NET Extension

[kevjs]

But there just isn't the demand for it, and the route is better served by the railway. Of those current two trains per hour, both of them continue on to Norwich and Skegness, so you'd end up with six trains/trams an hour, unless you're going to suggest we run a tram to Skegness instead?

However if the proposed housing developments ever materialised Newton and Bingham will become one large conurbation with the A52 as there main link into Nottingham so something will end up needing to be done. Either a pure light rail NET or a tram train NET would be ideal for this unless you want to put more an more cars onto the road...

As it stands currently Bingham has a very frequent bus service which gets stuck in all the rush hour traffic and a County Council that doesn't run any buses to a useful destination (i.e. Nottingham), Bingham or Saxondale P&R (again long proposed) would make an ideal link for these buses to go to...

 

[HSTEd]

But there just isn't the demand for it, and the route is better served by the railway. Of those current two trains per hour, both of them continue on to Norwich and Skegness, so you'd end up with six trains/trams an hour, unless you're going to suggest we run a tram to Skegness instead?

Honestly I would probably cut the Skeggy train back to Grantham in Platform 3 in Winter, and run it through in place of one of the trams in Summer.
Or just run 2 trams per alongside with the existing trains.

The current timetable places the two trains only 15 minutes apart, so running two trams opposite them would produce a nice 4 train per hour timetable.

And "better served by the railway" which can't avoid repeated crush loadings, can't provide a proper half hourly timetable, let alone a quarter hourly one and renders public transport less than attractive for trips to Nottingham.

With the death of the Grantham high street I believe there to be major suppressed demand on the line.
And partial or total tramification would enable a station to be positioned in the housing estate immediately south of the tunnel entrance in Gonerby Hill Foot, after all the entire area between Great Gonerby and Barrowby is chalked up for development.

Considering the cost of a tram stop in journey times is drastically under a minute thanks to the relatively low speeds and absurd accelerations then stops serving villages becomes a less absurd prospect.
Any lengthening of journey times would be more than offset from time savings from the doubled frequency to 4 trams/trains per hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bingham to Grantham (exclusive) has no more than villages, which could probably justify an hourly stopping service but no more than that.

Bottesford is a bit on the big side for a village, several thousand people. Considering the low cost of stopping electric high acceleration vehicles there it would probably justify multiple vehicles per hour.
And better public transport does have a developmental effect. Even Aslockton would probably justify trams stopping given the very short time it takes to stop with an all axles motored vehicle.

In terms of generating modal shift hourly trains have been shown to be effectively worthless. Perhaps it would be better to just cut them all to Parliamentaries and admit that it is not considered worthwhile to serve them properly.

 

[Robertj21a]

Honestly I would probably cut the Skeggy train back to Grantham in Platform 3 in Winter, and run it through in place of one of the trams in Summer.
Or just run 2 trams per alongside with the existing trains.

The current timetable places the two trains only 15 minutes apart, so running two trams opposite them would produce a nice 4 train per hour timetable.

And "better served by the railway" which can't avoid repeated crush loadings, can't provide a proper half hourly timetable, let alone a quarter hourly one and renders public transport less than attractive for trips to Nottingham.

With the death of the Grantham high street I believe there to be major suppressed demand on the line.
And partial or total tramification would enable a station to be positioned in the housing estate immediately south of the tunnel entrance in Gonerby Hill Foot, after all the entire area between Great Gonerby and Barrowby is chalked up for development.

Considering the cost of a tram stop in journey times is drastically under a minute thanks to the relatively low speeds and absurd accelerations then stops serving villages becomes a less absurd prospect.
Any lengthening of journey times would be more than offset from time savings from the doubled frequency to 4 trams/trains per hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Bottesford is a bit on the big side for a village, several thousand people. Considering the low cost of stopping electric high acceleration vehicles there it would probably justify multiple vehicles per hour.
And better public transport does have a developmental effect. Even Aslockton would probably justify trams stopping given the very short time it takes to stop with an all axles motored vehicle.

In terms of generating modal shift hourly trains have been shown to be effectively worthless. Perhaps it would be better to just cut them all to Parliamentaries and admit that it is not considered worthwhile to serve them properly.

The Bottesford I know is little more than a village, with limited need for public transport of any type. Even some of the local bus services were reduced not long ago.

 

[LowLevel]

Bottesford provides more rail passengers per year than Bingham despite having a much more sporadic service. It's pretty busy.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

The level of train service at Bottesford is, like the villages bus service, neglected, for a simple reason. The village is in the extreme north of the county of Leicestershire, and looks more to Nottingham & Grantham for its services. It is the only stop on the Poacher line not in Nottinghamshire or Lincolnshire. Nottinghamshire County Council has obviously made a strong case for an enhanced service and Bingham, whilst the County Council in Leicester probably has little time or inclination to spend money on a 'remote' outpost of its 'empire' when that money is going to be spent with residents travelling out of county.

 

[LTJ87]

East Midlands Councils and NET are looking into options to extend the tram to Derby:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-36396280

 

[kevjs]

East Midlands Councils and NET are looking into options to extend the tram to Derby:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-36396280

Looks a bit daft on it's own, BUT if HS2 Toton happens then it's an entirely sensible proposition - hopefully not to the detriment of faster/direct services from Nottingham/Derby to HS2 Toton

 

[Haydn1971]

A heavy rail solution would be much better for that distance

 

[nottinghamcity]

To me this demonstrates the folly of the Toton HS2 proposal. Adding 30 odd minutes (which realistically is what it will be) plus up to 10 minutes connection time. The Midland mainline remains a very strong contender.

