New CrossCountry Cardiff - Edinburgh service: possible routes/traction?

[A S Leib]

For a open access operator would it not be more financially viable going via Leeds after Sheffield, than Doncaster?

I'd guess that Doncaster's less likely to be considered abstractive, especially when CrossCountry's still only running five or six trains per day in each direction.

 

[Zontar]

I'd guess that Doncaster's less likely to be considered abstractive, especially when CrossCountry's still only running five or six trains per day in each direction.

Grand union want to go WCML and up to sterling.

Stirling to London - Grand Union Trains Ltd

As our second proposed open access route in the UK, we are planning to introduce a new service between Stirling and London along the West Coast Main Line during 2025. This service will transform the connectivity of a whole range of significant and rapidly changing Scottish towns along the...

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

 

[The Planner]

Grand union want to go WCML and up to sterling.

Stirling to London - Grand Union Trains Ltd

As our second proposed open access route in the UK, we are planning to introduce a new service between Stirling and London along the West Coast Main Line during 2025. This service will transform the connectivity of a whole range of significant and rapidly changing Scottish towns along the...

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

Thats a completely different proposition though, and has been in the offing way before the XC one.

 

[YorkRailFan]

So we have xc, grand central and grand union all wanting to operate up to Scotland.
They all must see some benefits...

Since when has GC hinted at going to Scotland?

Grand union want to go WCML and up to sterling.

Stirling to London - Grand Union Trains Ltd

As our second proposed open access route in the UK, we are planning to introduce a new service between Stirling and London along the West Coast Main Line during 2025. This service will transform the connectivity of a whole range of significant and rapidly changing Scottish towns along the...

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

You wait forever for a Cardiff-Edinburgh train operator – then two come along at once. Aspirant open access operator, Grand Union, has initiated industry consultations for its ambitious plan to operate five daily services connecting Cardiff and Edinburgh. Managing Director Ian Yeowart revealed that discussions with stakeholders in Wales and Scotland had repeatedly highlighted the need for improved connectivity between the two cities.The proposals come just a couple of weeks after the incumbent franchised operator, CrossCountry, announced that they would run a once-a-day service between the two Celtic capitals from the end of 2024. Grand Central has trumped that with their own much more ambitious five-a-day plans, probably starting in 2025. In addition to the Cardiff-Edinburgh route, Grand Union is also already exploring rolling stock options for proposed services between London and Carmarthen, as well as London and Stirling.

Benefit regional business interests
Grand Union has been attempting to enter the UK passenger market for a few years now. The company has put forward various proposals, but the Wales – England – Scotland service, connecting Cardiff with Edinburgh, via most of England, is their most ambitious and complex to date. The envisioned services are proposed to serve Cardiff, Newport, Severn Tunnel Junction (for Bristol), Gloucester, Birmingham New Street, Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Newcastle, and Edinburgh. The target launch date is December 2025.“I am very interested in this proposal from open access operator Grand Union,” said Peter Keenan, Co-Chair of the Sheffield Chamber of Commerce South Yorkshire Transport Forum. He already has a meeting in the diary to discuss regional business interests with the would-be operators. “Giving South Yorkshire a new direct connection to Cardiff, more fast train services to Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, and Birmingham, and restoring the Doncaster services lost on the CrossCountry corridor during the Covid emergency, is a really good proposal.”Real competition and drive-up standards
Tim Yeowart, the managing director of Grand Union, agreed that routing through Doncaster was intended to help fill a gap left by the discontinuation of many CrossCountry services that previously serviced this route. Critics have pointed out that the proposed services would overlap with existing CrossCountry services, at least in part. The question of demand for direct Cardiff-Edinburgh services has sparked debate. Most analysts argue that the service primarily targets revenue generation along the heavily congested section between Birmingham and York.In most cases, where an open access operator proposes to parallel the route of an incumbent franchised operator, the government’s railway administration (the Office of Rail and Road – ORR) will be minded to decline their application, on the grounds of abstraction of revenue. However, the case here may be very different. Existing services, mainly provided by CrossCountry are demonstrably unable to cope with demand. “An open access operator is one that operates with no government financial support”, explained Keenan. “Approval has to be given to operations and a new service will only be granted the right to operate if space is available on the network and the government is satisfied that there is proper merit in the proposal. Open access really should be a much bigger element of operations as it introduces real competition and consequently should drive up standards.”Alliance Rail branding
Grand Union’s proposal encompasses the utilisation of either Class 221 Super Voyager or Class 222 “Meridian” train sets. These diesel multiple units can be configured with anywhere from four to nine carriages. They are similar to the rolling stock employed by CrossCountry and are around twenty years into their operational lifespan. Hopes of brand-new rolling stock would depend on delivery dates and many other variable factors.

