Newcastle to Edinburgh...

[tbtc]

Newcastle to Manchester airport is made for interurban/trains like the 185's

It's just under 150 miles, so not *that* much shorter than Glasgow to Manchester

In hindsight we'd have tilting units for the Manchester Airport to Glasgow/ Edinburgh services, which would mean more 185s on the "core" Transpennine routes (where they belong)

 

[43167]

Delivered 10-11 years ago, but weren't in service until 2002.

Your right. I didnt realise it was that long.

 

[90019]

Your right. I didnt realise it was that long.

It doesn't seem like it was that long ago.

 

[Metroland]

Wondering if anyone knows why the line north of Newcastle averages only 80mph to Edinburgh unlike most of the ECML south of it? The line is largely straight, has no conflict with other trains so is the track or wiring bad there or what's the story? Just thinking that if that stretch was brought up to 125mph standard over more of it, there could be a few minutes saving there?!!

It's not *that* slow, there's a few slow spots, notably:

Morpeth: Severe 50mph curve, always been there. Virgin did have a plan once to bypass it. Scene of 2 major derailments.
Berwick and Alnmouth: Another curve and viaduct.
Grantshouse: New curve put in after tunnel collapse at Penmanshiel in the late 1970s, after track lowering work for larger freight containers went wrong.

The line was resignalled in the late 1980s/early 90s, with SSI NX PSBs at Morpeth (fringing with Tyneside IECC), Alnmouth and Tweedmouth. All these boxes control a large amount of level crossings with CCTV monitoring, and fringe with Edinburgh SC (70s, but recently turned into an SSI IECC) at the Scots border. 3 aspect signalling with simplified bi-directional signalling is provided south of Berwick, and 4 aspect signalling north of Berwick, although apart from Grantshouse I don't think it's bi-directional.

There is a fair amount of freight on the line, so loops are provided at fairly frequent intervals.

Speeds are mostly 105-125mph, apart from places above and a couple of others.

 

[tbtc]

There is a fair amount of freight on the line, so loops are provided at fairly frequent intervals

That's a good point not mentioned earlier. Loops are good, but loops which are only good enough to contain a train mean they are running pretty slowly when they rejoin the main line again

 

[Donny Dave]

What has RichW1 been smoking tonight? :?

Yes the ECML is slow around Morpeth and Berwick, but there is a lot of sub-100mph running between Darlington and Newcastle as well !

Also, I wouldn't say 185s have "commuter seating", it's the opposite! Yes, it is 2x2 seating (same as HSTs, mk4s, Voyagers and Pendos), but the main difference between the 185s and the others I listed is that most of the seats in a 185 are grouped around a table, and they all have plenty of leg room. Hardly commuter seats!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

That is one of my most frequent journeys.
As it is now, the train is already about 50-60 mins faster than car, despite the road (over the hills, not the coastal route) being 20miles shorter. Its as fast as it can be. The curves at Morpeth and Ayot have to be treated with a lot of respect - the relaid track twisting around Grantshouses is not designed for speed (there was talk of it being temporary as the engineers hadn't yet dismissed reopening the Penmanshiel tunnel when the bypass was being planned). The cliff-top formation between Berwick and Ayot are quite precarious.

It's not *that* slow, there's a few slow spots, notably:

Morpeth: Severe 50mph curve, always been there. Virgin did have a plan once to bypass it. Scene of 2 major derailments.
Berwick and Alnmouth: Another curve and viaduct.
Grantshouse: New curve put in after tunnel collapse at Penmanshiel in the late 1970s, after track lowering work for larger freight containers went wrong.

Exactly!
And there's the level crossings. So many of them!
5 between Newcastle and Morpeth and 1 just to the north of Morpeth Stn. between the 2 junctions and 25 LSs and 15 footpath crossings between Morpeth and Berwick.
I think the answer to the question is in the topography!

BTW, in my fantasy world, there will be a new rail tunnel bored under the Cheviot Hills, Lammermuir Hills and Rothbury Hills which allows rail traffic to travel the direct route from Newcastle to Edinburgh. But I shall never see it.

 

[RichW1]

What has RichW1 been smoking tonight? :?

Yes the ECML is slow around Morpeth and Berwick, but there is a lot of sub-100mph running between Darlington and Newcastle as well !

Also, I wouldn't say 185s have "commuter seating", it's the opposite! Yes, it is 2x2 seating (same as HSTs, mk4s, Voyagers and Pendos), but the main difference between the 185s and the others I listed is that most of the seats in a 185 are grouped around a table, and they all have plenty of leg room. Hardly commuter seats!

