New ScotRail EMU's, Any more news?

[Photohunter71]

Just wondering about the proposed new Hitachi EMU's for ScotRail. When will the first metal be cut,what class etc. If anyone has any info,it will be greatfully received!

 

[sprinterguy]

The following article from RAIL magazine contained quite a lot of information on the new EMUs.

Construction to begin in the spring, with the first four trains being built in Japan. The remainder will be built at the Newton Aycliffe factory alongside the Super Express Trains for the IEP.

No class number has been established yet.

Hitachi's Scottish EMU construction begins in spring

Author: Richard Clinnick 24/10/2014 in Network

Construction of the first of 70 new AT200 electric multiple units will start next Spring, after Hitachi won a deal to supply 234 EMU vehicles for ScotRail.

The deal for the trains was confirmed on October 9, the day after Transport Scotland awarded Abellio the ScotRail franchise (RAIL 759). It consists of 46 three-car EMUs and 24 four-car EMUs. There is an option for a further ten trains later in the SR franchise. All will be 100mph EMUs.

Hitachi Rail Europe’s Chief Operating Officer Andy Barr told RAIL that the first route to see the new trains will be the Edinburgh to Glasgow route, which is to be electrified. This is scheduled for summer 2017. These will be the four-car trains, while the three-car trains will follow and will be used on newly-electrified routes to Stirling, Alloa and Dunblane.

He explained that the first four AT200 EMUs will be built in Japan, with the remaining 66 to be built at the company’s new Newton Aycliffe factory, currently under construction (RAIL 759).

Barr told RAIL: “There will be four prototype pre-production trains. In Newton Aycliffe there will be two production lines, one for IEP [Intercity Express Programme] and the other for AT200.”

The first pre-production train, he said, will be delivered to the UK in early 2016. Construction of the bodyshells will start in the spring, he added. “We have been working on the design for 18 months.
There is also a lot of commonality with IEP.”

He said that the EMUs, for which a concept was unveiled by the company in London in July (RAIL 754), was designed with the ScotRail deal in mind. Barr told RAIL that the four-car EMUs will have a First Class area, but no decision has been made for the three-car trains.

Testing will be carried out on the East Coast Main Line in Scotland, prior to entering traffic.

Each EMU features cab-end and inter-vehicle gangways to facilitate the best use of passenger space.

The train has a 35-year design life and is made to complement the requirements as set out by Transport Scotland. In particular, they place a heavy emphasis on energy efficiency and weight reduction to minimise the impact on the infrastructure.

Barr said: “We wanted to ensure that passengers have a pleasant travelling environment with adequate table and toilet facilities, LED lighting and air conditioning as standard. Power sockets and WiFi are available throughout the trains, bringing modern comforts to the travelling public. In addition to this, the space underneath our cantilever seats provides room for luggage, which is supplemented by further luggage storage for commuter travel.”

A deal regarding maintenance of the trains is being worked on, and Hitachi is currently investigating which depot could be used. Barr said that Craigentinny could be an option because IEP will be based there, but he hasn’t ruled out other locations. He said that Abellio’s decision to use 27 High Speed Trains is also a consideration regarding maintenance locations. Barr said that Hitachi prefers to work in partnerships. He said that more than 60% of the AT200 supply chain will be British, and that the company has also recruited its first design engineers, who will be based at Newton Aycliffe.

Regarding future orders he said: “The AT200 bodyshell is influenced a lot by IEP, which is already cleared for Scotland. The difference is that AT200 is 23 metres long per vehicle and IEP is 26m. There are routes we are looking at.”

A spokesman from Abellio said: “We are delighted at the decision of Transport Scotland to award Abellio the new ScotRail franchise. The new fleet proposal was a major feature in our winning bid, and we look forward now to continuing the negotiations with our preferred supplier Hitachi.”

Regarding other orders, Barr said that should Hitachi win a deal with London Overground for 39 EMUs, then these would be AT100 EMUs, which are a Metro-style train.