It is understood that the Cardiff – Edinburgh application is being made under the Alliance Rail name, in order to avoid confusion with Grand Union’s existing proposals for London – Carmarthen and London – Stirling services. The London–Stirling open access service has a provisional start date of June 2025. Meanwhile, the Cardiff – Edinburgh proposal has been officially submitted to Network Rail and the Office of Rail & Road (ORR). A preliminary timetable has been drafted, and detailed information has been shared with the Department for Transport.

Another Cardiff-Edinburgh rail service proposal

You wait forever for a Cardiff-Edinburgh train operator – then two come along at once. Aspirant open access operator, Grand Union, has initiated industry consultations for its ambitious plan to operate five daily services connecting Cardiff and Edinburgh. Managing Director Ian Yeowart revealed...

www.railtech.com

Sure you don't mean this proposal?

 

[swt_passenger]

As I mention in my post above it is probably more likely that the current Plymouth/Bristol to Edingburgh service get routed via Cardiff, than the Cardiff - Nottingham service gets extended to Edingburgh.

It isn’t more likely at all. There is a track access application on the NR website and it reads exactly as @TheBigD described in post #21 yesterday, as he said the Cardiff to Nottingham leg gets split at New Street, and the Voyager operated part joins with a train to Edinburgh. Southbound the service splits at Gloucester. So that makes the route and traction explicitly defined:

From the December 2024 timetable we will introduce a daily through service in each direction between Cardiff and Edinburgh... This will utilise existing train paths between Cardiff, Birmingham and Edinburgh by converting an existing Turbo-star operated Nottingham - Cardiff and a Cardiff – Birmingham service into a Voyager operated service, providing more capacity and more suitable rolling stock for a long distance service.

To deliver this service, there is one additional attachment in Birmingham New Street to form a through service with a Plymouth to Edinburgh. The return service currently splits at Gloucester and will continue to, with the front portion working through to Cardiff rather than running empty to Central Rivers. We have reflected this in our Performance Model and will take steps to mitigate these risks, maintaining staff competence and availability.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/26.01.2024%20-%20CrossCountry%20Trains%20Limited%20-%20Section%2017%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Section%2017%20Form%20P.pdf

Also, as an aside, the TAA also confirms that from May 2025 it is intended to restore the Newcastle Reading route to ‘near hourly’ with about a dozen extra services per day. May 2025 is the planned date for the seven additional 221 to be in full service. This service (or lack of it) has been mentioned in a number of threads on a range of subjects:

Under the proposed May 2025 timetable, we will deliver 15 additional weekday services, 12 of which are within the Reading-Newcastle service group. We will also add 14 Saturday and 12 Sunday services to the long-distance network primarily on the Reading-Newcastle corridor

 

[Zontar]

Since when has GC hinted at going to Scotland?

From the link I shared...

"The proposals come just a couple of weeks after the incumbent franchised operator, CrossCountry, announced that they would run a once-a-day service between the two Celtic capitals from the end of 2024. Grand Central has trumped that with their own much more ambitious five-a-day plans, probably starting in 2025"

 

[Starmill]

It isn’t more likely at all. There is a track access application on the NR website and it reads exactly as @TheBigD described in post #21 yesterday, as he said the Cardiff to Nottingham leg gets split at New Street, and the Voyager operated part joins with a train to Edinburgh. Southbound the service splits at Gloucester. So that makes the route and traction explicitly defined:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/26.01.2024%20-%20CrossCountry%20Trains%20Limited%20-%20Section%2017%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Section%2017%20Form%20P.pdf

Also, as an aside, the TAA also confirms that from May 2025 it is intended to restore the Newcastle Reading route to ‘near hourly’ with about a dozen extra services per day. May 2025 is the planned date for the seven additional 221 to be in full service. This service (or lack of it) has been mentioned in a number of threads on a range of subjects:

The latter is good to see written down. I hadn't spotted, thank you for pointing it out.