Well I'd love to see you sit your ass in a seat like a transpennine one for over 200 miles and with people piling on and off centralised doors like a suburban unit so yes I'd say they have 'communter seating' because they aint that comfortable and you have people piling on and off and past you because of the doors and length of the train being configured how they are. I'm sorry, would you call these Intercity's? Because if you find these units in look, speed and configuration the type that should be the sole direct service from and to 2 major cities over 200miles apart then I'd argue it's you who has been on the wacky backy! Oh yeh the main difference between 185's and Pendos is the seats? Yeh like I said and the design for people to pile on and off just like an inter-urban commuter, the 100v125mph speed difference, the stopping versus not stopping so much. Wrong train for that specific route, sorry.

 

[yorkie]

Wondering if anyone knows why the line north of Newcastle averages only 80mph to Edinburgh?

I don't think that's right. Having travelled on that line several times, it's pretty fast apart from Morpeth station (50mph) and a short winding section in the Reston/Granthouse area, which does dip to 70/80mph. There is no prospect of 125mph running in these locations. However the average could only be considered as low as 80mph when you consider station stops, time to accelerate, slack time etc.. It's certainly not the ruling linespeed, I think 90mph may a fairer figure. Today's 1E14 did the journey at an average speed of exactly 90mph (dep EDB 1232, arr NCL 1355). So the linespeed must average higher than that.
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Also, I wouldn't say 185s have "commuter seating", it's the opposite! Yes, it is 2x2 seating (same as HSTs, mk4s, Voyagers and Pendos), but the main difference between the 185s and the others I listed is that most of the seats in a 185 are grouped around a table, and they all have plenty of leg room. Hardly commuter seats!

The 185s are interesting to categorise as the internal train layout (position of vestibule areas in relation to seating) is definitely 'commuter' style, but the layout of the seating is 'InterCity' style, with plenty of tables, luggage space, and decent leg room. It's probably the right balance. I wouldn't want it any other way. It's far better than being in a refurbished FGW standard class Mk3.

A true long distance train should have end doors, but the 185s need to benefit from faster loading times and more standing capacity at peak times that their 2/3 door configuration brings, for the busy routes over the Pennines. While still having a good level of comfort for the longer distance journeys. It's the right balance.

 

[Donny Dave]

Well I'd love to see you sit your ass in a seat like a transpennine one for over 200 miles and with people piling on and off centralised doors like a suburban unit so yes I'd say they have 'communter seating' because they aint that comfortable and you have people piling on and off and past you because of the doors and length of the train being configured how they are. I'm sorry, would you call these Intercity's? Because if you find these units in look, speed and configuration the type that should be the sole direct service from and to 2 major cities over 200miles apart then I'd argue it's you who has been on the wacky backy! Oh yeh the main difference between 185's and Pendos is the seats? Yeh like I said and the design for people to pile on and off just like an inter-urban commuter, the 100v125mph speed difference, the stopping versus not stopping so much. Wrong train for that specific route, sorry.

Been there, done that. Sorry to disappoint. I took the 185 from Glasgow as I didn't wan't to take the Pendo or the Voyager to Preston and change there.

 

[yorkie]

Well I'd love to see you sit your ass in a seat like a transpennine one for over 200 miles

They're not designed for donkeys (and we're not American if you're considering the alternative meaning ) and I'd rather sit on a 185 for 200 miles than be blinded and crammed in like sardines on a FGW refurbished Mk3, or a Pendolino with their claustrophobic interiors. The 185s are fine. The only drawback (for long distance) is the 2/3 door configuration, but if they were working a service that had long gaps in stations then this wouldn't be an issue as there would not be 'people piling on and off centralised doors' on a regular basis on these sections, so I think this drawback is being overstated.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

However the average could only be considered as low as 80mph when you consider station stops, time to accelerate, slack time etc.. It's certainly not the ruling linespeed, I think 90mph may a fairer figure. Today's 1E14 did the journey at an average speed of exactly 90mph (dep EDB 1232, arr NCL 1355). So the linespeed must average higher than that.

Close!
The Aberdeen HSTs which don't stop between EDB and NCL manage an average timetabled speed of 84.5mph from dep. to arr. One of the electrics which don't stop manages 86.5mph.
Though as we all know, there is just a little padding in some of those 'advertised' timings.

 

[Metroland]

Newcastle station area as far as Manors: 40
Manors-Heaton: 85/90
Heaton-Benton: 100
Benton-Morpeth: 110
Morpeth Curves: 50/70/80/105
Pegwood-Widdrington: 110
Widdrington curves: 105/100 then back to 110
Acklington curve:85 then back to 110
Alnmouth curve and viaduct: 95/85 then 125 to Tweedmouth apart from Christon (110), Chathill (105), Fenham (115)
Berwick area: 95/75/70/90/95 across viaduct and sea cliffs
Grantshouse: 85/75/90/105
Innerwick-Torness:125
Oxwellmains: 105/110
Dunbar:85, then 110
Drem- Walleyford: 125, apart from Longniddry (110)
then 95/90/70/60 into Edinburgh

 

[yorkie]

Apparently the southbound Chieftain did even better, dep 1130, arr 1251, averaging 92mph. Quite incredible really given the terrain. It must be demanding for a driver with the constantly changing speeds. A 91 may just be able to push this to 95?

