New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[Class 170101]

or have I missed the regular GWR services between Yeovil Junction and Exeter via Honiton?

For all I klnow GWR staff may 'pass' on SWT services to maintain the knowledge as capacity between Yeovil and Exeter for trains is limited to one extra train each way every two hours I think.

 

[antharro]

I hadn't observed that one loo was disabled, sorry. Agree about the seat quality and refresh covers. I still think that 90% of the time, one could sacrifice one seat row and space the rest out. Not sure about the window spacings though, perhaps leave the table position ones alone and just deal with the airline ones.

Sorry, HowardGWR, I mis-read your proposal for the seating. I'm always in favour of more leg room, but I don't think reducing seating capacity would be a good idea or look good for the TOC, even if the passengers who were able to get seats had a more comfortable journey.

 

[HowardGWR]

Why should tables get a view and not passengers in airline seats?

They might get a view where they don't have one now!

 

[HowardGWR]

If i am honest most of the time there is not a capacity issue west of Salisbury. Yes on holidays half terms sundays trains west of Salisbury are considerably busier but from all reports seeing 6 car formations on the Exeter services could be the norm.

Yes, that was what prompted my suggestion. The secret on the route is to get rid of a few commuters onto other services east of Salisbury (I think!).

 

[Roast Veg]

And yet the service splits 6 into 3 at Salisbury more often than not (or it did in 2014), so east of Salisbury would see no improvement to capacity without an extra service or two, for which there is no space at the London end.

 

[The Ham]

And yet the service splits 6 into 3 at Salisbury more often than not (or it did in 2014), so east of Salisbury would see no improvement to capacity without an extra service or two, for which there is no space at the London end.

Once the line to Salisbury is electrified I think that it would be good to extend the Basingstoke stoppers to Salisbury.

It would allow any remaining diesel services to run semi fast between Basingstoke and Salisbury, would remove some of the conflicting movements at Basingstoke and provide direct services between stations in North Hampshire currently require a change at Basingstoke.

 

[JaJaWa]

Quality decisive factor in South Western swap

First time a bidder offering lower premium payments but higher quality proposals has won a DfT rail franchise since new approach began in 2013

First/MTR has won the new South Western franchise despite offering to pay the Department for Transport less for the contract than incumbent operator Stagecoach. It is understood that First/MTR’s bid received a higher quality score than Stagecoach’s and this was the decisive factor.

It is the first time a bidder offering lower premium payments but higher quality proposals has won a DfT franchise since quality started being taken into account in contract awards in 2013.

FirstGroup chief executive Tim O’Toole said First and MTR, its Hong Kong-based partners, had recognised that quality would be particularly important in bidding for South Western. This was due to a combination of the DfT increasing the points available and market conditions depressing the premium payments that could realistically be offered.

“We put together a bid that was based on quality – that is, improvements in every aspect of the passengers’ experience,” he commented.

Plans to develop the service during the seven-year franchise are centred on complete replacement of the suburban commuter fleet with 750 new carriages being introduced by December 2020.

On main line services from Portsmouth to London, an additional 90 carriages will be introduced by December 2018 through reintroducing off-lease Class 442 trains to the franchise and refurbishing them.

Existing rolling stock on other routes will be refurbished.

Overall, First said there would be 52,000 more seats per day in the morning and evening peak at Waterloo by December 2020 amounting to a 30% increase in capacity.

Major timetables improvements with additional and faster services will start from December 2018 when the former international platforms at Waterloo are brought back into use. They include doubling services to Windsor and Reading to four trains per hour, and 35 more trains per day between Portsmouth and London. South coast Portsmouth-Weymouth trains will be reintroduced and there will be 400 more services across the network on Sundays, providing a frequency similar to weekday afternoons
for the first time.

Faster journeys will include a 12-minute reduction on London-Hounslow trips, an 11-minute reduction on Salisbury-London trips and an eight-minute reduction on Southampton-London trips.

New customer facilities will be provided on all trains by 2020. There will be free Wi-Fi with five times greater bandwidth than today so that an onboard infotainment service can be offered featuring films, catch-up TV, newspapers and magazines. Other new features on all trains will include real time information screens, charging points for every seat, and toilets on short distance metro trains. A new app will provide links to all transport services throughout the south west.

