Night Ferry route

[Nacht-Zug-Fahr]

Good morning ,

Does anyone know the route the old Night Ferry took from Victoria to Dover Marine

 

[jfollows]

Good morning ,

Does anyone know the route the old Night Ferry took from Victoria to Dover Marine

Timetable 7/5/73 to 5/5/74 attached, 1V44 46 via Sevenoaks, Tonbridge.

PS 1 hour later, same route, other days of the timetable.

 

[Nacht-Zug-Fahr]

Superb - just what I needed thanks !

 

[Tester]

Good morning ,

Does anyone know the route the old Night Ferry took from Victoria to Dover Marine

As generally for Boat Trains, Herne Hill and Orpington (Boat Train Route 1) was the booked route, but with no intermediate booked calls other routes could be used, either pre planned or by local regulation.

Generally Maidstone East (BTR 2) was the first choice, but Canterbury East (BTR 3) was also possible, with via Bat & Ball as an outlier. At the London end going via the Catford Loop rather than Herne Hill was nothing unusual.

 

[StephenHunter]

According to Paul Flint in Night Ferry 1936-1980, who was a second man in 1979 on that route, Herne Hill and Orpington (head code 46) was the preferred route, with the Chatham Route i.e. Victora-Herne Hill-Chatham-Faversham-Dover (74) being the first choice for diversion.

 

[30907]

Both trains were routed via Chatham from summer 1959 following electrification.
The Up train (normally) remained on that route AFAIK until the mid 70s as it wasn't into Victoria until 0910 (it was then retimed much earlier and switched to Tonbridge), and came up the Catford Loop.
The Down reverted to Tonbridge as shown as soon as that was electrified in 1962.

Please see post #11 which is more accurate.

 

[Taunton]

I think the morning Up train commonly went via Chatham before electrification, recalling photos of it doing so behind a pair of L1 locos. It was sufficiently heavy to be normally double-headed.

In passing, how did it manage at Dover when routed the "main" way through Folkestone? The train ferry dock tracks only appear to connect to the Faversham line, as the Folkestone line turned sharply the other way right at the throat of Marine station. Did it reverse at Dover Priory? And if so, but it was regularly diverted the other way, how did Victoria cope with it turning up in reverse formation?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In passing, how did it manage at Dover when routed the "main" way through Folkestone? The train ferry dock tracks only appear to connect to the Faversham line, as the Folkestone line turned sharply the other way right at the throat of Marine station. Did it reverse at Dover Priory? And if so, but it was regularly diverted the other way, how did Victoria cope with it turning up in reverse formation?

It ran into Dover Marine from whichever route it took and the sleepers and vans - marshalled rear - were then shunted onto the ferry.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I occasionally saw the up train from the bus on the way to school in Rochester, mid-70s, i.e. on the Chatham route to Victoria

 

[Taunton]

It ran into Dover Marine from whichever route it took and the sleepers and vans - marshalled rear - were then shunted onto the ferry.

Ah, thank you. The vans (and MLVs of other boat trains) needed to be at the London end, because this is where the customs facilities on the platform at Victoria were. That's another thing that seems surprising, that the passengers were (presumably) customs-checked at Dover, whereas the heavy baggage was checked by officers at Victoria. We actually went on such a service (to/from Ostend) in my very youthful years, but I've no recollection of how the baggage checking worked.

 

[30907]

I think the morning Up train commonly went via Chatham before electrification, recalling photos of it doing so behind a pair of L1 locos. It was sufficiently heavy to be normally double-headed.

Yes, on checking you are right. I haven't got a relevant WTT, but photos show the Up train with the Chatham headcode and public timetables

Intriguingly, the Down train also went via Chatham at one time, while the Up train pre WW2 seems to have gone via Tonbridge!
https://sremg.org.uk/misc/nferry.shtml.

So the best summary would be:
Down train, via Herne Hill and Tonbridge except following electrification of the Chatham route (summer 1959 for 2-3 years) when it went via Chatham.

Up train, via Chatham and Herne Hill until 1959, then via the Catford Loop until the mid-70s when it was retimed much earlier following the opening of Dunkerque Ouest terminal (Victoria 0745 vice 0910!) and switched to Tonbridge (and I think Herne Hill).

Post upthread amended.

 

[Busaholic]

Both trains were routed via Chatham from summer 1959 following electrification.
The Up train (normally) remained on that route AFAIK until the mid 70s as it wasn't into Victoria until 0910 (it was then retimed much earlier and switched to Tonbridge), and came up the Catford Loop.
The Down reverted to Tonbridge as shown as soon as that was electrified in 1962.

I used to see it most mornings going through Catford from 1959 to the late 1960s on my way to school.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Ah, thank you. The vans (and MLVs of other boat trains) needed to be at the London end, because this is where the customs facilities on the platform at Victoria were. That's another thing that seems surprising, that the passengers were (presumably) customs-checked at Dover, whereas the heavy baggage was checked by officers at Victoria. We actually went on such a service (to/from Ostend) in my very youthful years, but I've no recollection of how the baggage checking worked.

I believe Sleeping Car passengers were customs checked in London, but foot passengers (and their luggage) were checked at Dover. I always regret only ever having used the service as a foot passenger even if class 71 haulage was a benefit to both categories of passenger - although only sleeper passengers were able to enjoy what I believe was a class 09 onto (or off) the ferry.

 

[Gloster]

The timetable shows a couple of those headcode idiosyncrasies that used to turn up. The Night Ferry and what I presume is the summer relief both have a V as their letter, while the Canterbury East train has an S. V was normally used for inter-regional trains heading for the Western Region and S for the Scottish Region, but presumably there were no Class 1 trains heading for these regions on the South Eastern Division.

 

[jfollows]

Up service 1973/74 08:05 Q 1C10 46 arrive Victoria 09:38 (so probably an alternative path from the Chatham route normally taken 07:22 Dover-09:09 Victoria)
Up service 1978/79 06:10 1G54 47 arrive Victoria 07:45 (so via Nunhead/Catford Loop rather than Herne Hill)
Down service 1978/79 22:00 1V88 46 route as in 1973
EDIT I had not noticed but there's a section on Continental Services at the back of the 1973 WTT which I attach here.

Sorry for all the edits.
I also have a North Kent WTT for 10/7/67 to 5/5/68 which shows the up service
07:20 75 Dover-Victoria 09:10 via Canterbury East, Chatham, Shortlands & Nunhead/Catford Loop per

Busaholic​

No down service other than a Q path through Chatham etc.
All the above ties in with the summary by

30907​

The timetable shows a couple of those headcode idiosyncrasies that used to turn up. The Night Ferry and what I presume is the summer relief both have a V as their letter, while the Canterbury East train has an S. V was normally used for inter-regional trains heading for the Western Region and S for the Scottish Region, but presumably there were no Class 1 trains heading for these regions on the South Eastern Division.

My 1967 WTT doesn't include four-character headcodes at all, and I think that although they appear in my 1973 WTT, nobody really cared about them or used them at the time. I could be wrong, but they certainly don't comply with the conventions you mention used by all the other regions.

 

[30907]

The timetable shows a couple of those headcode idiosyncrasies that used to turn up. The Night Ferry and what I presume is the summer relief both have a V as their letter, while the Canterbury East train has an S. V was normally used for inter-regional trains heading for the Western Region and S for the Scottish Region, but presumably there were no Class 1 trains heading for these regions on the South Eastern Division.

Correct. Especially heading away from the London area

The summer-only Folkestone path was for a relief boat (Ostend perhaps, they did sometimes work out of Folkestone?)

 

[Taunton]

EDIT I had not noticed but there's a section on Continental Services at the back of the 1973 WTT which I attach here.

That is the initial game plan, from the public timetable, but these services in high season had a considerable number of reliefs (as did the ships themselves, particularly on the Ostend run), sometimes two reliefs, and then because there was a considerable imbalance between Down and Up on any day, a lot of ecs to balance it. The Carriage Working Notices were much more precise in showing what could happen. A ship held up to about 2,000 passengers, with the 12-CEP formations holding about 800 passengers it might need the two reliefs for a full ship. A relief ship would mean five or even six trains.

Then there were often substantial delays on the inbound workings, due to late ship arrivals, customs facilities overwhelmed by crowds, bad weather in the Channel, or even delayed inbound services into Ostend or Calais. This was all anticipated in Q paths, plus what must have been some very ingenious Control management. Inbound services at Shortlands junction, for example, had an absolute toss-up whether they were going via Herne Hill or the Catford Loop, drivers were instructed to just accept what the signals showed.

Ostend was normally served by Belgian ships from Dover, but there was a period in the 1970s when the BR ships at Folkestone which served Boulogne did a couple of overnight round trips from there to Ostend as well, a pattern which came and then went.

 

[jfollows]

That is the initial game plan, from the public timetable.

Makes sense, good memories though, I only did a couple but they'll be the service to Calais pm via Folkestone Harbour in summer 1982 and the service from Ostend pm via Dover Marine in summer 1984, the former to connect into a train to Italy and the latter to connect out of the train from Moscow.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I believe Sleeping Car passengers were customs checked in London, but foot passengers (and their luggage) were checked at Dover. I always regret only ever having used the service as a foot passenger even if class 71 haulage was a benefit to both categories of passenger - although only sleeper passengers were able to enjoy what I believe was a class 09 onto (or off) the ferry.

On reflection I suspect the normal practice for international sleeper services in Western Europe would have prevailed where the passenger would complete a Customs Declaration Form on boarding and surrender this along with passport and travel tickets to the Sleeping Car Attendant which would normally ensure the passengers were undisturbed by officials during the night, unless of course said officials saw something worthy of further scrutiny in the documentation.

 

[StephenHunter]

On reflection I suspect the normal practice for international sleeper services in Western Europe would have prevailed where the passenger would complete a Customs Declaration Form on boarding and surrender this along with passport and travel tickets to the Sleeping Car Attendant which would normally ensure the passengers were undisturbed by officials during the night, unless of course said officials saw something worthy of further scrutiny in the documentation.

I believe that was done with the French half of the trip, with checks done on the move between Lille and Paris.

Am I right in thinking that the Immigration office is where the Belmond Pullman office is now, or was it somewhere else on Platform 1?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think the morning Up train commonly went via Chatham before electrification, recalling photos of it doing so behind a pair of L1 locos. It was sufficiently heavy to be normally double-headed.
..

As I have read, even with a Bulleid pacific as the train loco, it would normally take a 4-4-0 pilot (L, L1 or Schools) in order to ascend Sole Street Bank away from the Medway valley without slipping to a stand.

I believe Sleeping Car passengers were customs checked in London, but foot passengers (and their luggage) were checked at Dover. I always regret only ever having used the service as a foot passenger even if class 71 haulage was a benefit to both categories of passenger - although only sleeper passengers were able to enjoy what I believe was a class 09 onto (or off) the ferry.

In the up direction (hmmm, at least up in the UK) this was the case at Dover, I believe. I can't remember if I used it more than once, but certainly in November 71, coming from Paris, we plebian foot passengers were checked at Dover.

 

[etr221]

On reflection I suspect the normal practice for international sleeper services in Western Europe would have prevailed where the passenger would complete a Customs Declaration Form on boarding and surrender this along with passport and travel tickets to the Sleeping Car Attendant which would normally ensure the passengers were undisturbed by officials during the night, unless of course said officials saw something worthy of further scrutiny in the documentation.

My understanding was that the up Night Ferry (to London) was booked and expected to run non-stop, and that if for any reason it had to stop, the police were to be summoned pdq, to ensure that none of the sleeping car passengers (who hadn't gone through immigration - that would be done on arrival at Victoria) alighted and vanished into the English countryside before officially entering the country.

 

[30907]

As I have read, even with a Bulleid pacific as the train loco, it would normally take a 4-4-0 pilot (L, L1 or Schools) in order to ascend Sole Street Bank away from the Medway valley without slipping to a stand.

...not to mention the gradients out of Dover.
Intriguingly, a Google image search for Night Ferry steam throws up two single-headed Up trains (at Bickley and Victoria) and double-headed Light Pacifics but not the classic combination above (though I have seen plenty elsewhere).

PS I am, sadly, too young to have seen the train with steam - my bus to school left Shortlands station rather too early

 

[Busaholic]

PS I am, sadly, too young to have seen the train with steam - my bus to school left Shortlands station rather too early

Whereas my such sights occurred when the 160 bus was late arriving in Catford i.e. two or three times a week.

 

[youngpete]

Before electrification of the Chatham main line in 1959 the standard motive power for the up Night Ferry was an L1 piloting a Light Pacific. Over a period of about three years when I would have seen it two or three days a week at School I never saw anything different. Interestingly the Night Ferry went over to electric traction a week before all the other services on the Chatham main line.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Before electrification of the Chatham main line in 1959 the standard motive power for the up Night Ferry was an L1 piloting a Light Pacific. Over a period of about three years when I would have seen it two or three days a week at School I never saw anything different.

Thanks for that clarification. I was probably allowing something my dad told me to cloud my words here regarding the possible Schools pilot. My parents lived 30 yards from the main line near Pluckley before and during the war, and (from what I remember the tales being told) Pluckley signal box was only a 5 minute walk at the end of the garden. I specifically remember my dad saying he would sometimes go into the box and chat with the signalman in the evenings and one night (presumably pre-war) the signalman pulled off for the down Night Ferry and said it would be two Schools, described as "the usual motive power".

I've never seen any records of two Schools on the job (although, of course, it would have been possible - and indeed it might have happened on this evening), but I suspect the story may have been blurred over time and the pilot for the down run was also an older, 2-cylinder 4-4-0, with the train engine a Schools, although I'd have thought an N15 or Nelson would have been more likely pre-war.

Interestingly the Night Ferry went over to electric traction a week before all the other services on the Chatham main line.

Yes, a little odd. Presumably a Cl 71 (and not a Rainworth)?

 

[mailbyrail]

I travelled in the non-sleeping train from Paris a few times. I had to go through customs and immigration in Dover but my bicycle was registered as through baggage to London and I had to go through customs in Victoria with it separately.

 

[30907]

Whereas my such sights occurred when the 160 bus was late arriving in Catford i.e. two or three times a week.

But electric by then, which is as I remember it.

Yes, a little odd. Presumably a Cl 71 (and not a Rainworth)?

I didn't realise that. But as the rail was live and the loco available, why not? It was a self-contained working.

The Raworth/Bulleid locos 20001-3 were already diagrammed on the Central, so an E5000 .

 

[youngpete]

Thanks for that clarification. I was probably allowing something my dad told me to cloud my words here regarding the possible Schools pilot. My parents lived 30 yards from the main line near Pluckley before and during the war, and (from what I remember the tales being told) Pluckley signal box was only a 5 minute walk at the end of the garden. I specifically remember my dad saying he would sometimes go into the box and chat with the signalman in the evenings and one night (presumably pre-war) the signalman pulled off for the down Night Ferry and said it would be two Schools, described as "the usual motive power".

I've never seen any records of two Schools on the job (although, of course, it would have been possible - and indeed it might have happened on this evening), but I suspect the story may have been blurred over time and the pilot for the down run was also an older, 2-cylinder 4-4-0, with the train engine a Schools, although I'd have thought an N15 or Nelson would have been more likely pre-war.


Yes, a little odd. Presumably a Cl 71 (and not a Rainworth)?

Definitely a Cl 71

 

[Gloster]

I have unearthed my copy of that wonderful book Train Ferries of Western Europe by Patrick Ransome-Wallis (Ian Allan, 1968); it is pure chance that I found it today after it had been missing for fifteen months. Before the war it had been intended to use Lord Nelsons, but as they had little in reserve two 4-4-0 were used, usually an L and an L1, via Tonbridge. Post-war a Merchant Navy or a Light Pacific was used, the latter usually piloted by an L1. From June 1959 an electric was used and the train ran via Canterbury and Chatham. Pre-war it was 96 minutes down and 100 up for 400 tons via Tonbridge. The electric took 89 1/2 down and 110 up via Chatham, but with 850 tons.