New 4-tier system for England

[island]

Great evidence for keeping schools open and shutting down pubs/hospitality even further. Sigh.

A number of London boroughs (amongst others) have already started to shut down schools.

I'm due to travel to London on Friday, and London goes into Tier 3 on Wednesday.

Am I likely to be questioned?

I live in a Tier 2 area.

maybe. Police in several areas have been operating checkpoints and enquiring about reasons for travel. However, the regulations currently in force do not prohibit travel within England regardless of tier; you are within your rights to thank the police for their advice and continue on their way.

Does this apply to entering Scotland and Wales? I’ve lost track of all the parochial restrictions now, as has seemingly most of the population!

It is an offence for residents of elsewhere in the United Kingdom, or County Donegal in the ROI, to enter Scotland. Reasonable excuses apply, as to which see Schedule 7A to SSI 2020/344. Police Scotland may enforce this by fixed penalty notice, reporting to the procurator fiscal, or arrest.

It is an offence for anyone resident in a tier 3 area of England, or a tier 3 or 4 area of Scotland, or Northern Ireland, to enter Wales. Reasonable excuses apply, as to which see section 9 of SI 2020/W276. The Heddlu may enforce this by fixed penalty notice, reporting to the CPS, or arrest.

 

[C J Snarzell]

London going into Tier 3 from 23:59 tomorrow night.

Let's see whether Greater Manchester drops a tier this week.

I had a look at the Greater Manchester figures this afternoon. I live in the Wigan Borough which is just above the National average. Out of the ten local authorities Bury is the highest & Trafford is the lowest.

I'm predicting certainly Bury & Wigan will remain in Tier 3. I don't know if they will grant boroughs individual Tier status as everyone has been thrown under the Greater Manchester blanket. Therefore, Trafford might have to remain as Tier 3.

Hopefully, the human Jellyfish Andy Burnham will have the sense to keep his clap trap shut this time round instead of ridiculing his counterparts in Westminster.

CJ

 

[Mojo]

Parts of Herts affected:

Broxbourne
Hertsmere
Three Rivers
Wartford

This makes a mockery of the previous explanations for the reason why the entire of the County Council areas of Kent and Lincolnshire were added to Tier 3, given they have only added 4 of the 10 districts of Hertfordshire.

 

[joncombe]

This makes a mockery of the previous explanations for the reason why the entire of the County Council areas of Kent and Lincolnshire were added to Tier 3, given they have only added 4 of the 10 districts of Hertfordshire.

You are surprised the Government has changed policy again? You shouldn't be by now. Same as they are now reviewing the tiers weekly, not bi-weekly as previously communicated.

 

[kristiang85]

A number of London boroughs (amongst others) have already started to shut down schools.

But the government have specifically said not to.

 

[Ediswan]

This makes a mockery of the previous explanations for the reason why the entire of the County Council areas of Kent and Lincolnshire were added to Tier 3, given they have only added 4 of the 10 districts of Hertfordshire.

Though not Welwyn and Hatfield, which also borders Greater London. Must be a story there somewhere. Hopefully 'Wartford' was a typo

 

[DB]

Though not Welwyn and Hatfield, which also borders Greater London. Must be a story there somewhere. Hopefully 'Wartford' was a typo

Affluent area - wonder how many MPs and their advisors have houses there?

 

[Mojo]

Though not Welwyn and Hatfield, which also borders Greater London. Must be a story there somewhere. Hopefully 'Wartford' was a typo

Would have been interesting if Three Rivers was still Tier 2 given the number of streets where immediate neighbours, and at least one postcode has houses in both Hertfordshire and London.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Indeed - unlikely. I've been into several Tier 3 areas recently. A number of police around at Leeds station yesterday, but they weren't challenging anyone.

Plus of course it is perfectly allowable (the advice about not travelling is just advice, not law), so even if you are travelling into a different tier area the most anyone could do is advise you not to - they couldn't tell you to go straight home again.