The introduction of smart ticketing across the network from 2020 will mean new flexible fares. FirstGroup said the technology would guarantee customers the cheapest single or return fare, offer part time season tickets, and provide cash back for commuters who buy 12 consecutive monthly tickets because they cannot afford an annual season ticket. In addition, there will be automatic compensation when trains are delayed by 15 minutes or more for people who buy season or advance purchase tickets on smartcard.

O’Toole said the plans had been based on extensive discussions with customers, businesses and communities across the network from Bristol to the south coast to London.

First/MTR to offload £210m Class 707 fleet
New standardised fleet will help deliver 93% PPM target

£2.6bn premium ‘quite sensible’
Annual revenue growth of 6.9% required

DOO questions side-stepped
‘We’ll consult in the normal course’ – O’Toole

Source: http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2017/04/quality-decisive-factor-in-south-western-swap/

 

[30907]

If the Exeter route needs relieving then why has the current regime at SWT - as I'm sure you are aware - been adding assorted dmu-worked services to its timetable in the past couple of years in areas previously the domain of GWR?

If the Salisbury-Exeter route is lacking in capacity, then about the last thing the ORR should be doing is allowing SWT to send its trains wandering about in parts of Somerset well off the core route.

So what useful function would the unit released from the Castle Cary route perform between approx 1430 and 1730 at Salisbury?

I could see a better case for withdrawing the established Bristol services - but I assume that's simply giving GW a capacity problem into Bristol in the morning peak.

 

[3141]

Does anyone have evidence of overcrowding on the Salisbury-Exeter services? The only anecdotal observation I have is on the 0641 ex Exeter, which gets a bit cosy from Tisbury into Salisbury (arr 0841) for hopefully obvious reasons. At Salisbury, an extra 159 set is coupled. All other overcrowding on these services I have observed, is east from, or west to, Basingstoke, where the line takes on a fundamentally different character.

Oh, there can be overcrowding from Exeter to Honiton during the summer, but this is an exceptional experience.

I haven't used all trains on that line though.

I'm quoting this post as a lead-in to various posts today from jimm, swt passenger, yorksrob and others.

The concern I expressed back in post #1181 about there being no prospect of extra capacity on the West of England line referred to the section east of Salisbury. There has been substantial passenger growth on that line, and many hundreds of new houses are being built or will be built at Overton, Whitchurch, and Andover, and I believe at Tisbury, and probably at other places I don't know about, so further growth in passenger numbers is inevitable. Over the next 12 years there will also be thousands more homes built in Basingstoke.

Most peak-hour trains leaving Waterloo for Southampton and Portsmouth consist of 10 or 12 carriages. Most trains to Salisbury and beyond consist of 6, 8 or 9. The majority of these trains call at Woking, and most of those heading to Southampton, and all that are going towards Salisbury, call at Basingstoke. If you're a passenger for Overton or further west you're likely to experience a more densely-packed journey as far as Basingstoke, because your train is shorter than the ones going to other long-distance destinations.

That's why my view is that more capacity is needed on West of England Line services, and why I think it's regrettable that two class 158s that Stagecoach haven't been using on those services are going to leave the franchise under First/MTR.

No, I did not read the ITT and I haven't compared it with the winning bid, but I did write to the DfT during the consultation period before the ITT was issued to make the points I've set out above. If the ITT didn't specify more capacity on the WofE line that explains why First/MTR aren't offering it, but the need is there, and I don't have to pretend I like the failure to do anything about it just because the DfT didn't think it was necessary to ask for it.

Source: http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2017/04/quality-decisive-factor-in-south-western-swap/

"We put together a bid that was based on quality - that is improvements in every aspect of the passengers' experience" - Tim O'Toole.

He's wrong about that.

 

[tbtc]

The concern I expressed back in post #1181 about there being no prospect of extra capacity on the West of England line referred to the section east of Salisbury. There has been substantial passenger growth on that line

Substantial passenger growth?