•This news story was published in RAIL 760 on 29/10/2014
http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/hitachi-s-scottish-emu-construction-begins-in-spring

 

[Photohunter71]

Thanks! It should be worth a wee trip to Longniddry station for viewing the AT200's!

 

[southern442]

Will these replace any 314's, 318's and 334's at all? Or are they just replacing DMU's on newly electrified lines?

 

[chris11256]

The following article from RAIL magazine contained quite a lot of information on the new EMUs.

Construction to begin in the spring, with the first four trains being built in Japan. The remainder will be built at the Newton Aycliffe factory alongside the Super Express Trains for the IEP.

No class number has been established yet.

Bet that wont please the Scottish Government, using trains made in England.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Will these replace any 314's, 318's and 334's at all? Or are they just replacing DMU's on newly electrified lines?

They will primarily be used to replace the 158s and 170s on E&G, Stirling, Dunblane, Falkirk Grahamston etc services, and I believe they will also replace or allow a cascade to replace the fourteen 314s in service around the south side.

 

[anti-pacer]

Will these replace any 314's, 318's and 334's at all? Or are they just replacing DMU's on newly electrified lines?

Why would the 334's need replacing? They're not that old.

 

[D6975]

They will primarily be used to replace the 158s and 170s on E&G, Stirling, Dunblane, Falkirk Grahamston etc services, and I believe they will also replace or allow a cascade to replace the fourteen 314s in service around the south side.

Yup, the plan is for Scotrail to eventually lose all its 170s. 158s are to go on the West Highland, stay on North of IS sevices, GSW routes will be 156s. HSTs on the Queen St-IS-AB-Waverley circuit.

So, main impact is the loss of 170s and withdrawal of 314s as mentioned By NotATrainspott.

 

[158722]

Why would the 334's need replacing? They're not that old.

The suggestion has been made that the new units will displace (not replace) the 334s from their current duties on the Helensburgh to Edinburgh circuit. 334s then displace 318s/320s, which drop down to replace the 314s, which will be withdrawn.

 

[Photohunter71]

I thought just a handful of 158's were to be retained for Borders line as well?

 

[hibtastic]

Yup, the plan is for Scotrail to eventually lose all its 170s. 158s are to go on the West Highland, stay on North of IS sevices, GSW routes will be 156s. HSTs on the Queen St-IS-AB-Waverley circuit.

So, main impact is the loss of 170s and withdrawal of 314s as mentioned By NotATrainspott.

So Fife Circle will be operated by 158s then? I hate those things, tight, cramped seating and doors at the end of each carriage which are not really suitable to a stopping service like the Fife Circle. I hoped they would retain some 170s for this.

 

[anti-pacer]

Yup, the plan is for Scotrail to eventually lose all its 170s. 158s are to go on the West Highland, stay on North of IS sevices, GSW routes will be 156s. HSTs on the Queen St-IS-AB-Waverley circuit.

So, main impact is the loss of 170s and withdrawal of 314s as mentioned By NotATrainspott.

This seems a step backwards for Scotland's DMU services.

Where will the 170's go?

 

[ADRboy]

The suggestion has been made that the new units will displace (not replace) the 334s from their current duties on the Helensburgh to Edinburgh circuit. 334s then displace 318s/320s, which drop down to replace the 314s, which will be withdrawn.

I doubt they'll replace 334's. New trains are 23m. North Clyde stations build for 6x20m on the most part. Just about every station would need extensions etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This seems a step backwards for Scotland's DMU services.

Where will the 170's go?

Northern and TPE I'd imagine.

Neil

 

[158722]

I doubt they'll replace 334's. New trains are 23m. North Clyde stations build for 6x20m on the most part. Just about every station would need extensions etc.

So where are they going to be used then? 70 units on order, of which something around 40-45 will be used for E&G/Dunblane/Alloa etc.

 

[northwichcat]

This seems a step backwards for Scotland's DMU services.