And on the West Coast, The 0730 and 0830 departures from Euston did quite well, leaving Carlisle late and making up time, both getting to Glasgow in only 66 mins. However this average is no better than the 92mph quoted above, despite the £billions spent on upgrades including tilt equipment and the use of electric traction!

 

[Metroland]

As it's been pointed out Newcastle-Darlington is much the same, it's limited by curvature. South of Darlington its dead straight and flat (apart from Tees Viaduct) all 125 and tested at higher speeds. Obviously York stands in the way, and your onto the relative new Selby Diversion, all 125, 100 through the sharp curve at Doncaster. Doncaster-Grantham has a fair amount of curves, so it's mainly 105-125, then the racing ground of Stoke Bank (although its speed restricted through Stoke tunnel) through the viaducts at Peterborough (105) and across the Fen, then back to 125mph apart from Offord curves until south of Stevenage. South of there its tunnels, viaducts and curves that limit things.

The WCML and MML have far more curves, but really that's the chief limitations: It's Victorian engineering for steam locos which ran 100mph maximum. The GWML is quite straight, apart from west of Exeter, where it's all over the place, and the Berks and Hants, which was really a series of branch lines linked together to get the Cornish Riveria and Torbay Express to the sea quicker.

If the ECML speeds where upped it would probably only be Stoke bank, the Selby Diversion and York-Darlington where you could exceed 125 for any significant length.

 

[142094]

Seen that the plan to bypass Morpeth by Virgin has been mentioned a few times, anyone got any other details about this?

 

[RichW1]

Been there, done that. Sorry to disappoint. I took the 185 from Glasgow as I didn't wan't to take the Pendo or the Voyager to Preston and change there.

Then you're obviously not bothered about speed which is fine, whereas I have things i need to do and go and I find 3hrs30 to go just over 200miles pathetic and not doable unless you're a student or retired; the rest of us actually have to get somewhere within 24hours!

 

[sprinterguy]

I have to agree, I find the use of three carriage, 100mph underfloor DMUs laughable on an Intercity corridor such as Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester, especially when the vast majority of that route is under the wires. Hopefully this issue will be addressed once the North West electrification is completed. Otherwise though, I think the 185s are very suitable for the actual Transpennine services they operate.

Although, even when the North West electrification is completed and assuming that EMUs are acquired for the Scotland to Manchester services, I see it as unlikely that there would be an investment in expensive tilting trains, so future electric services on this route would be limited to 110mph max and would hence probably utilise 100mph EMUs, so there would be little in the way of time savings. It seems far more likely that the electrification will simply see a different type of Desiro design with one, perhaps two, more coaches than at present with the 185s.

 

[Metroland]

Seen that the plan to bypass Morpeth by Virgin has been mentioned a few times, anyone got any other details about this?

When the ECML franchise (then operated by GNER) came up for its first renewal, Virgin Trains raised the idea of constructing new track and purchasing a new fleet of trains for the line[13]. These so-called VGVs (Virgin Grand Vitesse, after the French TGV) would be capable of 330 kilometres per hour (210 mph) and travel using a mixture of new track and existing track. The new track would be from Peterborough to Yorkshire and on from Newcastle to the Scottish border. This first track would have opened in 2009 and was chosen for ease of construction in the south and elimination of severe curves in Northumberland. Later, if successful, further stretches would have been upgraded. Publicity material featuring Virgin branded TGV and ICE trains appeared and it was stated that the stock would be built in Birmingham (implying Alstom would be the supplier) although, at that time, the only train capable of such speeds was the German ICE3.

Virgin teamed up with experienced civil engineering contractors such as Bechtel but their tender was rejected. There were issues with the souring relationship between the Strategic Rail Authority and Virgin Trains' other operations and the possibility of creating a monopoly on Anglo-Scottish routes. Sir Richard Branson said he would give up one of their other franchises if necessary.

Nevertheless, the Virgin bid started people thinking about possibilities and showed that multinational companies were prepared to get involved with privately funded UK high-speed rail projects for the first time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_the_United_Kingdom#Virgin_Trains.27_ECML_bid

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/s...VE/INF SRCS 2000/Informed Sources 04 2000.htm

 

[RichW1]

I have to agree, I find the use of three carriage, 100mph underfloor DMUs laughable on an Intercity corridor such as Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester, especially when the vast majority of that route is under the wires. Hopefully this issue will be addressed once the North West electrification is completed. Otherwise though, I think the 185s are very suitable for the actual Transpennine services they operate.