Warminster:
2011/2012 352,000 passengers
2015/2016 380,000 passengers

Westbury:
2011/2012 454,000 passengers
2015/2016 544,000 passengers

Frome:
2011/2012 146,000 passengers
2015/2016 175,000 passengers

Bruton:
2011/2012 27,362 passengers
2015/2016 36,950 passengers

Castle Cary:
2011/2012 275,000 passengers (+ 29,769 interchanging)*
2015/2016 241,0000 passengers (+68,294 interchanging)

Yeovil Pen Mill:
2011/2012 132,000 passengers
2015/2016 130,000 passengers

Yeovil Junction:
2011/2012 207,000 passengers
2015/2016 222,000 passengers

Sherborne:
2011/2012 225,000 passengers
2015/2016 221,000 passengers

Crewkerne:
2011/2012 125,000 passengers
2015/2016 155,000 passengers

Axminster:
2011/2012 281,000 passengers
2015/2016 394,000 passengers

Honiton:
2011/2012 354,000 passengers
2015/2016 390,000 passengers

Feniton
2011/2012 68,520 passengers
2015/2016 74,294 passengers

Whimple
2011/2012 68,392 passengers
2015/2016 68,448 passengers

Cranbrook:
Too new to make any meaningful comparisons

Pinhoe:
2011/2012 47,344 passengers
2015/2016 94,354 passengers

Substantial passenger growth at Axminster certainly - plus at the relatively small Pinhoe. But lots of stations seem to have seen growth below the national average of around 5%pa over those four years (or even a reduction in passenger numbers in some cases).

It would be easy to find lines that have seen greater passenger increases over the past few years, which are presumably therefore more worthy of seeing an increase in resources.

9x26m long 802s on the Paddington - Exeter service should free up a few seats on the Waterloo - Exeter service before long.

Most peak-hour trains leaving Waterloo for Southampton and Portsmouth consist of 10 or 12 carriages. Most trains to Salisbury and beyond consist of 6, 8 or 9.

Be fair and at least compare like with like.

How many Waterloo- Salisbury services are only six coaches long at peak hours? (since that is your definition for the Southampton/ Portsmouth services)

And the increased number of seats in a 23m long 158/159 carriage (with end doors), compared to the 20m 450 carriages (that have fewer seats due to the layout of the doors).

We all complain that our line gets a raw deal, but comparing apples with oranges doesn't help your case.

 

[3141]

As I said I'm concerned about the section east of Salisbury, but you've quoted figures for the other half of the line.

 

[TEW]

If is worth noting that the the London Waterloo-Salisbury section has benefitted from longer peak time trains over the last few years as a result of the introduction of the 458/5s and 456s and subsequent cascades of rolling stock across the franchise. Peak time trains are all running at the maximum length of 8/9/10 carriages now.

 

[Kite159]

9x26m long 802s on the Paddington - Exeter service should free up a few seats on the Waterloo - Exeter service before long.

Will it though, with the cheaper "via Honiton (?)" fares will still make passengers take the longer journey to pay out less [similar to going from Waterloo - Bristol].

One thing which may help with loadings is making Basingstoke a Pick-up only stop on both the 17:20 & 17:50 services [I believe the 17:20 skips Woking and the 17:50 is pick-up only at Woking]. Although that will force Basingstoke commuters onto alternative services.

I believe there is only one 10-carriage service in the morning peaks (arrives into Waterloo around 08:20, returns with the rear 158 locked out of use due to short platforms at Overton & Whitchurch which I believe can only handle 9 carriages)

16:50 is 6 coaches, 17:20 is 9 coaches, 17:50 is 8 coaches, not sure about 18:20, but 18:50 is normally 6 coaches, similar to the 19:20 [which when the £14 promo fare was on last year was F&S on departure from Waterloo, leaving passengers behind at Clapham Junction, which isn't the best as the 19:50 is a single unit]

 

[3141]

If is worth noting that the the London Waterloo-Salisbury section has benefitted from longer peak time trains over the last few years as a result of the introduction of the 458/5s and 456s and subsequent cascades of rolling stock across the franchise. Peak time trains are all running at the maximum length of 8/9/10 carriages now.

