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New Stateman article: North TPE trains are like distracted ponies

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northwichcat

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New Stateman said:
Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds are separated by a mere 65 miles. Yet board a train at one end of this corridor and it will be nearly two hours before you alight at the other end. We ought to be seriously considering building a high speed alternative.

The current Transpennine Express trains trundle across the Pennines with a meandering listlessness reminiscent of a distracted pony. They huff and puff and creak and groan. Calling them "express" trains is an outrage against the English language. Transpennine passengers enjoy glorious scenery, but appalling speeds. As Andrew Adonis has drily noted, it is "quite an achievement" that the 45 mile journey between Leeds and Manchester takes almost an hour. Although the route is set to be electrified, the work will make only a marginal difference to journey times.

Of course, Britain is riddled with slow rail connections and plenty of trains huff and puff, but this case is different. This transport corridor links three of the six largest cities in England. Liverpool is the fastest growing city outside of London and Manchester is increasingly heralded as the UK’s second city. Surely our major cities should be better connected?

This issue is even more pressing in light of the economic importance of bringing businesses closer together - so-called "agglomeration economics". Nowadays, economic growth seems increasingly to be driven by large urban hubs where workers and businesses in close proximity compete, collaborate and copy each other much more intensively than they otherwise would do. Mixing in these ways drives innovation and productivity gains. As Evan Davies explained in his recent documentary Mind The Gap, London benefits from these "economies of distance" in a way that other parts of the country do not – and it is powering Britain’s economic recovery as a result.

Yet Davies also emphasises that the area from Liverpool through Manchester to Leeds is the prime candidate for an extended travel to work zone outside of London. With populations expanding again after decades of decline, these cities have the potential to form a robust corridor of economic activity, a northern hub.

This will depend, however, upon better transport links. As things stand, the area is hobbled by poor rail connections. Research by the LSE found that approximately 40 per cent fewer commuting journeys are made between Leeds and Manchester than would be expected given the cities’ proximity and size. Such statistics will hardly surprise regular Transpennine travellers, but they underline the extent to which poor transport connections are holding back business growth.

The government’s current plans for HS2 do nothing to address this problem of east-west connectivity. In fact, while the government has portrayed HS2 as an economic panacea for the north, the matter is far from clear. Many experts have argued that HS2 is more likely to draw more wealth into London than it is likely to spread it northwards. Unsurprising, then, that northerners show little enthusiasm for HS2 with 22 per cent strongly opposing the scheme in Yorkshire and only 10 per cent strongly in favour.

By contrast, a high-speed rail connection between Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds would be transformative for the north, drawing journey times down toward those of a standard Underground commute and thereby boosting business growth. It would cost far less than HS2 and would be more readily deliverable.

As things stand, however, we are in danger of allowing the controversy swirling around HS2 to stymie further thinking and plans for high speed rail, plans which should be judged on their own merit. Irrespective of whether the case for HS2 adds up, a connection from Liverpool to Leeds ought to at least be on the policy agenda as an option and subject to the careful cost-benefit evaluation of any major infrastructure project. When discussing high speed rail, we ought to be going beyond HS2.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...eyond-hs2-and-build-liverpool-leeds-rail-link

The article seems to echo Christian Wolmar's view in that a lot of investment is needed to improve local and regional links and the government is too focused on HS2.

Maybe the 185s could get the nickname 'Distracted Ponies' so that Pacers aren't the only trains with an animal nickname. :)
 
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sprinterguy

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Transpennine operate one of the newest fleets of trains in the North, built specifically for the route, and somebody still complains that “they huff and puff and creak and groan”? :| There's no accounting for some folk.

Some longer trains would be welcome, but personally I always find myself pleasantly surprised by how quick the journey is between Leeds, or York, and Manchester. I suppose that growing up in the North East of England, we always considered that Manchester might as well be on the other side of the world! :lol:
 

John S2

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... personally I always find myself pleasantly surprised by how quick the journey is between Leeds, or York, and Manchester.
The average speed between Leeds and Manchester is pathetic given the size of the population centres, and the target journey time of 40 minutes with electrification is lacking in ambition.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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From May the new journey time will be one hour 28 mins with the Liverpool to Newcastle services.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G33812/2014/06/02/advanced

I think that the current Northern Rail Manchester Victoria to Leeds service (continuing to Selby) that passes through Hebden Bridge with a number of stops takes a similar time period to that shown in your quote.

