Network North Electrification Projects

[Bald Rick]

as we’re in S&C fantasy land, the obvious solution is to wire from Appleby to Garsdale, centred on the 33kV DNO feed at Kirkby Stephen, giving a 20 mile / 25 minute recharge opportunity, and 2 x 30ish mile / 40 ish minute stretches off the wire. Well within the capability of existign battery units.

Although I do agree with @HSTEd that the most effective solution would be a big battery, combined with a long layover at Carlisle. 1MWh would do it for a 2 car unit, about 10 tonnes worth of LiTo battery pack.

 

[Elecman]

Also as speed is limited you have circa 20 miles downhill either side of Aisgill summit where regen braking to hold the train at linespeed would also pack a fair charge back into the batteries

 

[Geeves]

In the next four or five years in the automotive sector solid state batteries are penciled in. The technology certainly seems impressive. I wonder what sort of range and power you're looking at when you scale it up to the size of a locomotive?

Toyota Reveals Solid-State EV Battery with 745-Mile Range, Cuts Emissions by 39%

Toyota says its solid-state battery offer 745 mile range and 10-minute charging time, and can cut the carbon emissions of EV batteries by 39%.

carboncredits.com

 

[InTheEastMids]

In the next four or five years in the automotive sector solid state batteries are penciled in. The technology certainly seems impressive. I wonder what sort of range and power you're looking at when you scale it up to the size of a locomotive?

Toyota Reveals Solid-State EV Battery with 745-Mile Range, Cuts Emissions by 39%

Toyota says its solid-state battery offer 745 mile range and 10-minute charging time, and can cut the carbon emissions of EV batteries by 39%.

carboncredits.com

Off topic but I wouldn't pay too much attention to Toyota PR on this topic as for them, solid state batteries have been 5 years away for well over 10 years now (link below is to a 2011 story about Toyota commercialising sold state batteries from 2015).

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/10/toyota-20111019.html

But the general idea that batteries will get better is sound, meaning that it's better start with the shorter distance routes for battery trains

 

[Chris 76]

as we’re in S&C fantasy land,

Shouldn't this thread be in 'Speculative Discussion'? Keep 'Infrastructure and Stations' for schemes which are under construction, or at least have approval, funding, and a timescale for implementation.

 

[deltic08]

as we’re in S&C fantasy land, the obvious solution is to wire from Appleby to Garsdale, centred on the 33kV DNO feed at Kirkby Stephen, giving a 20 mile / 25 minute recharge opportunity, and 2 x 30ish mile / 40 ish minute stretches off the wire. Well within the capability of existign battery units.

Although I do agree with @HSTEd that the most effective solution would be a big battery, combined with a long layover at Carlisle. 1MWh would do it for a 2 car unit, about 10 tonnes worth of LiTo battery pack.

The reason I suggested extending electrification from Skipton to Blea Moor and from Carlisle to Appleby is that Appleby to Blea Moor is also 35ish miles/40 minutes in time for battery operation. This would leave the most scenic part free of masts and wires,
Alternatively, electrify both lines from Carlisle to Armathwaite and uphill lines from Ormside and Hellifield to Ais Gill to allow regen braking down hill to charge batteries.
Would freight trains still be diesel hauled or at best electric/diesel bimodes and not electric/battery?

 

[eldomtom2]

and freight remains diesel hauled?

I note that the "batteries for everything" crowd have avoided answering this question...

 

[jonesy3001]

Why don't they extend the wires from skipton to carnforth saving on loco drags between northern allerton and skipton depots.
All speculation, the daft say one thing and cancel it the next.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I note that the "batteries for everything" crowd have avoided answering this question...

Well if capital for full electrification isn't forthcoming and it can't be done with batteries, then it'll come down to using sustainable fuels (eg hydrogen), offsets, negative emissions from other sectors or send it by road using battery electric trucks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why don't they extend the wires from skipton to carnforth saving on loco drags between northern allerton and skipton depots.
All speculation, the daft say one thing and cancel it the next.