Thanks. I knew it was intended to free up the DMUs used on some workings from Basingstoke to Southampton, but I don't know the detailed effects are on lengthening services from Waterloo. I've never actually seen a 10-coach 158/159 train. Eight or nine coaches are of course shorter than most peak-hour 444s and 450s.

 

[TEW]

Will it though, with the cheaper "via Honiton (?)" fares will still make passengers take the longer journey to pay out less [similar to going from Waterloo - Bristol].

One thing which may help with loadings is making Basingstoke a Pick-up only stop on both the 17:20 & 17:50 services [I believe the 17:20 skips Woking and the 17:50 is pick-up only at Woking]. Although that will force Basingstoke commuters onto alternative services.

I believe there is only one 10-carriage service in the morning peaks (arrives into Waterloo around 08:20, returns with the rear 158 locked out of use due to short platforms at Overton & Whitchurch which I believe can only handle 9 carriages)

16:50 is 6 coaches, 17:20 is 9 coaches, 17:50 is 8 coaches, not sure about 18:20, but 18:50 is normally 6 coaches, similar to the 19:20 [which when the £14 promo fare was on last year was F&S on departure from Waterloo, leaving passengers behind at Clapham Junction, which isn't the best as the 19:50 is a single unit]

18:20 is 9-coaches.

The recent lengthening in the evening peaks is:
16:20 8-car all week rather than just Thursday and Friday.
17:20 9-car instead of 8-car.
17:50 8-car instead of 6-car.

There was similar, if not more lengthening in the morning peak. The 19:20 does get very busy during the school holidays mainly, but a 6-car does seem just about OK generally.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Didn't Fratton have barriers at one stage? I also think Portsmouth Harbour is odd or maybe it's Portsmouth and Southsea that's odd, as it actually has barriers!

Portsmouth & Southsea has had barriers since the very early days of privatisation, so early that they predate the Gunwharf Quays development which now means that Southsea is the quietest of the three Portsmouth stations. Fratton has never had barriers, Portsmouth Harbour is a logistical nightmare to add barriers to due to the requirement to allow access to the Wightlink Terminal.

 

[yorksrob]

Substantial passenger growth?

Warminster:
2011/2012 352,000 passengers
2015/2016 380,000 passengers

Westbury:
2011/2012 454,000 passengers
2015/2016 544,000 passengers

Frome:
2011/2012 146,000 passengers
2015/2016 175,000 passengers

Bruton:
2011/2012 27,362 passengers
2015/2016 36,950 passengers

Castle Cary:
2011/2012 275,000 passengers (+ 29,769 interchanging)*
2015/2016 241,0000 passengers (+68,294 interchanging)

Yeovil Pen Mill:
2011/2012 132,000 passengers
2015/2016 130,000 passengers

Yeovil Junction:
2011/2012 207,000 passengers
2015/2016 222,000 passengers

Sherborne:
2011/2012 225,000 passengers
2015/2016 221,000 passengers

Crewkerne:
2011/2012 125,000 passengers
2015/2016 155,000 passengers

Axminster:
2011/2012 281,000 passengers
2015/2016 394,000 passengers

Honiton:
2011/2012 354,000 passengers
2015/2016 390,000 passengers

Feniton
2011/2012 68,520 passengers
2015/2016 74,294 passengers

Whimple
2011/2012 68,392 passengers
2015/2016 68,448 passengers

Cranbrook:
Too new to make any meaningful comparisons

Pinhoe:
2011/2012 47,344 passengers
2015/2016 94,354 passengers

Substantial passenger growth at Axminster certainly - plus at the relatively small Pinhoe. But lots of stations seem to have seen growth below the national average of around 5%pa over those four years (or even a reduction in passenger numbers in some cases).

It would be easy to find lines that have seen greater passenger increases over the past few years, which are presumably therefore more worthy of seeing an increase in resources.

9x26m long 802s on the Paddington - Exeter service should free up a few seats on the Waterloo - Exeter service before long.



Be fair and at least compare like with like.

How many Waterloo- Salisbury services are only six coaches long at peak hours? (since that is your definition for the Southampton/ Portsmouth services)

And the increased number of seats in a 23m long 158/159 carriage (with end doors), compared to the 20m 450 carriages (that have fewer seats due to the layout of the doors).