 

[ashworth]

To me this demonstrates the folly of the Toton HS2 proposal. Adding 30 odd minutes (which realistically is what it will be) plus up to 10 minutes connection time. The Midland mainline remains a very strong contender.

I can't see a tram link from either Nottingham or Derby to Toton having fast enough timings to be of any benefit over the MML from large parts of both cities. By the time that you have travelled out to Toton, waited for your connection and boarded the HS2 train, you could already be well south of Leicester on the MML.
I read an article the other week that was saying that the usefulness of HS2 to Nottingham and Derby has been greatly over estimated especially if travel on HS2 is going to be more expensive.
I can, however, see HS2 being used by passengers from the western suburbs of Nottingham and eastern suberbs of Derby and also those along the Notts/Derby border who have easy access to the M1. I do also wonder that with the improvements to the A453 areas of Nottingham to the south of the Trent like Clifton and West Bridgford will still find it quicker to travel from East Midlands Parkway.

 

[HSTEd]

Why would travel on HS2 be more expensive? The railway wants passengers to transfer as it is cheaper to run on HS2 than the classic one. They will flood the market with cheap tickets to that end

 

[ashworth]

Why would travel on HS2 be more expensive? The railway wants passengers to transfer as it is cheaper to run on HS2 than the classic one. They will flood the market with cheap tickets to that end

Travel on HS1 is certainly more expensive than travelling on classic routes. Journeys from London to Kent are a good few pounds more expensive on HS1 and they certainly have not flooded the market with cheap tickets there. The cheaper tickets are not available for travel on HS1.

 

[edwin_m]

I do also wonder that with the improvements to the A453 areas of Nottingham to the south of the Trent like Clifton and West Bridgford will still find it quicker to travel from East Midlands Parkway.

I suspect enough of the car-borne catchment will find Toton just as easily accessible and with a faster train service to London, that it will no longer be worth stopping the fast trains at East Midlands Parkway. This will of course take another two or three minutes out of the MML timings London to Derby and Nottingham, further increasing their attractiveness relative to changing at Toton.

 

[kevjs]

I can't see a tram link from either Nottingham or Derby to Toton having fast enough timings to be of any benefit over the MML from large parts of both cities. By the time that you have travelled out to Toton, waited for your connection and boarded the HS2 train, you could already be well south of Leicester on the MML.

That's assuming you are already at Nottingham or Derby. For those in the Eastern Suburbs of Derby or Western Suburbs of Nottingham Toton HS2 would be just as quick, if not quicker to access than the classic stations. It's also pretty fair to assume that a new station and LRT links there would encourage a lot of housing development in the surrounding area too.

That's not to mention the proposed Heavy Rail Shuttles between the three stations which appear to be in addition to the LRT links.

http://www.emcouncils.gov.uk/write/HS2_Papers_-_25.05.16.pdf

 

[HSTEd]

Travel on HS1 is certainly more expensive than travelling on classic routes. Journeys from London to Kent are a good few pounds more expensive on HS1 and they certainly have not flooded the market with cheap tickets there. The cheaper tickets are not available for travel on HS1.

HS1 is a different kettle of fish however.
HS1 was justified by CTRL and Urban renewal, not by an actual market for domestic services.

HS2 will have a huge amount of spare capacity and it is politically important that it be shown to be a runaway success.
And HS1 competes against slow high capacity trains, HS2 does not.

 

[kevjs]

Hmm, interesting couple of changes to the rail network the county council were looking at in the 1990s before going all in on the tram which I read in "The Nottingham & Melton Railway 1872 - 2004" by "Colin Aldworth"

1. ~1985-1989 - Reconnection of the Nottingham to Melton line to shorten the journey time on the new sprinter services between the North West and East Anglia. "one route which wouldn't need a new river bridge was the still-open Cotgrave Branch and local politicians started promoting such a route in 1989 proposing a new line from Cotgrave to Widmerpool ... the aim was both to ... restore services to Melton, and to provide a station in Cotgrave.
2. Grand Plans - October 1992 (very similar to a suggestion I made earlier in this thread) Notts CC and Regional Railways - There were plans to extend the Robin Hood Line ... and to open stations at Long Eaton Town, Sandiacre, Ilkeston, Wollaton, and Saxondale... and in the medium term build a 4-mile like from Cotgrave to Widmerepool...

Does anyone have any more details on those plans as they (maybe less so Cotgrave now the tracks lifted, although the borough council now own the track bed) sound like practical "extensions" to NET (either Heavy Rail or Tram Train)...

 

[edwin_m]

There was also an idea being floated sometime in the early 2000s to shorten the distance by rail into Nottingham from the south and avoid the junctions around Trent by returning the GCR route northwards from Loughborough to the national network but diverging somewhere south of Ruddington to pick up the Cotgrave branch or maybe a new road plus rail crossing at Gamston, as an alternative route into Nottingham. I think there was talk of linking the Melton line into this too. This was in a strategy from one or more of the councils, which was on the Internet at the time but probably isn't now (Google doesn't appear to bring up anything relevant).

The viaduct at the junction of the Cotgrave branch with the main line is tightly curved and single track, and trains going into Nottingham can't get up any speed between there and Midland station due to various restrictions, so I doubt there would be much journey time saving compared with going via Trent.