Even if the advice about travelling was law (and I don’t for one second want it to be so), how could it possibly be enforced?
If you alight a suburban train at London Kings Cross, and a police officer were to ask where you travelled from, if you just lie and say ‘Finsbury Park, officer’ (assuming the train stopped there), that answer should suffice.
Or are people wanting a state of affairs where you’re required to carry your ‘papers’ everywhere outside your home??

 

[Mojo]

Affluent area - wonder how many MPs and their advisors have houses there?

Three Rivers is less deprived and has a higher average income than Welwyn Hatfield.

 

[greyman42]

You are surprised the Government has changed policy again? You shouldn't be by now. Same as they are now reviewing the tiers weekly, not bi-weekly as previously communicated.

When was it decided to review the tiers weekly?

 

[ChrisC]

This makes a mockery of the previous explanations for the reason why the entire of the County Council areas of Kent and Lincolnshire were added to Tier 3, given they have only added 4 of the 10 districts of Hertfordshire.

A number of areas in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire now have levels well below the national average.
Some council areas such as Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire now have infection levels well below 100. I will be very surprised if areas like this are moved down to Tier 2 to reflect what has happened in Hertfordshire.

 

[Bantamzen]

When was it decided to review the tiers weekly?

When London went to Tier 3....

 

[greyman42]

When London went to Tier 3....

OK thanks, i think that has gone under the radar a bit.

 

[Mojo]

OK thanks, i think that has gone under the radar a bit.

Yes indeed, the promise of a bit of certainty for at least a three week period gone well out the window. At least I’m only a 5 minute drive across the border.

 

[DB]

Yes indeed, the promise of a bit of certainty for at least a three week period gone well out the window.

Unfotunately it was rather predictable - the government seems to have a policy now (and has had since at least September) of changing the rules so often that nobody can keep up. Perhaps this is to avoid evidence of measures not working, as none of them are ever left in place for long enough to demonstrate this.

 

[John R]

It isn't trivial, of course, but you could easily train people in the basics of Covid and Covid-related issues in that time. You don't need to teach them all the other skills that nurses have to learn.

It's easy to train a train driver too. A day learning the controls in a simulator, and then just tell them to follow the red and green lights on sticks. Don't need to worry about which way to go - the route is all set for you, all you have to do is remember to stop at the right stations, and check which side to open the door. Simples!

 

[DB]

It's easy to train a train driver too. A day learning the controls in a simulator, and then just tell them to follow the red and green lights on sticks. Don't need to worry about which way to go - the route is all set for you, all you have to do is remember to stop at the right stations, and check which side to open the door. Simples!

So you're saying that because somebody couldn't be trained in some parts of nursing, it's not worth bothering at all?

 

[adc82140]

I'm finding the MSOA maps compelling to study. Where I live (Hampshire, but within a gnat's spit of Dorset) cases have fallen off a cliff. We are white on the map. Looking at Kent, the Medway towns that started all the trouble there have decreasing rates, but the rest of Kent is increasing. That's natural spread. Yet the whole county has been under tier 3 since the beginning of the month. Surely this is evidence that the tiers do nothing except ruin livelihoods.

We need testing, and a tracing service that's fit for purpose, not ruddy lockdowns.

 

[bramling]

Affluent area - wonder how many MPs and their advisors have houses there?

Shapps for a start!

 

[John R]

So you're saying that because somebody couldn't be trained in some parts of nursing, it's not worth bothering at all?

I'm saying I think you are seriously underestimating the step up needed from a "normal" nurse to one trained in intensive care treatment. Not to mention of course that the pool of likely candidates have been rather busy of late doing their day job to have time to be released to have the three powerpoint courses and a day's shadowing which you seem to think would be adequate. And the nurse to patient ratio is much higher in an ICU, so for every nurse that you might redeploy you've immediately lost capacity for many more patients in the main wards (themselves rather busy too), unless you pull a few people off the street, give them a thermometer and a white coat and tell them to do the rounds.

