use the tram.

I also don't see the benefit of mobile tickets, unless you were using one of the special offer £1 tickets which were mobile only. A paper ticket from the machine is the same price, and won't run out of battery or stop working if you drop it.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I believe this is the case. I did call earlier just to confirm whether this will leave a mark as a criminal record or not. I was told it won't leave a criminal record. I then asked if the reduction on fare is a thing and they confirmed that I have till the end of next week if I wanted it to be reduced to £50. Half the amount and yet it's still a lot of money. The appeal did stop the clock on the fine dates. I did however forget to ask about the instalments because I needed to help someone else during the day.

It's definite that one way or another I still have to pay for this. Ugh. It was quite embarrassing as I try not to let this kind of stuff happen, but being a human allows for making mistakes. Just really terrible that the situation, context and circumstances don't get accounted into the appeal as they follow the by-law on TfGM.

I feel like they take advantage of honest people. I've had letters to my house before under someone else's name telling my to pay fines for metrolink... people that have never lived at the address. The inconsistency of this system in how other people seem to have somehow gotten away with just telling them fake or random addresses. It's ludicrous.


What's the different if I may ask?

Unfortunately if they allowed the circumstances of every passenger to mean that they were let off, people would not 'learn' the lesson the hard way. As you are now having to come up with £50, they have been effective inasmuch as you almost certainly won't forget to check you have a valid ticket before boarding again!

 

[C247]

I think you need to place any thought about the injustice of this to one side just for the moment. It will cloud your judgement.
...
However, please do not let the opportunity to only pay £50 pass - it reduces the standard fare by 50% and it keeps the matter out of court thus avoiding any charges, possible criminal record and a fine and costs, which will be to a much higher amount then this. I really do not think they will agree to installments to the reduced amount, if at all.

Indeed, as it's the only option left so I will just have to try and pay the £50. Thanks again.

I wouldn't advise using the bus from Northern Moor to Piccadilly without leaving longer than an hour before you must arrive, if you're going to work with a crucial start time. Even accounting for 5 minutes walk from Exchange Square up to Market Street it would have been quicker to use the tram.

I also don't see the benefit of mobile tickets, unless you were using one of the special offer £1 tickets which were mobile only. A paper ticket from the machine is the same price, and won't run out of battery or stop working if you drop it.

As I mentioned in the OP, I couldn't think of any other way to get there. I'd already left an hour seeing as I've never had to deal with tram delays or route changes before. My routine was to get to work 30 minutes before my shift and eat something from Gregg's. My other option at the time in my head was defaulting to a taxi which would've cost me a hell of a lot of money.

I can now see there's exchange square right next to Manchester Arndale which is where I worked. On the day it wasn't going through either Market Street or Shudehill. Which means Piccadilly Gardens was the default my brain could think of for the bus, it was however still going through St.Peter's Square which according to maps is 10 minutes walk away from Arndale. The last time I've used a bus to go to Piccadilly was probably back in 2011-12.

Mobile tickets for me are easier as I never have my phone die on me due to charging my phone every night before bed. If I take trains I always take screenshots of my train tickets too and save them locally. I used to work at Emirates and learned from watching other people make mistakes of losing connection or battery so I've never had to deal with that. I used to constantly have to issue paper based boarding cards to passengers even if I saw them using phones. In fact, I usually have 0 cash on me so I was VERY lucky to have had some in my wallet on the day. Another benefit is that I don't have to carry other extra paper-card in my pockets and make sure they don't slip out when I'm pulling something else out of my pockets too, I've lost cash and bus tickets in the past just like that. Everything in one place.

Wearing clothes and jackets that I use a dedicated pocket for keys, wallets, phones so I don't accidentally pull something else out. I've learned from mistakes over time (even from watching others) and I hope you can see I generally try to be very careful with things, but mistakes can still be made.

Unfortunately if they allowed the circumstances of every passenger to mean that they were let off, people would not 'learn' the lesson the hard way. As you are now having to come up with £50, they have been effective inasmuch as you almost certainly won't forget to check you have a valid ticket before boarding again!