We all complain that our line gets a raw deal, but comparing apples with oranges doesn't help your case.

You do realise you've included a lot of stops that aren't on the WoE main line.

I'm sorry - what have Bruton, Castle Cary or Frome have to do with this thread at all ?

 

[Suraggu]

The 0541 Yeovil Pen Mill to Waterloo which is 10 cars from Salisbury is full leaving Overton Monday to Thursday.

 

[jimm]

For all I klnow GWR staff may 'pass' on SWT services to maintain the knowledge as capacity between Yeovil and Exeter for trains is limited to one extra train each way every two hours I think.

They probably do, though the odd empty HST also passes that way - but if we are to believe yorksrob, then SWT's sets should not be off pottering about at the likes of Castle Cary, Bruton and Frome, as they are so desperately needed between Salisbury and Exeter to convey passengers, and the SWT staff could ride through Westbury with GWR instead...

So what useful function would the unit released from the Castle Cary route perform between approx 1430 and 1730 at Salisbury?

I could see a better case for withdrawing the established Bristol services - but I assume that's simply giving GW a capacity problem into Bristol in the morning peak.

I'm not the person claiming there is a terrible lack of seating capacity on services west of Salisbury. If this is the case, then every available SWT unit should surely be deployed there, whatever the time of day - but they're not, suggesting to me that things aren't that bad, hence the lack of a requirement to add lots of capacity west of Salisbury in the franchise ITT - though that does require the Bristol services to operate as a long-term element of the franchise.

I'm quoting this post as a lead-in to various posts today from jimm, swt passenger, yorksrob and others.

3141, this aspect of the discussion got going because of what yorksrob was saying about capacity west of Salisbury. Between Salisbury and London there may well be a case for something more, but in the realm of exciting things to announce at this stage, adding a couple more coaches on the odd peak train - assuming platform lengths allow this to happen - doesn't really cut it set against the goodies being offered elsewhere.

With just a seven-year franchise and 158s/159s that are deemed to still have a good few years' work left in them, the DfT has booted the ball of what to do about Salisbury commuter services down the road for the time being. Network Rail's Control Period 7 will start in 2024, along with the next SW franchise, so I wouldn't expect to see anything much changing until then.

You do realise you've included a lot of stops that aren't on the WoE main line.

I'm sorry - what have Bruton, Castle Cary or Frome have to do with this thread at all ?

They are of course the stations served by SWT's recent off-piste excursions into GWR-land - and appear to have enjoyed rather more obvious and sustained growth, compared with the WoE stations you claim are thronged with passengers and need longer trains. The cynic in me says someone at SWT looking at the numbers thought an Orcas raid might be in order... PS: these services have to be operated by the incoming franchise until December 2018, at that point they can carry on or drop them.

 

[43096]

9x26m long 802s on the Paddington - Exeter service should free up a few seats on the Waterloo - Exeter service before long.

I rather suspect it may be the other way. The 802s will have the same horrible seats as the 800s, which are vastly inferior to a 159 (assuming First don't put cr@p seats in the 159s to even it up). Although the 159s are already way better than the atrocious FGW HST interior.

 

[yorksrob]

They probably do, though the odd empty HST also passes that way - but if we are to believe yorksrob, then SWT's sets should not be off pottering about at the likes of Castle Cary, Bruton and Frome, as they are so desperately needed between Salisbury and Exeter to convey passengers, and the SWT staff could ride through Westbury with GWR instead...



I'm not the person claiming there is a terrible lack of seating capacity on services west of Salisbury. If this is the case, then every available SWT unit should surely be deployed there, whatever the time of day - but they're not, suggesting to me that things aren't that bad, hence the lack of a requirement to add lots of capacity west of Salisbury in the franchise ITT - though that does require the Bristol services to operate as a long-term element of the franchise.



3141, this aspect of the discussion got going because of what yorksrob was saying about capacity west of Salisbury. Between Salisbury and London there may well be a case for something more, but in the realm of exciting things to announce at this stage, adding a couple more coaches on the odd peak train - assuming platform lengths allow this to happen - doesn't really cut it set against the goodies being offered elsewhere.

With just a seven-year franchise and 158s/159s that are deemed to still have a good few years' work left in them, the DfT has booted the ball of what to do about Salisbury commuter services down the road for the time being. Network Rail's Control Period 7 will start in 2024, along with the next SW franchise, so I wouldn't expect to see anything much changing until then.



They are of course the stations served by SWT's recent off-piste excursions into GWR-land - the rather more obvious and sustained growth they have experienced, compared with the WoE stations you claim are thronged with passengers and need longer trains. The cynic in me says someone at SWT looking at the numbers thought an Orcas raid might be in order... PS: these services have to be operated by the incoming franchise until December 2018, at that point they can carry on or drop them.

The figures quoted show reasonable growth West of Salisbury for many stations in the region of several thousand. However, growth isn't the key factor if the single three carriage trains are already crowded to start off with.

And what happens if they grow by another several thousand next year. Where are they going to stand ?

I don't object the franchise going "off piste" to Frome etc. I do object to them squandering diesel sets on electric diagrams and giving them away to other operators when there are people standing in the vestibules. I suspect the artificial revenue costs of running additional carriages (in terms of track access charges etc) may be putting them off resolving the situation satisfactorily.

 

[Class 170101]

They probably do, though the odd empty HST also passes that way - but if we are to believe yorksrob, then SWT's sets should not be off pottering about at the likes of Castle Cary, Bruton and Frome, as they are so desperately needed between Salisbury and Exeter to convey passengers, and the SWT staff could ride through Westbury with GWR instead...

Without going through them indetail most (if not all) of these look be in marginal time where they would be unable to make any difference to peak capacity into / out of Waterloo.

I'm not the person claiming there is a terrible lack of seating capacity on services west of Salisbury. If this is the case, then every available SWT unit should surely be deployed there, whatever the time of day - but they're not, suggesting to me that things aren't that bad, hence the lack of a requirement to add lots of capacity west of Salisbury in the franchise ITT - though that does require the Bristol services to operate as a long-term element of the franchise.

I would agree there may be some scope to withdraw these and leave this in the hands of the GW franchise holder. However some may value the direct service that SWT offers to Bristol.

With just a seven-year franchise and 158s/159s that are deemed to still have a good few years' work left in them, the DfT has booted the ball of what to do about Salisbury commuter services down the road for the time being. Network Rail's Control Period 7 will start in 2024, along with the next SW franchise, so I wouldn't expect to see anything much changing until then.

I would be looking at The Lymington set to start with and wondering if something could be done with that using electric sets rather than a 158/159 DMU? Maybe a 455/456 or an extension of the Portsmouth to Southampton service? Secondly I would watch the EMT competition as to whether they keep all their existing DMUs or replace them with new ones.

They are of course the stations served by SWT's recent off-piste excursions into GWR-land - and appear to have enjoyed rather more obvious and sustained growth, compared with the WoE stations you claim are thronged with passengers and need longer trains. The cynic in me says someone at SWT looking at the numbers thought an Orcas raid might be in order... PS: these services have to be operated by the incoming franchise until December 2018, at that point they can carry on or drop them.

Granted it was probably an ORCRATS raid to start with but those passenger numbers suggest the 'raid' has actually done more than that.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Portsmouth & Southsea has had barriers since the very early days of privatisation, so early that they predate the Gunwharf Quays development which now means that Southsea is the quietest of the three Portsmouth stations. Fratton has never had barriers, Portsmouth Harbour is a logistical nightmare to add barriers to due to the requirement to allow access to the Wightlink Terminal.

<pedant mode> I'm sure Hilsea is the quietest of the 5 Portsmouth stations (as Cosham, Hilsea, Fratton, Portsmouth and Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour are all in the City of Portsmouth - Cosham being the only one not on Portsea Island).
</pedant mode>

I agree, though that PMH is a nightmare regarding barriers, both because of the Gosport Ferry and Wightlink. Were the Gosport Ferry not so busy at times, then access could be provided from there allowing the current entrance to be barriered along with platform access from the ticket office.

 

[HowardGWR]

ORCATS (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services)

There seems to be confusion on this thread about this acronym. I hope this helps. For new posters, it is a system that does what the Railway Clearing House used to do before nationalisation. An 'ORCATS raid' is when a TOC sticks a few services down a line to gain themselves more revenue, than it costs them to do so, through a favourable apportionment of receipts.

I don't think that is the motivation of SWT. Interestingly, I recently compared the cost of an off peak return from Bristol to Gatwick via Clapham Junction (SWT and SN) and it was £62 odd and with GWR via Reading, it was £227, IIRC.

GWR ( nearly 3 hr) is about half an hour quicker than via Salisbury, but no contest, if I were a thrifty punter from Bristol.

I wonder what will happen now First have a fist in both pies?

 

[swt_passenger]

I would be looking at The Lymington set to start with and wondering if something could be done with that using electric sets rather than a 158/159 DMU? Maybe a 455/456 or an extension of the Portsmouth to Southampton service?

Lymington has already been earmarked for a 450 when available (as is used Sat & Sun) - a unit should become available this years once the 707s come into use.. But even before the new franchisee came up with the plan to bin them completely, a 456 would never have made any sense for Lymington, as they would have all been needed for main suburban 10 car running. That's why SWT plan to take them off the Ascot - Guildfords very soon.

The new franchisee intends to extend one Portsmouth to Southampton service to Weymouth, and run a second Portsmouth to Southampton service as well. There's been no suggestion of through running to Lymington.

 

[Three-Nine]

For whats its worth, SWT have been restricting their autumn/winter/spring fares on-line promotions to start from Yeovil Junction due to a stated "lack of capacity" West of there - thats SWTs words, not mine.

From personal experience, a number of services have, over the past few months, been reported as "full and standing" from places like Crewkerne, Yeovil Junction and Sherborne. I wouldn't go as far as to say that its a continual issue, but it might suggest theres not much "give" left at times.

 

[HowardGWR]

For whats its worth, SWT have been restricting their autumn/winter/spring fares on-line promotions to start from Yeovil Junction due to a stated "lack of capacity" West of there - thats SWTs words, not mine.

From personal experience, a number of services have, over the past few months, been reported as "full and standing" from places like Crewkerne, Yeovil Junction and Sherborne. I wouldn't go as far as to say that its a continual issue, but it might suggest there's not much "give" left at times.

There is an indication here of potential demand suppression. The wealthy people down here won't put up with standing in vestibules.

 

[higthomas]

I don't think that is the motivation of SWT. Interestingly, I recently compared the cost of an off peak return from Bristol to Gatwick via Clapham Junction (SWT and SN) and it was £62 odd and with GWR via Reading, it was £227, IIRC.

GWR ( nearly 3 hr) is about half an hour quicker than via Salisbury, but no contest, if I were a thrifty punter from Bristol.

I wonder what will happen now First have a fist in both pies?

An off peak return from Bristol to Gatwick via route 'Guildford Reading' is £78.90 with a super off peak return at £63.20, whereas via 'Warminster-Salisbury' it's £61.80.

Rather less of a stark difference.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You do realise you've included a lot of stops that aren't on the WoE main line.

I'm sorry - what have Bruton, Castle Cary or Frome have to do with this thread at all ?

Aren't GWR meant to start running a Devon Metro service to Honiton soon or is that dependent on the 166's being cascaded to SPM and Bristol area?

Anyway if GWR do the Devon Metro to Honiton, that would then allow for the minor stations between Honiton & Central to be omitted by SWT (or whatever their successor is this particular week) meaning faster journey times for those to/from London.

 

[yorksrob]

Aren't GWR meant to start running a Devon Metro service to Honiton soon or is that dependent on the 166's being cascaded to SPM and Bristol area?

Anyway if GWR do the Devon Metro to Honiton, that would then allow for the minor stations between Honiton & Central to be omitted by SWT (or whatever their successor is this particular week) meaning faster journey times for those to/from London.

Yes, this is true. Unfortunately I've experienced quite bad crowding all the way from Salisbury on occasion. I just think they need double units on the route through the afternoon.