What is the desperately felt need for even quicker services between Manchester and Leeds and whatsoever new route is chosen, the costs of driving a new railway across the Pennines are something to put a financial check upon these aspirations.
 

northwichcat

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Transpennine operate one of the newest fleets of trains in the North, built specifically for the route, and somebody still complains that “they huff and puff and creak and groan”? :| There's no accounting for some folk.

Introducing eco-mode after First TPE realised they were using too much diesel means the trains sounds do loud unexpected roars when they start climbing.

There are also 170s on North TPE which were built for SWT and CT not TPE.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think that the current Northern Rail Manchester Victoria to Leeds service (continuing to Selby) that passes through Hebden Bridge with a number of stops takes a similar time period to that shown in your quote.

1 hr 28 will be the Liverpool-Victoria-Huddersfield-Leeds journey time on the new direct trains.
 
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BestWestern

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John S2:1776526 said:
... personally I always find myself pleasantly surprised by how quick the journey is between Leeds, or York, and Manchester.
The average speed between Leeds and Manchester is pathetic given the size of the population centres, and the target journey time of 40 minutes with electrification is lacking in ambition.

That has nothing to do with 'creaking' rolling stock, however. The 185s are in fact blessed with really rather ample power are they not? 'Creaking' would seem to be a popular current media term for 'old, tired and unable to keep up', which is simply incorrect here. Usual case of journalistic emebellishment (or 'bullsh*t') as most of us might call it.
 

Emyr

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I've heard the suspension creaking on an almost-empty weekend afternoon 185 service before. We moving at low speed south towards Salford Crescent and I was surprised there was much for the air-suspension to adjust for...
 

Welshman

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The average speed between Leeds and Manchester is pathetic given the size of the population centres, and the target journey time of 40 minutes with electrification is lacking in ambition.

Ironically, I think the size of the population centres makes the building of a line allowing faster speeds even more difficult, as I imagine it would involve demolition of swathes of the suburbs of Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Manchester in order to achieve it.

Also the current Manchester-Leeds lines follow the winding Colne or Calder Valleys for part of their journeys, and any line allowing faster speeds would also involve considerable tunnelling under the Pennines - such that I think the cost may be far greater than the original author envisages.

So attention has been given to raising speeds on the existing lines. It always impresses me that Leeds to Huddersfield is now only 17 minutes non-stop, as I remember the slow climb up to Morley Low, and the crawls through Thornhill LNW & Heaton Lodge Junctions.

West of Huddersfield towards Marsden, I think speeds of 80-90mph are now possible, whereas it used to be 55mph or so.

So, having seen journey-times from Manchester to Leeds steadily reduced from 70mins to approx. 50 minutes, I think, given these difficulties, the new target journey time of 40 minutes would be a great achievement. Still far more preferable to the hour or so on a packed M62.
 
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Emyr

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Ironically, I think the size of the population centres makes the building of a line allowing faster speeds even more difficult, as I imagine it would involve demolition of swathes of the suburbs of Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Manchester in order to achieve it.

Have you got any maps or drawings showing the necessary alignment changes?
 

tbtc

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Ironically, I think the size of the population centres makes the building of a line allowing faster speeds even more difficult, as I imagine it would involve demolition of swathes of the suburbs of Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Manchester in order to achieve it.

Also the current Manchester-Leeds lines follow the winding Colne or Calder Valleys for part of their journeys, and any line allowing faster speeds would also involve considerable tunnelling under the Pennines - such that I think the cost may be far greater than the original author envisages.

So attention has been given to raising speeds on the existing lines. It always impresses me that Leeds to Huddersfield is now only 17 minutes non-stop

This is the most sensible post on the thread - rather than the patronising guff about a "meandering listlessness" and phrases to describe the modern 185s that would suggest to those in the south that we somehow manage with Victorian stock... I wish the New Statesman would stick to the facts sometimes, rather than trying to dress things up.

If we can ignore the slow journey time from Liverpool to Manchester for a moment (since that's going to be almost half an hour in duration in a few weeks), the real issue is the service from Manchester to Leeds.

The service from Manchester to Leeds has to deal with busy urban areas (hard to build a fast railway line through) and steep hills (that cause the railway line to follow contours, meaning a slower and less-direct route).

It's not a case of being able to build a relatively flat relatively straight fast line from London through the "home counties" - there are much bigger problems of geography to deal with here - something that the New Statesman seem to have ignored.