Although, even when the North West electrification is completed and assuming that EMUs are acquired for the Scotland to Manchester services, I see it as unlikely that there would be an investment in expensive tilting trains, so future electric services on this route would be limited to 110mph max and would hence probably utilise 100mph EMUs, so there would be little in the way of time savings. It seems far more likely that the electrification will simply see a different type of Desiro design with one, perhaps two, more coaches than at present with the 185s.

Totally agree the 185's are perfect for their TransPennine routes. As for Anglo Scottish services from Manchester would there not be enough 125mph line for non-tilting trains to make it viable? Or is 125mph only authorised for tilting trains? Seems a shame, but you'd think they'd go for a generic 125mph minimum across the board for classic line Intercity's whether it's used or not anyway given they maybe re-deployed in the future which is uncertain and it would be good to have the capability no?

Completely crazy and random thought here but referring to a post i saw about your Pendolino post saying they'd revolutionised WCML trains it's a shame we couldn't just order tons more of these for our winding railways and be done with IEP arguments coming in the future; the design's already there!

 

[sprinterguy]

Yeah 125mph is only authorised for tilting trains, everything else is still limited to 110mph as the track alignment is still largely the same as it was before, especially on the northern section of the WCML. It is indeed a shame that there isn't more scope for 125mph running on the West Coast with non-tilting stock.

The idea of Pendolinos absolutely everywhere on Britain's electrified lines does terrify me a bit, but that's mainly down to their interior layout and the tiny windows. Mechanically they are very good trains that have definitely helped the WCML. Could at least do with a few more ordered to eradicate Voyagers on Birmingham to Scotland runs, and the 185s on Manchester to Scotland once electrification is completed around the north west.

 

[RichW1]

Will the new Pendos coming eradicate the Voyager stock apart from on the London to Holyhead route?

 

[sprinterguy]

Will the new Pendos coming eradicate the Voyager stock apart from on the London to Holyhead route?

I don't think so, as far as I'm aware the four new Pendos are for the second hourly London to Liverpool service. Even were they to be put on the Birmingham to Scotland services, four trains would be insufficient to eradicate Voyagers from the route.

 

[RichW1]

I don't think so, as far as I'm aware the four new Pendos are for the second hourly London to Liverpool service. Even were they to be put on the Birmingham to Scotland services, four trains would be insufficient to eradicate Voyagers from the route.

It seems so odd after all that work there is still going to be diesel under the wires for the whole route! oh well, what can you do?!! :roll:

 

[tbtc]

The 185s are interesting to categorise as the internal train layout (position of vestibule areas in relation to seating) is definitely 'commuter' style, but the layout of the seating is 'InterCity' style, with plenty of tables, luggage space, and decent leg room. It's probably the right balance. I wouldn't want it any other way. It's far better than being in a refurbished FGW standard class Mk3

I agree.

I'm not a big fan of the 185s - too short, no chance of lenghening, no corridor connection to benefit from doubling up, too heavy, a tiny class which will be a headache to planners in ten years time when they come off some of the current Transpennine routes - BUT I think internally they are a pretty decent train and manage the compramise between capacity/ comfort/ space/ accesibility etc pretty brilliantly. When going up to Glasgow I prefer one to the interior of a 390, even if they take ten minutes longer.

Trains can't be "all things to all people", but I think the internal design of a 185 would be a good template for anyone building more (just a shame they won't be building any more centre coaches!)
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Will the new Pendos coming eradicate the Voyager stock apart from on the London to Holyhead route?

There should be (even if six/seven coaches), but I understand that there won't
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Seen that the plan to bypass Morpeth by Virgin has been mentioned a few times, anyone got any other details about this?

Metroland has explained things.

However, I'd like to add that (from my memory) there were two short stretches (avoiding Morpeth, avoiding Durham) and one long (from roughly Doncaster to south of Welwyn).

Paths of the "classic" ECML would be given to services for Nottingham (via Grantham), Sheffield (via Retford) etc.

Similar to Chiltern's Project Evergreen, with the TOC being (partly) responsible for planning and building infrastructure improvements. If this had happened then maybe we'd be looking at this kind of thing in a lot of other franchises (e.g. Midland Mainline bidders offering their own plans for electrification based on a twenty year franchise).

At the time Virgin weren't loved by enthusiasts (with their plans for getting rid of class 86s etc) and GNER were adored, so there wasn't the enthusiasm there might have been for a similar bid today.

The most frustrating thing about it is that if Virgin had won their bid, we'd be travelling on these lines by now!
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Could at least do with a few more ordered to eradicate Voyagers on Birmingham to Scotland runs, and the 185s on Manchester to Scotland once electrification is completed around the north west.

We could do with one class of "mini 390" being built for the Birmingham/ Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh routes when Lancashire electrification happens (if more 390s can't be ordered for it).

Plus electrification of the short stretch from Crewe to Chester.

Anything to free up those Voyagers which could go to Cross Country