 

[YorkRailFan]

From the link I shared...

"The proposals come just a couple of weeks after the incumbent franchised operator, CrossCountry, announced that they would run a once-a-day service between the two Celtic capitals from the end of 2024. Grand Central has trumped that with their own much more ambitious five-a-day plans, probably starting in 2025"

Yet GC hasn't mentioned anything on the topic and can't run their existing timetable with the stock they have (due to issues with the 180s) let alone more services.

 

[swt_passenger]

From the link I shared...

"The proposals come just a couple of weeks after the incumbent franchised operator, CrossCountry, announced that they would run a once-a-day service between the two Celtic capitals from the end of 2024. Grand Central has trumped that with their own much more ambitious five-a-day plans, probably starting in 2025"

Grand Union’s proposal via Doncaster seems to have been made on the assumption XC are not likely to reinstate their Reading Newcastle service, but it now seems XC are doing just that. AIUI there’ll be no longer be capacity for Grand Union on the northern ECML, (ie York to Newcastle), from May 2025. I suspect the Grand Union proposal is doomed.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Grand Unions proposal via Doncaster seems to have been made on the assumption XC are not likely to reinstate their Reading Newcastle service, but it now seems XC are doing just that. AIUI there’ll be no longer be capacity for Grand Union on the northern ECML from May 2025. I suspect the Grand Union proposal is doomed.

The Grand Union proposal for London-Cardiff service hasn't really gone anywhere and there hasn't been news on the topic for a while.

 

[Starmill]

Ultimately the CrossCountry proposal (seems to be Ministers requested CrossCountry look at it) will have almost no effect on anything, with just one service per day each way that takes significantly longer than the current journey options at that time of day with a change at Crewe. The TfW and Avanti West Coast services will have more capacity and better availability of Advance tickets for Cardiff <> Edinburgh journeys than CrossCountry would be able to provide, as well as being better quality.

It sounds good on the news though.

Yes, that was the plan I saw when this was first announced. I remember it because I though the downgrading of the 0827 ex PLY from a double Voyager to a single Voyager between PLY and BHM was not exactly a positive for that section of the journey!

Not especially. The new PM service is also rather late into Cardiff Central if it's following the 1846 Transport for Wales from Cheltenham Spa.

 

[RobShipway]

It isn’t more likely at all. There is a track access application on the NR website and it reads exactly as @TheBigD described in post #21 yesterday, as he said the Cardiff to Nottingham leg gets split at New Street, and the Voyager operated part joins with a train to Edinburgh. Southbound the service splits at Gloucester. So that makes the route and traction explicitly defined:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/26.01.2024%20-%20CrossCountry%20Trains%20Limited%20-%20Section%2017%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Section%2017%20Form%20P.pdf

Also, as an aside, the TAA also confirms that from May 2025 it is intended to restore the Newcastle Reading route to ‘near hourly’ with about a dozen extra services per day. May 2025 is the planned date for the seven additional 221 to be in full service. This service (or lack of it) has been mentioned in a number of threads on a range of subjects:

Thank you for pointing that point out, I had not noticed it.

 

[Snow1964]

My assumption was that they would just an extend an existing Bristol to Edinburgh service to start at Cardiff instead and run through the tunnel to Bristol before picking up the existing route.

Certainly that would be the least effort change, so interesting that at least some of the discussion may be to extend a Cardiff to Nottingham service instead (which obviously is a larger change).

XC have actually added a webpage for Bristol-Cardiff route

The journey from Bristol to Cardiff takes an average of 50 minutes with CrossCountry. Your journey starts at Bristol Temple Meads and takes you towards the estuary. You’ll then cross over the River Severn before coming into Wales. As you look out the window, you will catch some beautiful waterside views before heading straight into Cardiff Station.

Actually it goes under the Severn, who writes this stuff

Comically then says further down page

05:20 Bristol Temple Meads
06:21 Cardiff Central
On time
Duration: 1h 1m

How a single train taking 61 minutes averages 50 minutes is beyond my maths ability (bit like their catering boast, about 20% out)

Trains from Bristol to Cardiff | CrossCountry

Enjoy great savings on Advance tickets on trains from Bristol to Cardiff with CrossCountry. Find out more about the route on our website.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk