New direct rail service to link Edinburgh and Wales "for the first time"

[GoneSouth]

I'm not sure about splitting them at Gloucester, this will add journey time to services to and from Plymouth. And the logistics of reversing at Gloucester could cause further delays in getting back on to the GWML in the Bristol area. Perhaps a better option would have been to run them as single sets and via the West Coast Mainline. The East Coast already struggles with bottlenecks at Doncaster & Leeds and that's without the Reading-Newcastle services back to a full service pattern. On a side note, this does seem to indicate that the remaining 221s from Avanti are planned for CrossCountry. I doubt they'd be able to run such a service at the moment - especially having just lost 5 HSTs.


That would be 221109.

No extra paths needed on the east coast as it’s an existing service that’s extended to Cardiff.

Splitting at Gloucester already happens on the southbound service (I admit I don’t know if this is daily).

It’s certainly happened on the rare occasions I catch this service when I’ve had to be careful about which portion is continuing to Bristol and which is going back to Birmingham. it should be fine for timings going down to Plymouth.

 

[Discuss223]

What I actually think could be more of a problem is attaching the two sets at New Street for 1S43. They’ve left themselves a bit short of time in my view for an attachment, which typically takes longer than a detach.

Yes, it can sometimes take a few attempts to attach units. Had problems at Leeds attaching a few weeks ago and it resulted in delays (not with Voyagers). New Street is a key hub for CrossCountry though, so I'm sure there will be extra staff on hand to assist.

 

[GoneSouth]

You do know this move already exists? 1V64 has detached at Gloucester for years and works perfectly fine. Until this December coming the front set on arrival heads Empty Coaches to Central Rivers from Gloucester, the rear to Plymouth.

All that is changing is the front set will carry on to Cardiff as a passenger service, then to New Street again as a passenger service, before running Empty Coaches to Central Rivers from there.

What I actually think could be more of a problem is attaching the two sets at New Street for 1S43. They’ve left themselves a bit short of time in my view for an attachment, which typically takes longer than a detach.

Ah ok thanks, that confirms it is a daily occurrence which happens perfectly smoothly.

I also fear for the joining at Birmingham. What happens when the Penzance is cancelled or delayed? Presumably there’s no spare crew to continue the Cardiff beyond Birmingham so that gets canned too?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Ah ok thanks, that confirms it is a daily occurrence which happens perfectly smoothly.

I also fear for the joining at Birmingham. What happens when the Penzance is cancelled or delayed? Presumably there’s no spare crew to continue the Cardiff beyond Birmingham so that gets canned too?

I noticed a runs as required 5D43 path to Central Rivers which clearly has been put in should either set run late. I’d watch this space, easy option for XC to opt to run it as a single set BHM-EDB. Obviously they are supposed to run the double set from there, but that path is there for a reason should it be needed.

In addition 1M00 (the return service from Edinburgh) often runs with the rear set locked out. So that could also have something to do with it.

 

[Discuss223]

Ah ok thanks, that confirms it is a daily occurrence which happens perfectly smoothly.

I also fear for the joining at Birmingham. What happens when the Penzance is cancelled or delayed? Presumably there’s no spare crew to continue the Cardiff beyond Birmingham so that gets canned too?

Is there a crew change at New Street? It tends to be a change over point for CrossCountry. If they've got a driver/TM/First Class Host & RSM in situation at New Street, they might be able to use the spare unit that they keep there and form a service with the crew available. If it's not planned to be a crew change, I don't see how they'd be able to run it with the crew stuck elsewhere, unless there are spares but at that time of day, they may already be sent on other diagrams.

 

[GoneSouth]

If it does all go wrong, you could end up with the Cardiff and the Penzance all shoved into a 4 car Voyager which doesn’t sound pretty (I say from experience after being on a 4 car from Bristol earlier which was bursting)

Hope it works, and if it does, hope it encourages more expansion from XC, fingers crossed.

 

[Discuss223]

It's a shame not to have the West bound service calling at Chepstow, it's a sizable town and having a two way service would open up more possibilities for days out. Seldom Turbostars call there as it is and it's a brand new service being introduced so not as though it has an established calling pattern to juggle around. Are there a lot of freight paths in that area that mean it has to run through at linespeed towards Cardiff?

If it does all go wrong, you could end up with the Cardiff and the Penzance all shoved into a 4 car Voyager which doesn’t sound pretty (I say from experience after being on a 4 car from Bristol earlier which was bursting)

Hope it works, and if it does, hope it encourages more expansion from XC, fingers crossed.

Oh yes, I forgot that they could run Gloucester-Cardiff Cent'-Bristol Parkway and back on route to Plymouth. Are the Voyagers cleared for the Cardiff-Bristol Parkway line though? I know the Turbostars are as they do/did have an early morning service starting from Bristol to Cardiff and some are maintained at Barton Hill.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

It's a shame not to have the West bound service calling at Chepstow, it's a sizable town and having a two way service would open up more possibilities for days out. Seldom Turbostars call there as it is and it's a brand new service being introduced so not as though it has an established calling pattern to juggle around. Are there a lot of freight paths in that area that mean it has to run through at linespeed towards Cardiff?

Looking at it, 1B64 is replacing 1V14 (NOT-CDF service) which will now terminate at Gloucester. It doesn’t call at Chepstow. The stops have just been taken from that, like for like.

 

[emoaconr]

It's a shame not to have the West bound service calling at Chepstow, it's a sizable town and having a two way service would open up more possibilities for days out. Seldom Turbostars call there as it is and it's a brand new service being introduced so not as though it has an established calling pattern to juggle around. Are there a lot of freight paths in that area that mean it has to run through at linespeed towards Cardiff?


Oh yes, I forgot that they could run Gloucester-Cardiff Cent'-Bristol Parkway and back on route to Plymouth. Are the Voyagers cleared for the Cardiff-Bristol Parkway line though? I know the Turbostars are as they do/did have an early morning service starting from Bristol to Cardiff and some are maintained at Barton Hill.

Yes, pre-covid XC ran a once daily return Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly (via Bristol and Birmingham) with 221s

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at the old timetables there were at least 2 trains a day to Cardiff Central from Newcastle/Edinburgh around 2003ish time. I think the direct trains from the North East to Cardiff ceased around 2007.

There is a lot of coverage about this new service in the press but realistically I don't think it will have much of an effect on passenger numbers. It will still be quicker to go Cardiff-Crewe-Edinburgh than Cardiff to Edinburgh direct. Also CrossCounty is an odd one as unlike other operators there are very few passengers who stay on the train for the whole journey.

 

[A S Leib]

How many people do journeys like GWR's Penzance – Bristol – Paddington*, EMR's Crewe – Newark Castle or TPE's Edinburgh – Newcastle – Liverpool end-to-end?

*I think one of those is the last train of the day from Penzance to London, so maybe not the best example.

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at the old timetables there were at least 2 trains a day to Cardiff Central from Newcastle/Edinburgh around 2003ish time.

Winter 2002/2003 there were six through services each way as part of a train running every two hours on the Dundee to Cardiff corridor.

 

[thenorthern]

Winter 2002/2003 there were six through services each way as part of a train running every two hours on the Dundee to Cardiff corridor.

Seems about right, I think there was one Leeds to Swansea train as well and then a Swansea to Leeds return. Around that period Virgin Cross Country were "fine-tuning" their timetable and the services seemed to change quite a bit from timetable to timetable.

How many people do journeys like GWR's Penzance – Bristol – Paddington*, EMR's Crewe – Newark Castle or TPE's Edinburgh – Newcastle – Liverpool end-to-end?

*I think one of those is the last train of the day from Penzance to London, so maybe not the best example.

Crewe to Newark Castle not a lot but quite a few go Crewe to Nottingham.

 

[xotGD]

Back in the days of 45/1s on sets of aircons, there was a 10:08 Newcastle - Cardiff (sorry, I don't know the headcode off hand) and 1E55 Cardiff - Newcastle (I don't know the departure time).

They fulfilled the needs of folk needing to make the through journey.

 

[swt_passenger]

How many people do journeys like GWR's Penzance – Bristol – Paddington*, EMR's Crewe – Newark Castle or TPE's Edinburgh – Newcastle – Liverpool end-to-end?

*I think one of those is the last train of the day from Penzance to London, so maybe not the best example.

TPE no longer run regular through services between Edinburgh and Liverpool via Newcastle, so that’s an easy ‘almost none’.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

TPE no longer run through services between Edinburgh and Liverpool via Newcastle, so that’s an easy ‘none’.

There’s still one service from Edinburgh to Liverpool per day in the evenings. Is it used highly? Not really.

 

[swt_passenger]

There’s still one service from Edinburgh to Liverpool per day in the evenings. Is it used highly? Not really.

Ah right I was looking at a Sunday. But the late service is an outlier, and it looks like it’s Saturday only, on weekdays it only goes to York. But the promised regular service from just a few years ago never got off the ground.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Ah right I was looking at a Sunday. But the late service is an outlier, and it looks like it’s Saturday only, on weekdays it only goes to York.

It’s booked to Liverpool daily, just engineering work for the Transpennine Upgrade means it’s often stopping short at the moment. It’s also always first to be altered to terminate short somewhere if there’s no crew.

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s booked to Liverpool daily, just engineering work for the Transpennine Upgrade means it’s often stopping short at the moment. It’s also always first to be altered to terminate short somewhere if there’s no crew.

Ok thanks. Not so obvious from looking at RTT.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at the timetable the new Cardiff to Edinburgh train goes via Chepstow and Gloucester, probably a good move as I know the previous Scotland to Cardiff services went via Bristol which obviously meant a reversal at Bristol Temple Meads adding quite a bit of time on. I think it took something like 1:40 to go from Cheltenham Spa to Cardiff Central via Bristol compared to 1:04 the direct way.

 

[Jason White]

I don't understand the logic of providing a thorough service from Worcestershire Parkway to Edinburgh but nothing on the return leg. Surely stopping at WOP wouldn't cause too many problems? This happens on a daily basis anyway with all the cancellations on the CDF route. It's like providing the cart but not the horse!

 

[A S Leib]

I don't understand the logic of providing a thorough service from Worcestershire Parkway to Edinburgh but nothing on the return leg. Surely stopping at WOP wouldn't cause too many problems? This happens on a daily basis anyway with all the cancellations on the CDF route. It's like providing the cart but not the horse!

The southbound service leaves Cheltenham at 18:52 with a Paddington service following at 18:59; maybe that's the problem?

 

[Tetchytyke]

don't understand the logic of providing a thorough service from Worcestershire Parkway to Edinburgh but nothing on the return leg

The northbound leg replaces a Turbostar service which would have stopped there. That’s the only reason it does.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at the diagrams it's a rather odd service in that it will be run as a 220/221 from Derby departing at 0649 then not calling at Burton-on-Trent but calling at Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Univerisity, Worcestershire Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Chepstow, Newport and then Cardiff Central. The train will then from the 0945 departure to Edinburgh which calls at Newport, Chepstow, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, Worcestershire Parkway, University then Birmingham New Street where it joins onto the train from Penzance and continues to Edinburgh.

The return service obviously splits from the Plymouth train at Gloucester then just stops at Newport and Cardiff Central. Then the same unit later forms the 21:03 from Cardiff Central to Birmingham New Street which stops at Newport, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, Ashchurch for Tewkesbury, Worcestershire Parkway then goes via the Camp Hill Line and terminates at Birmingham New Street.

I know it's to move stock around and to compensate for the lost rolling stock but it will be odd having a Chepstow and University to Edinburgh train. Also it will be the first time (I think) that a Voyager will be regularly serving Ashchurch for Tewkesbury.

 

[John R]

Looking at the diagrams it's a rather odd service in that it will be run as a 220/221 from Derby departing at 0649 then not calling at Burton-on-Trent but calling at Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Univerisity, Worcestershire Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Chepstow, Newport and then Cardiff Central. The train will then from the 0945 departure to Edinburgh which calls at Newport, Chepstow, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, Worcestershire Parkway, University then Birmingham New Street where it joins onto the train from Penzance and continues to Edinburgh.

The return service obviously splits from the Plymouth train at Gloucester then just stops at Newport and Cardiff Central. Then the same unit later forms the 21:03 from Cardiff Central to Birmingham New Street which stops at Newport, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, Ashchurch for Tewkesbury, Worcestershire Parkway then goes via the Camp Hill Line and terminates at Birmingham New Street.

I know it's to move stock around and to compensate for the lost rolling stock but it will be odd having a Chepstow and University to Edinburgh train. Also it will be the first time (I think) that a Voyager will be regularly serving Ashchurch for Tewkesbury.

These things happen now and again. In 2008 I had a member of staff reporting to me living in Cupar, Fife. The XC HST I caught to work at around 0840 from Nailsea and Backwell later called at Cupar in the early evening on its way to Aberdeen, and he sometimes used it to get home from Edinburgh.

 

[dannypye9999]

Why are they yet again "introducing" a Cardiff service on their longer distance services? We already have the Nottingham to Cardiff which offers a reasonable connection to Cardiff at Derby.
This will be dropped in a year or two due to low usage just like the endless list of other services. If the once a day XC Manchester to Cardiff wasn't popular what makes them think this will be?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why are they yet again "introducing" a Cardiff service on their longer distance services? We already have the Nottingham to Cardiff which offers a reasonable connection to Cardiff at Derby.
This will be dropped in a year or two due to low usage just like the endless list of other services. If the once a day XC Manchester to Cardiff wasn't popular what makes them think this will be?

I explained the ‘excuse’ for the service in post #80. It’s a direct quote from the track access application.

 

[WAB]

It's for operational convenience and will likely be sacrificed whenever there are operating difficulties, as is standard practice for the Nottingham-Cardiff route currently.

 

[A S Leib]

If the once a day XC Manchester to Cardiff wasn't popular what makes them think this will be?

Because for those absolutely opposed to changing, there's an hourly TfW service to Cardiff and no other direct service between Cardiff and Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh, and I think that's a larger market than Cardiff to Stafford, Stoke or Macclesfield, or Lydney or Chepstow to Manchester.

 

[GoneSouth]

Why are they yet again "introducing" a Cardiff service on their longer distance services? We already have the Nottingham to Cardiff which offers a reasonable connection to Cardiff at Derby.

I wouldn’t call it reasonable these days, it’s hopeless, always the first in line for cancellation and it’s incredibly overcrowded between Cardiff and Birmingham at times.

Last Sunday for example there was 1 train in the whole day that managed to complete the whole Cardiff to Nottingham route.

So, yes I suspect this will also be unreliable and cancelled at the drop of a hat unfortunately. I applaud the idea as it’s a simple switch of a unit from Bristol to Cardiff to provide the service, however XC leave much to be desired in the implementation of a plan!