And, seriously, the "It would cost far less than HS2" argument is a really weak one that I see time and times... almost everything is going to be "far less than HS2", because almost everything is going to be significantly shorter/ less ambitious than HS2.

Anyhow, I'm going to step back now and watch this thread turn in to the inevitable argument about building a massive tunnel from Liverpool to Hull (probably via Colne and Skipton...).
 

Gareth

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I think the author is exaggerating somewhat to support his stance on a new Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds high speed link, however, that corridor is not as high speed or 'intercity' as it perhaps should be. If the new Liverpool-Newcastle service can be justified without an intermediate stop between Liverpool & Manchester, then it may not be so pie in the sky as some would think.
 

LexyBoy

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The purpose of HS2 is not to regenerate the North. It is to prevent the WCML becoming totally logjammed, which would have negative economic impacts on that corridor and reduce the amount of freight carried by rail. For this it is the most economically sensible option.

Improvements to the Liverpool-Leeds corridor are essential for the whole region, I would say. But nothing to do with HS2.
 

Gareth

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But it should have something to do with HS2. HS2 is supposedly going to be a part of the National Rail Network, with 'Network' being the operative term. Also, it's not as if the current trans-Pennine corridors couldn't do with some capacity relief. Many of the Northern Rail commuter lines could have service levels more akin to Merseyrail. Worse than a shot in the arm. Also, if it does happen, I envisage any new approach into Liverpool being shared with HS2, as per Greengauge21's proposals a few years ago, so they would be linked.

That said, it probably won't happen. The DfT and Whitehall as a whole don't care about creating a network. The future is apparently just London with a chosen city in each government office region to play a supporting administerial role in their respective areas. That's why the HS2 proposals currently look the way they do.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The average speed between Leeds and Manchester is pathetic given the size of the population centres, and the target journey time of 40 minutes with electrification is lacking in ambition.

There's hardly a straight stretch of track between Manchester and Leeds.
Tilt is the obvious answer to getting reduced journey times, but nobody wants to talk about it.
Same in Devon and on the MML and the northern ECML for that matter.
The mindset seems to be that the increased cost of trains makes it unaffordable (and would conflict with the DfT's IEP-prescribed solution for everything).
With tilt the current 70-85mph would become 85-100mph or better.
 

northwichcat

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There's hardly a straight stretch of track between Manchester and Leeds.
Tilt is the obvious answer to getting reduced journey times, but nobody wants to talk about it.

The only serious proposal anyone has made for using tilting stock on North TPE is Alliance Rail with their Yorkshire-London Euston via Stockport proposals.
 

Gareth Marston

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There's hardly a straight stretch of track between Manchester and Leeds.
Tilt is the obvious answer to getting reduced journey times, but nobody wants to talk about it.
Same in Devon and on the MML and the northern ECML for that matter.
The mindset seems to be that the increased cost of trains makes it unaffordable (and would conflict with the DfT's IEP-prescribed solution for everything).
With tilt the current 70-85mph would become 85-100mph or better.

Oh no something wasn't written into the IEP spec, cancel the project and start again, I thought they'd thought of everyrhing:oops:
 

Senex

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.... If we can ignore the slow journey time from Liverpool to Manchester for a moment (since that's going to be almost half an hour in duration in a few weeks), the real issue is the service from Manchester to Leeds.

The service from Manchester to Leeds has to deal with busy urban areas (hard to build a fast railway line through) and steep hills (that cause the railway line to follow contours, meaning a slower and less-direct route)...

Has anyone seen what speed improvements are planned for Manchester to Leeds with electrification? What has been done between Liverpool and Manchester seems rather disappointing and it would be a pity if as little was done further east.

The problem of the time lost with the very low speed layouts at Liverpool, Manchester, and Leeds will never now be solved, but surely more could be done to raise running speeds between Manchester and Leeds -- remember how the old Eastern Region got much of the Marsden to Huddersfield line up to 80/85 years ago and did quite a lot further east whilst the LMR did nothing west of the Pennines. And note how Stalybridge has just been re-designed for nice low speeds to and from Victoria just as the principal service is to be diverted to that station.

What might be possible? How much of the Miles Platting to Stalybridge section could be got up to 75, and could the junction at Stalybridge be re-designed (again)? Is the 65 thence to Diggle really the best possible? Could the kink at Diggle where the main lines S-bend to get into the new tunnel (they point straight at the old ones) be eased? What is possible at Huddersfield if both main lines took the best possible alignment into the station at both ends, and are any further improvements possible further east? Would a re-building of the platforms at Morley (or even a moving of the station) allow a raising to line speed of the very restrictive PSR there?

