New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[infobleep]

I won't miss their lack of toilets. Travels for 50 minutes at night from Worcester Park and finding you could do with the loo less than 10 minutes into the journey. Getting out and catching another train isn't an option late at night either.

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[infobleep]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39445714

First MTR, a partnership between First Group and Hong Kong metro firm MTR, said it could not yet be interviewed due to a non-disclosure agreement.

I hope the BBC South today follow up this report and interview First MTR once the non-disclosure agreement period has ended. I'd like to know more about this. The BBC correspondent says we will end up paying for the trains not being used through higher fares. Is he correct?

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[Bletchleyite]

I hope the BBC South today follow up this report and interview First MTR once the non-disclosure agreement period has ended. I'd like to know more about this. The BBC correspondent says we will end up paying for the trains not being used through higher fares. Is he correct?

I would put money on them not "not being used" for very long at all. If they go to another TOC, only long enough to fit bogs to the fittings already provided for them (optional - if they go somewhere like Southern to replace 455s there will be no need for bogs), vinyl up and swap the seat covers, I suspect.

 

[emil]

I hope the BBC South today follow up this report and interview First MTR once the non-disclosure agreement period has ended. I'd like to know more about this. The BBC correspondent says we will end up paying for the trains not being used through higher fares. Is he correct?

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Maybe in the future, peak time restrictions in the evening period Monday to Fridays leaving Waterloo, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Suggesting anything like this with the numbers 458 will probably lead to technical suicide. They have always been a nightmare and always will.

200,000 plus miles MTIN MAA?

Yeah always crap. Well done on disrespecting those from Alstom and South West trains that dragged these up from no hopers to never bettered spanner winners. Shame they got tinkered with and the guys were forced to start from zero again. They are at 60,000 MTIN plus now only bettered by 444/450/350/455/379

 

[HH]

Yes, First stated that all mainland stock will have toilets.

The 707s won't. Maybe another reason for ditching them.

 

[HH]

So it could now be:
Welcome to this First South Western service to Portsmouth

Odd idea not to keep the 707's why couldn't they not give the 456's to replace the southern 313's and because they are old and the 456's are pointless for inner suburban London services. Pointless farewell for the 442's, but good they are back hopefully on the pompey's again

The 456s are going as well...

 

[HH]

Perhaps we'll see six car 442s? They're being retractioned, so presumably it could be possible?

How about uprated Class 150s with 455 trailer cars?!

It's becoming a 5/10-car railway; plus it would add quite a lot of cost, so is usually only done when there is a genuine need. Lastly, 18 x 5-cars gives you more units and more flexibility than 15 x 6-cars.

So, no, it won't happen.

 

[HH]

I hope the BBC South today follow up this report and interview First MTR once the non-disclosure agreement period has ended. I'd like to know more about this. The BBC correspondent says we will end up paying for the trains not being used through higher fares. Is he correct?

In short, no. Fares are not going to be affected by this. If there's any effect it will be on the amount of premium DfT receives from TOCs, i.e. it would be taxpayers that would feel the pain. But in any case, until we see how the market shakes out it's all supposition about what might happen at some future point.

 

[FOH]

If the 458s do go it will be interesting to see what happens to them - there isn't an obvious destination.

Southern 455s are nearly life expired and the intention is to move to a 5/10coach metro railway

 

[Feathers44]

Southern 455s are nearly life expired and the intention is to move to a 5/10coach metro railway

So is it a maintenance thing in some way that makes one fleet life expired and another not? Once upon a time, there was only a single fleet of 455s after all. (On the few occasions I've used Southern ones, they aren't half creaky old things compared to the red ones)

 

[DelW]

So is it a maintenance thing in some way that makes one fleet life expired and another not? Once upon a time, there was only a single fleet of 455s after all. (On the few occasions I've used Southern ones, they aren't half creaky old things compared to the red ones)

SWT's were extensively rebuilt around 8 or so years ago, with completely new interior fittings and seats.

 

[Feathers44]

SWT's were extensively rebuilt around 8 or so years ago, with completely new interior fittings and seats.

Ah, I didn't realise that went beyond the cosmetics of the interior but now you mention it I do recall some discussion of altering doors etc. Thanks.

 

[HH]

Any rolling stock is life expired when no-one wants to use it any more. As such the jury is out on Class 455s at the moment.

 

[WarrenTManager]

So is it a maintenance thing in some way that makes one fleet life expired and another not? Once upon a time, there was only a single fleet of 455s after all. (On the few occasions I've used Southern ones, they aren't half creaky old things compared to the red ones)

Southern 455s are on a dry lease so they are responsible for heavy maintenance and as such run the components to death. SWT ones are on a soggy lease. ROSCO pick up level 5 tasks such as C4 and C6.

 

[Rail.Fan]

Obviously this is just my pure speculation, But I can see 707s going to SouthEastern as I have a nudge that Stagecoach are going to win the southeastern franchise, Abellio,GoVia and First all seem very busy at the moment so it would make sense for Stagecoach to win.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Southern 455s are on a dry lease so they are responsible for heavy maintenance and as such run the components to death. SWT ones are on a soggy lease. ROSCO pick up level 5 tasks such as C4 and C6.

I didn't appreciate there were different types of leases like that.