Transport Scotland wanted the 170s off certain routes and the 170s couldn't be modified to meet their conditions for 'scenic stock' while the 158s could. Hence why Abellio decided to keep Sprinters and not 170s. Apparently National Express proposed new diesel locos and passenger carriages (opposed to cascaded HSTs) so while some people will look forward to HSTs going to Scotrail, others will probably be unhappy at Scotrail getting old HSTs not new trains.
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Northern and TPE I'd imagine.

To me the most logical option is (in the unlikely event of Manchester-York being electrified by December 2018) all the 170s go to Northern Rail and receiving 50 x 3 car 170s should hopefully finally allow 79 x 2 car 142s to be withdrawn even allowing for additional capacity requirements and DfT may be able to get away without placing a new DMU order.

However, in the event of Manchester-York not being electrified by December 2018 I think TPE will need extra capacity to cover until Manchester-York is electrified with cascaded Scotrail 170s the easiest way to fulfill that requirement. If that happens then a new order of DMUs would definitely need to be looked at as well.

 

[anti-pacer]

Northern and TPE I'd imagine.

Neil

What Northern routes would these be suitable for?

I'm guessing...

Leeds-Manchester Victoria (semi-fast)
Leeds-Nottingham
Leeds-Sheffield (express)
Manchester Airport-Blackpool
Manchester Airport-Southport
Sheffield-Hull/Scarborough
York-Blackpool
York-Hull

 

[northwichcat]

What Northern routes would these be suitable for?

I'm guessing...

Leeds-Manchester Victoria (semi-fast)
Leeds-Nottingham
Leeds-Sheffield (express)
Manchester Airport-Blackpool
Manchester Airport-Southport
Sheffield-Hull/Scarborough
York-Blackpool
York-Hull

Scotrail are keeping the 170s until December 2018. By then Manchester Airport to Blackpool should be electric and Manchester Airport to Southport will likely not exist as a service.

With a few of your suggestions note a 3 car 170 has a lower seating density than a 3 car 158. If some of the Yorkshire services have too many seats then OK but I would have thought some of them would be better staying as 158s which can be used in 2/3/4/5/6 car formations rather than 170s in 3/6 car formations, with 158s also having corridor connectors.

You might be interested to know that Turbostars on the Mid-Cheshire line and Hope Valley stoppers has been looked in to and it's believed they can better Pacer timings on the same line, despite people saying they don't accelerate quickly enough for stopping services.

 

[deltic08]

So where are they going to be used then? 70 units on order, of which something around 40-45 will be used for E&G/Dunblane/Alloa etc.

Don't forget the new service to Dunbar and Berwick for new stations at East Linton and Reston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What Northern routes would these be suitable for?

As they have a 2/3 1/3 door layout, pick your choice of Manchester, Sheffield or Leeds area local route presently using 142s, or any such route using 150s for a small cascade.

This would allow the end-doored DMUs such as 156s and 158s to be used on longer-distance routes to which they are better suited.

Neil

 

[158722]

Don't forget the new service to Dunbar and Berwick for new stations at East Linton and Reston.

Even an hourly service there would not occupy more than 2 or 3 units...

 

[Greybeard33]

You might be interested to know that Turbostars on the Mid-Cheshire line and Hope Valley stoppers has been looked in to and it's believed they can better Pacer timings on the same line, despite people saying they don't accelerate quickly enough for stopping services.

142s have 168kW engines whereas 170s have 315kW - 90% more power in a carriage only 50% longer. It would be surprising if 170 acceleration were worse, at least when both are fully loaded.

172s have 360kW/car, giving better power/weight than the 170.

 

[Class83]

Yup, the plan is for Scotrail to eventually lose all its 170s. 158s are to go on the West Highland, stay on North of IS sevices, GSW routes will be 156s. HSTs on the Queen St-IS-AB-Waverley circuit.

So, main impact is the loss of 170s and withdrawal of 314s as mentioned By NotATrainspott.