Allerton to Skipton via Leeds will be possible when TRU is finished.
No need for wires across the fells.

 

[eldomtom2]

Well if capital for full electrification isn't forthcoming and it can't be done with batteries, then it'll come down to using sustainable fuels (eg hydrogen), offsets, negative emissions from other sectors or send it by road using battery electric trucks.

I suspect the last option. There will be little appetite for offsets, and hydrogen has severe hurdles to overcome.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Why don't they extend the wires from skipton to carnforth saving on loco drags between northern allerton and skipton depots.
All speculation, the daft say one thing and cancel it the next.

If only 'Network North' also proposed on reinstating the 23mile 'Little North Western' line through Ingleton then we might have had the line between Skipton and Clapham electrified which would have left the rest of the Bentham line as an 'in fill' job!

But sadly it wasn't to be!

 

[jonesy3001]

If only 'Network North' also proposed on reinstating the 23mile 'Little North Western' line through Ingleton then we might have had the line between Skipton and Clapham electrified which would have left the rest of the Bentham line as an 'in fill' job!

But sadly it wasn't to be!

It's all speculative, the daft say something that's happening in the north, folk get excited and build their hopes up and then BAM!, back to square one again.

 

[Djgr]

Can somebody please transfer this thread into the wildly speculative section? Or set up a fantasy one..

Does anybody believe anything this "government" says? I mean seriously..

Didn't Boris promise to reverse all the Beeching cuts?

 

[Bald Rick]

and freight remains diesel hauled?

well, yes, or Diesel hybrid (class 99), or awaiting development of battery electric hybrid locos. The latter is certainly possible, but not economical at present .

 

[Chris 76]

Can somebody please transfer this thread into the wildly speculative section? Or set up a fantasy one..

Does anybody believe anything this "government" says? I mean seriously..

Didn't Boris promise to reverse all the Beeching cuts?

yes, please move this generally silly thread to speculative-see my earlier post #95 Reopening the 'Little NW', electrifying Skipton-Carnforth..... get real!

I don't think even Boris Johnson promised to reverse 'all' Beeching Cuts. Most Beeching cuts were sensible and inevitable, so it would be an idiotic promise from any politician.

 

[snowball]

The speculative section already has half a dozen threads created as a result of Sunak's conference speech.

 

[zwk500]

I note that the "batteries for everything" crowd have avoided answering this question...

Freight goes to bi- or tri-mode options until there's sufficient electrification for conversion to Electric + last mile/'gap-filler' battery options. eg. Classes 88, 93, 99.

 

[eldomtom2]

Freight goes to bi- or tri-mode options until there's sufficient electrification for conversion to Electric + last mile/'gap-filler' battery options. eg. Classes 88, 93, 99.

So, in other words, batteries don't get us out of needing to string up wires.

 

[zwk500]

So, in other words, batteries don't get us out of needing to string up wires.

Indeed and nobody has suggested batteries are replacement for a national electrified railway. What they have suggested is that batteries might be used in the marginal places like quiet branch lines or freight links to avoid needing to electrify every last inch of the network.

 

[deltic08]

well, yes, or Diesel hybrid (class 99), or awaiting development of battery electric hybrid locos. The latter is certainly possible, but not economical at present .

Exactly, still diesels under the wires on lines not fully electrified. Why not fully electrify a line at a time with a clear freight flow and not peace meal? This will eliminate diesel locos and allow use of much simpler, lighter and cheaper to build and maintain electric only locos.
We still have 500 class 56s, 60s and 66s that still have years of life in them. Are we going to scrap these prematurely at great cost in favour of more much more expensive locos but still diesel operated off the wires?
For starters, electrify Felixstowe to Ipswich which would eliminate diesel locos on freight using the WCML and a change of traction at Ipswich. Next electrify to Ely and move the loco change to there on freight to the Midlands, Yorkshire and Northeast. Extend to Peterborough etc. Bimode passenger trains already on this route can also take advantage of the new wires. Unfortunately, the Government cannot or refuse to see this but is so obvious to others.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why not fully electrify a line at a time with a clear freight flow and not peace meal?