They're not perfect, but I'd think the Southern 455s still have a bit of life left in them.

 

[D1009]

Obviously this is just my pure speculation, But I can see 707s going to SouthEastern as I have a nudge that Stagecoach are going to win the southeastern franchise, Abellio,GoVia and First all seem very busy at the moment so it would make sense for Stagecoach to win.

You reckon that's how franchises are awarded?

 

[Rail.Fan]

You reckon that's how franchises are awarded?

No not at all, Like I said it was speculation we will see what happens next year of course.

 

[HH]

Obviously this is just my pure speculation, But I can see 707s going to SouthEastern as I have a nudge that Stagecoach are going to win the southeastern franchise, Abellio,GoVia and First all seem very busy at the moment so it would make sense for Stagecoach to win.

Have a nudge? Make sense? DfT isn't like a referee who, having given one side a dodgy penalty, feels that he has to even it up by giving another one to the other side. They'll have a different set of people running the SE competition in any case.

Any idea that Abellio or First wouldn't have a dedicated bid team if they went for SE is nonsense, so that team will not be distracted by what's happening elsewhere in the company. Stagecoach should be very worried, because if they can't successfully bid for a franchise they've held for 20 years then they'll have a real problem in winning one they don't have an edge on.

In any case, having just bought the 707s they may well have thought that they had to justify them on SW; they will not feel any such necessity on SE.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are the Southern 455s past the point of a major rebuild being viable for extending their life?

 

[pompeyfan]

Quick question regarding the Envoy ticketing equipment. I was led to believe that it was actually purchased by SSWT, as supposed to leased like the Avantix. Any idea on how this will change hands? Will First be forced to buy it off them? I know it's small fry compared to other things, but you're still talking about 400 odd S6 phones, the printers, software, chip & pin readers etc.

 

[HH]

Quick question regarding the Envoy ticketing equipment. I was led to believe that it was actually purchased by SSWT, as supposed to leased like the Avantix. Any idea on how this will change hands? Will First be forced to buy it off them? I know it's small fry compared to other things, but you're still talking about 400 odd S6 phones, the printers, software, chip & pin readers etc.

First/MTR have a choice - either they buy it off SSWT or they buy equipment direct from a manufacturer, which includes Envoy. The only time this is not the case is with 'franchise assets'. It's unlikely that would apply to mobile TIS.

 

[pompeyfan]

First/MTR have a choice - either they buy it off SSWT or they buy equipment direct from a manufacturer, which includes Envoy. The only time this is not the case is with 'franchise assets'. It's unlikely that would apply to mobile TIS.

Thanks for the quick reply.

 

[fgwrich]

Have a nudge? Make sense? DfT isn't like a referee who, having given one side a dodgy penalty, feels that he has to even it up by giving another one to the other side. They'll have a different set of people running the SE competition in any case.

Any idea that Abellio or First wouldn't have a dedicated bid team if they went for SE is nonsense, so that team will not be distracted by what's happening elsewhere in the company. Stagecoach should be very worried, because if they can't successfully bid for a franchise they've held for 20 years then they'll have a real problem in winning one they don't have an edge on.

In any case, having just bought the 707s they may well have thought that they had to justify them on SW; they will not feel any such necessity on SE.

Besides, I could see a big problem if Stagecoach were to bid for the SE franchise in that it could and probably would come up with the Competition authorities - not for the railways but nearly all of Kents bus services are also run by Stagecoach. Remember when First won Scotrail and were told to give up many parts of their Scottish bus operations (which they still seem to be doing!), I can't see Stagecoach being happy with having to do the same.

On the other hand, First are quite lucky on the South Western front, as their bus operations only centre around the Portsmouth, Southampton, Weymouth and Bristol areas.

 

[Goldfish62]

Suggesting anything like this with the numbers 458 will probably lead to technical suicide. They have always been a nightmare and always will.

Correct. SWT did a truely great job improving their reliability but it was a job that shouldn't have needed doing. Poor design, poor build quality. Consign them to the scrapheap.

 

[Robertj21a]

Besides, I could see a big problem if Stagecoach were to bid for the SE franchise in that it could and probably would come up with the Competition authorities - not for the railways but nearly all of Kents bus services are also run by Stagecoach. Remember when First won Scotrail and were told to give up many parts of their Scottish bus operations (which they still seem to be doing!), I can't see Stagecoach being happy with having to do the same.

On the other hand, First are quite lucky on the South Western front, as their bus operations only centre around the Portsmouth, Southampton, Weymouth and Bristol areas.

Also of course, on their past track record, it's more than likely that First will reduce, or dispose of, the odd bus operation here and there !

 

[HH]

Also of course, on their past track record, it's more than likely that First will reduce, or dispose of, the odd bus operation here and there !

First seem to be quite bad at running buses in the UK; the figures show that they make very little money, while Stagecoach have quite healthy profits. It's not too surprising, therefore, that they have different attitudes to losing bus routes...

 

[Fincra5]

Are the Southern 455s past the point of a major rebuild being viable for extending their life?

Probably not worth doing to the SN units. They're not in the best of nick compared to their SWT brethren.

 

[Mikey C]

The 707s wouldn't make sense for Southeastern in their current form anyway, as they're 5/10 car trains, rather than the 12 car units which they need to run into Charing Cross/Cannot Street.