Where is it stated that Scotrail will release all the 170s and on what timescale? The franchise brochure doesn't make any reference to which units will operate the diesel Edinburgh commuter routes. 170s are far more suitable for this than 158s, dwell times at Haymarket are an issue, plus as 3 car units they would need fewer than the 2 car 158s. I would have expected them to keep some, probably the units without 1st Class until electrification reaches Dundee.

 

[southern442]

Where is it stated that Scotrail will release all the 170s and on what timescale? The franchise brochure doesn't make any reference to which units will operate the diesel Edinburgh commuter routes. 170s are far more suitable for this than 158s, dwell times at Haymarket are an issue, plus as 3 car units they would need fewer than the 2 car 158s. I would have expected them to keep some, probably the units without 1st Class until electrification reaches Dundee.

They seem to have a lot of good ideas for the franchise. Let's just hope they can put them into practice properly.

I notice that the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor is part of the intercity routes (which I suppose it is intercity really) but does this mean that they will run HST'S Edinburgh-Glasgow?

It would be very impractical but I would've loved to have seen HST'S on the Glasgow-Stranraer line and West Highland line.

 

[NotATrainspott]

They seem to have a lot of good ideas for the franchise. Let's just hope they can put them into practice properly.

I notice that the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor is part of the intercity routes (which I suppose it is intercity really) but does this mean that they will run HST'S Edinburgh-Glasgow?

It would be very impractical but I would've loved to have seen HST'S on the Glasgow-Stranraer line and West Highland line.

No, the Edinburgh to Glasgow main line is the focus of the current EGIP electrification programme and will be the main recipient of the new EMUs this thread is discussing. By 2019, all four Edinburgh to Glasgow lines will have been electrified, so the only remaining diesel services between the two would be CrossCountry extensions from Edinburgh.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

142s have 168kW engines whereas 170s have 315kW - 90% more power in a carriage only 50% longer. It would be surprising if 170 acceleration were worse, at least when both are fully loaded.

The relative lengths of the carriages is irrelevant; the factor here would be the weight, and the 170s are over 80% heavier than the 142s so there is only a marginally better power to weight ratio. Having more driven axles may also help, of course.

 

[Greybeard33]

The relative lengths of the carriages is irrelevant; the factor here would be the weight, and the 170s are over 80% heavier than the 142s so there is only a marginally better power to weight ratio. Having more driven axles may also help, of course.

But the weight of the passengers is roughly proportional to the length of the (fully loaded) carriage. 142s are spritely when empty but struggle when crush loaded (as they often are around Northern-land). Timings need to allow for the acceleration of a laden unit.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

But the weight of the passengers is roughly proportional to the length of the (fully loaded) carriage. 142s are spritely when empty but struggle when crush loaded (as they often are around Northern-land). Timings need to allow for the acceleration of a laden unit.

Would that not further reduce the advantage of the 170s, then, as more people could squeeze themselves into the longer carriages?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would that not further reduce the advantage of the 170s, then, as more people could squeeze themselves into the longer carriages?

Surely the difference in weight between when empty vs. when crush-loaded would affect the 142s (bigger increase in weight, as a percentage) than the 170s. My concern with 170s on Northern's local services would be the higher running costs, as they are bit 'flabbier' than their younger cousins, the 172s. Apologies for continuing the o/t discussion!

 

[sprinterguy]

It's not a simple matter of power to weight ratio when talking about acceleration, either; gearing is quite important, and it is the relatively high gearing of the 170s (for a 100mph top speed) that has hamstrung them in acceleration in the lower ranges, making them less suitable for closely spaced station to station work. The 172s, as well as being lighter, seem to have gotten around this problem, despite also having a 100mph top speed.
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Where is it stated that Scotrail will release all the 170s and on what timescale? The franchise brochure doesn't make any reference to which units will operate the diesel Edinburgh commuter routes.

Agreed: I didn't think it was any more than assumption that Scotrail will lose all the 170s. I'm scratching my head over the availability, and suitability, of 158s for the Fife Circle services, and would have thought that these services would be far better sticking with 170s until any potential electrification project comes along.