Because the business case is appalling.

For starters, electrify Felixstowe to Ipswich which would eliminate diesel locos on freight using the WCML

No, it wouldnt.

Unfortunately, the Government cannot or refuse to see this but is so obvious to others.

Its ‘obvious’ to those who dont understand economics, yes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can somebody please transfer this thread into the wildly speculative section? Or set up a fantasy one..
Does anybody believe anything this "government" says? I mean seriously..
Didn't Boris promise to reverse all the Beeching cuts?

I started this thread for a rational discussion on the electrification projects announced ("We will electrify...") by the Prime Minister on October 4.
I didn't expect a fantasy debate on lines totally separate from those announced.

You may not believe government announcements but it's all we have, until there is a change of government.
Don't you believe he actually cancelled HS2 Phase 2? - I'm sure he did.
There is, apparently, £36 billion to spend on the alternatives, of which, if you believe him, £1 billion is for North Wales electrification.

 

[eldomtom2]

Because the business case is appalling.

Can you expand on this point?

 

[Geeves]

Can you expand on this point?

In regards to Felixstowe at least, the majority of traffic heads across county rather than via London so you'd need to be putting up up wires via March, Lincoln and the various Midland routes. Multiple different routes, East Midlands Gateway would probably need wires too

 

[eldomtom2]

In regards to Felixstowe at least, the majority of traffic heads across county rather than via London so you'd need to be putting up up wires via March, Lincoln and the various Midland routes. Multiple different routes, East Midlands Gateway would probably need wires too

What do you suggest as the best route to take for freight electrification?

 

[Bald Rick]

Can you expand on this point?

What do you suggest as the best route to take for freight electrification?

We‘be done this before, but the London Gateway branch is the most sensible, followed by Felixtowe - Ipswich.


To pick up about appalling bbusiness cases - freight converting to electric saves the FOCs little in the way of costs, and costs NR net more (extra kit to operate). Electrifying a long route principally for the benefit of freight will have decarb benefits, but in the scheme of UK emmissions, it eont even register. The taxpayer will get far, far better Carbon reduction benefits from paying for improving home insulation, or heat pumps, or home generation systems,or ICE car scrappage, etc.

 

[superkev]

We‘be done this before, but the London Gateway branch is the most sensible, followed by Felixtowe - Ipswich.


To pick up about appalling bbusiness cases - freight converting to electric saves the FOCs little in the way of costs, and costs NR net more (extra kit to operate). Electrifying a long route principally for the benefit of freight will have decarb benefits, but in the scheme of UK emmissions, it eont even register. The taxpayer will get far, far better Carbon reduction benefits from paying for improving home insulation, or heat pumps, or home generation systems,or ICE car scrappage, etc.

Yes point taken about the low decab benefits ofcfreightvelectification but I think there is another benifit. Electrifying the major freight flows would with the use of much more powerful electic locos allow freight to better keep out of the way of passenger trains as well as hopefully run faster.
I wonder if a say 90mph 1000tonne frieght is practical. Certainly not with diseasel.
K

 

[jonesy3001]

They had a good route for freight but they ripped it up has they didn't want to change from 1500dc to 25kv.
Not believing anything the daft say about the railways in the north anymore.

 

[deltic08]

Because the business case is appalling.

Why are we electrifying at all then.

No, it wouldnt.

Please explain how electrifying Felixstowe-Ipswich would not eliminate diesel haulage on West Coast container trains? Are they still going to diesel haul under the wires to/from Felixstowe?

Its ‘obvious’ to those who dont understand economics, yes.

Why do you agree with me about Felixstowe-Ipswich in post #117 after insultingly questioning my understanding of economics?