And then there are the doctors too.

 

[Envy123]

It's interesting that the areas closer to London get to be in Tier 3 but even the most commutable areas outside of that, remain in Tier 2. Are there not so many commuters from Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire to make a dent in the numbers?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I am getting beyond fed-up with all this now. I’m furious at the curtailment of the life I once had, when there is absolutely no logic behind the policies.
How can they argue that London is so virus-ridden that it must move into Tier 3 at 00:01 on Wednesday 16th December, and then suspend these restrictions only 7 days later, just because it’s Christmas?

Either there is strong scientific evidence that these changes are vitally necessary, or there isn’t. I don’t want to see them implemented, but if they must be, there can be no scientific basis for relaxation of rules at Christmas.

If mixing of households and letting people make their own choices over what they deem to be acceptable risk is permissible on December 23rd, it must also be the case now and up until that date.

 

[Ianno87]

It's interesting that the areas closer to London get to be in Tier 3 but even the most commutable areas outside of that, remain in Tier 2. Are there not so many commuters from Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire to make a dent in the numbers?

If trains to/from Cambridge are anything to go by, London commuting is near-enough non-existent.

It's the solid "work from home belt", i.e. the time for the journey for an office trip has really got to be worth it. Which, at the moment, it isn't.

 

[Envy123]

If trains to/from Cambridge are anything to go by, London commuting is near-enough non-existent.

It's the solid "work from home belt", i.e. the time for the journey for an office trip has really got to be worth it. Which, at the moment, it isn't.

Understood, thank you. I seem to recall packed trains coming from King's Cross on the Peterborough services pre-COVID, but I suspect most of the traffic was to Hertfordshire only.

 

[Ianno87]

Understood, thank you. I seem to recall packed trains coming from King's Cross on the Peterborough services pre-COVID, but I suspect most of the traffic was to Hertfordshire only.

Cambridge trains definitely well-loaded throughout pre-Covid. But not at present.

 

[Yew]

It is an offence for residents of elsewhere in the United Kingdom, or County Donegal in the ROI, to enter Scotland. Reasonable excuses apply, as to which see Schedule 7A to SSI 2020/344. Police Scotland may enforce this by fixed penalty notice, reporting to the procurator fiscal, or arrest.

It is an offence for anyone resident in a tier 3 area of England, or a tier 3 or 4 area of Scotland, or Northern Ireland, to enter Wales. Reasonable excuses apply, as to which see section 9 of SI 2020/W276. The Heddlu may enforce this by fixed penalty notice, reporting to the CPS, or arrest.

I cannot see how these are compatiable with the limits of devolution?

 

[DB]

I'm saying I think you are seriously underestimating the step up needed from a "normal" nurse to one trained in intensive care treatment. Not to mention of course that the pool of likely candidates have been rather busy of late doing their day job to have time to be released to have the three powerpoint courses and a day's shadowing which you seem to think would be adequate. And the nurse to patient ratio is much higher in an ICU, so for every nurse that you might redeploy you've immediately lost capacity for many more patients in the main wards (themselves rather busy too), unless you pull a few people off the street, give them a thermometer and a white coat and tell them to do the rounds.

And then there are the doctors too.

No, I'm not. As I suggested earlier, they could be used for other work (e.g. general wards) to release more experienced nurses for the more demanding work.

 

[island]

I cannot see how these are compatiable with the limits of devolution?

Parliament granted the Scottish Ministers the power to make regulations such as these with Schedule 19 to the Coronavirus Act 2020. I have not checked out Wales.

 

[Kite159]

I cannot see how these are compatiable with the limits of devolution?

The Scottish travel ban is completely unenforceable, otherwise that railtour with 90s last Saturday would have been breaking the law when it travelled into Glasgow (all be for 20 minutes before returning to Carlisle).