What I meant was that the tram getting delayed was the mess up which threw my mind off the regularity as I usually buy return tickets to not have to worry about it through the rest of the day. Otherwise clearly I would've checked before getting on the tram at night after work. I had even forgotten during the work day that I took the bus over because Christmas time at the GAME store is extremely populated and busy as a retail environment. It just never occurred to me. Like I said, I wish they took the delay and the busy day, and the complications to tram travel which is my main mode of public transport into consideration, but as quite a few of you have said it's clearly all my mistake... and none Metrolink's as they've got the rules in place. So thanks.

P.S. This thread can be closed by a mod now. I've received all the advice and I thank all you guys for contributing. I think I can manage to pay the £50 before the end of next week.

 

[js1000]

However, please do not let the opportunity to only pay £50 pass - it reduces the standard fare by 50% and it keeps the matter out of court thus avoiding any charges, possible criminal record and a fine and costs, which will be to a much higher amount then this. I really do not think they will agree to installments to the reduced amount, if at all.

I can't see an argument based upon any evidence (for example you had actually purchased a ticket prior to boarding on the date & time in question but your phone died or forgot season ticket at home etc) or an incorrect procedure (i.e. revenue inspector writing down wrong details, not asking if you actually were in possession of a ticket first even though you did etc) that would revoke the fine.

When you got off the tram they specifically requested to see your ticket and you didn't have one. £50 is the best you're going to get. They aren't going to revoke it and they have your details so will probably pursue through the courts.

I agree with gray1404, afraid it's a case of biting the bullet. Sorry

 

[tony_mac]

You can certainly be prosecuted for non-payment, it's a regular occurence (as in, thousands have been).
For a few examples, see
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...trolinks-12-worst-fare-dodgers-hauled-9406565
Note that, according to that article, some people have been allowed to pay in installments, but there is no guarantee that they still do that.

"Standard" fares, like this, have been around for decades. As the OP obviously isn't going to be able to change the system, then complaints about it aren't helping him/her.

 

[js1000]

I cannot advise anything other than simply paying the £50 fine and moving on. I don't recommend the OP ignores the fine or commences a futile fight in the courts. There is no evidence or mitigating circumstances that would back up any claim.

 

[bb21]

Discussion about the legality of "Standard Fare" offers no real immediately useful advice to the OP so has been hived off to this thread.

May I remind all contributors that you must ensure any advice posted in the disputes area of the forum is strictly correct to the best of your knowledge. People seeking help on the forum are not guinea pigs for you to test out your legal theories or hypothesis on. It can unnecessarily cost them huge sums of money if you get it wrong.

If you need to discuss your theories off on a tangent, please open a separate thread in a suitable area of the forum. Thank you.

 

[185]

Because I didn't remember about the delays to the specific tram stops earlier I very nonchalantly thinking I had one, I unlocked my phone and opened up my GMT app only to realise that I hadn’t finished the purchase.

Worth noting that even if you had then proceeded to buy the ticket rather than be honest and admit not buying it, the Recently Purchased marker would be indicated and many inspectors would still issue a fine for C-Invalid Ticket - app ticket not purchased at the point of boarding.

Do note the standard fare timescale pauses at the point the email is sent, and the 14-day time window where it's £50 only resumes when an unsuccessful reply from RRS is received. Pay by phone if your not sure, 0161 202 0955.

 

[pdsalford]

If you regularly commute by Metrolink. particularly on the Airport line, I recommend developing a strategy for coping with delays, they're remarkably frequent.

 

[Bungle965]

If you regularly commute by Metrolink. particularly on the Airport line, I recommend developing a strategy for coping with delays, they're remarkably frequent.

The Airport line managed 86% PPM from the last performance statistics available, only just avoiding being the worst line on the network (That award going to the Eccles line). It would seem that the main problem that comes up time and time again on that line is cars straying onto tram tracks.
Sam

 

[pdsalford]

The Airport line managed 86% PPM from the last performance statistics available, only just avoiding being the worst line on the network (That award going to the Eccles line). It would seem that the main problem that comes up time and time again on that line is cars straying onto tram tracks.
Sam

I'm amazed the figure is that high, it's rare a day goes by without Citymapper highlighting a delay on that line. The whole network could do with fitting car-crushers on the front of trams to reduce delays!