Nobody is going to pay for a new high-speed line in the north (more's the pity!), and even if the money were there, think of the planning problems. So what's the best that can be done with a real Total Route Modernisation of the existing line?
 

northwichcat

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Network Rail did scrap some infrastructure improvements between Huddersfield and Manchester because when they announced North TPE electrification they decided the infrastructure improvements won't be needed as it will be possible to fit in 4 express services, 2 semi-fast services and 1 stopper without additional work due to electric trains accelerating faster.
 
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The engineering problems aren't that hard to overcome are they? Admittedly hard to move platforms west of the Pennines but perhaps a dynamic loop to let stoppers past?
Standege east portal slew the tracks across the alignment, through lines at Marsden and Slaithwaite, a bit more slewing through Heaton Lodge perhaps to take both TPE tracks underneath. Move Ravensthorpe platforms onto a new slow line to the south, realign the platforms at Batley to create through lines. Tilting EMUs, mega scenery, could be a quick blast.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

reb0118

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Anyhow, I'm going to step back now and watch this thread turn in to the inevitable argument about building a massive tunnel from Liverpool to Hull (probably via Colne and Skipton...).

You rang milord?

I think Colne - Skipton would be a winner ~ a sort of Airdrie - Bathgate for the north of England.

Back on topic. What realisticly can be done to speed up journey times on the core transpennine routes without seriously expensive civil engineering projects, and also without losing a regular service at the local stations?
 

JohnB57

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Standege east portal slew the tracks across the alignment, through lines at Marsden and Slaithwaite, a bit more slewing through Heaton Lodge perhaps to take both TPE tracks underneath. Move Ravensthorpe platforms onto a new slow line to the south, realign the platforms at Batley to create through lines. Tilting EMUs, mega scenery, could be a quick blast.
I think just about all of it was slewed to death in the late 70s.

And the "mega scenery" comment makes me think you've only every done the journey in the dark. Interesting, in parts, yes. Mega, no.
 

Emyr

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Through Mossley, between Stalybridge and Uppermill, I count 8 curves. With a blank canvas you'd build one left curve and one right curve, but even now I'd love to see it straightened.
 

3141

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Some of the earlier posts on this thread suggest that because Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds are all large cities they should have high-speed rail links. But in post no.12 tbtc looked at the practical difficulties involved. The main issue is Manchester in the middle. There are similar slower journeys if you want to get from one side of London to another. Despite the exaggerated views of the New Statesman, I think it's unrealistic to imagine that very fast links can be created anywhere regardless of geography - such as the Pennines or existing urban development. In some cases they might be, if the expenditure was going to be prioritised, but we should ask whether we really mean to create a linear city from Leeds to Liverpool.
 

JohnB57

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Through Mossley, between Stalybridge and Uppermill, I count 8 curves. With a blank canvas you'd build one left curve and one right curve, but even now I'd love to see it straightened.
The curves are there because the line follows the contour of the hillside. Straightening is not an option.
 

tony_mac

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You can blame the hills - but over the last 100 years, the Manchester to Leeds journey time has decreased by 15 minutes, but the Manchester to Liverpool journey time has not!


(according to the figures I have - in 1910 the fastest Manchester to Leeds journey was 1:08, and many Manchester to Liverpool journeys were 40 minutes. Liverpool to Leeds was roughly hourly, with a fastest of 1:53.)
 

LateThanNever

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Some of the earlier posts on this thread suggest that because Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds are all large cities they should have high-speed rail links. But in post no.12 tbtc looked at the practical difficulties involved. The main issue is Manchester in the middle. There are similar slower journeys if you want to get from one side of London to another. Despite the exaggerated views of the New Statesman, I think it's unrealistic to imagine that very fast links can be created anywhere regardless of geography - such as the Pennines or existing urban development. In some cases they might be, if the expenditure was going to be prioritised, but we should ask whether we really mean to create a linear city from Leeds to Liverpool.

If the 'agglomeration' theory is correct then it is a question of needing to create a linear city! At the very least the trans Pennine lines would need enough capacity to accommodate regular limited stop services so travel time from the West end to the East end is faster. They probably do not need to be bullet trains but need to be clockface regular and connect well - which is what the 'agglomeration' theory is all about...
 
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