No stations between Stockport & Navigation Road: could this change?

[Chester1]

I live at one of the intermediate stations on the route - I'd be more than happy to change at Alty if fairs were reduced to get to alty. Currently - my station to Altrincham is the same price as my station to Piccadilly so it would cost me more to buy a Metrolink ticket for all zones. Putting this aside though, I agree with Chester1 above - changing for the Metrolink usually doesn't slow one's journey down.

My main concern is freight capacity on the route as a whole. A lot of freight uses the mid cheshire line and if it wasn't for the bottle neck at Nav Rd. I feel it would get a lot more use (IE moving all Hindlow/Tunstead to the south quarry flows to that route rather than half of them) - so what would be done about this if Alty to Stockport was to become part of the metrolink?

I wonder how much fares distort demand. Deansgate-Castlefield and St Peters Square are much better located for journeys for a swathe of the city centre compared with Piccadilly, which is served by Altrincham trams anyway.

Tram Trains and freight are compatible. Sheffield tram trains share some track with freight trains and South Wales Metro will too. Tram trains would limit capacity but a timetable could be designed, especially if the line becomes fully double track (with all Altrincham trams being tram trains).

 

[geoffk]

Public transport demand for travel from Altrincham to Stockport and intermediate points in between is limited - all journeys on bus routes 370/371 that link Stockport and Altrincham are "provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester". The only significant demand for public transport in outer suburban Greater Manchester south of the River Mersey is for journeys to/from central Manchester, because parking is limited/difficult/expensive there. Baguley has a tram service and Gatley a train service, so there is little call for opening additional stations on this line other than the proposed one at Cheadle. Preserving a direct train link from Northwich/Knutsford to central Manchester is more important.

Northern's franchise commitment (?) a few years ago was for a second passenger train per hour from Manchester on the mid-Cheshire line as far as Northwich. This could then have been extended to Sandbach or Crewe via Middlewich if/when this line was brought up to passenger standards. I understood that it was lack of capacity between Piccadilly and Stockport which stymied this rather than the single track sections referred to above; for some time, there have been extras in both peaks, but to/from Stockport only. Since then of course we've had post-Covid retrenchment so nothing much can be expected in the near future!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Sooner rather than later, Greek Street bridge/ roundabout at the south end of Edgeley station will have to be replaced as it has terminal concrete cancer. It was built when the tunnels were opened up for WCML electrification. The proposal includes passive provision for a pair of Metrolink tracks which could run independently of the main-line to Edgeley station from the Altrincham line. The platform of the new station at Cheadle will be partially built on the disused northern side of the former double-track formation - it will be sufficiently wide, however, that it can be trimmed back should redoubling ever happen.

 

[tspaul26]

Public transport demand for travel from Altrincham to Stockport and intermediate points in between is limited - all journeys on bus routes 370/371 that link Stockport and Altrincham are "provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester".

And what of the other buses between Altrincham and Stockport, the majority of which are not subsidised?

 

[Chester1]

Northern's franchise commitment (?) a few years ago was for a second passenger train per hour from Manchester on the mid-Cheshire line as far as Northwich. This could then have been extended to Sandbach or Crewe via Middlewich if/when this line was brought up to passenger standards. I understood that it was lack of capacity between Piccadilly and Stockport which stymied this rather than the single track sections referred to above; for some time, there have been extras in both peaks, but to/from Stockport only. Since then of course we've had post-Covid retrenchment so nothing much can be expected in the near future!

Cutting the passenger trains back to Altrincham would solve half the mainline capacity problem with reopening Middlewich to passenger services. Crewe to Altrincham would be much easier to path than Crewe to Piccadilly via Altrincham. It would double frequency between Northwich and Altrincham too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Cutting the passenger trains back to Altrincham would solve half the mainline capacity problem with reopening Middlewich to passenger services. Crewe to Altrincham would be much easier to path than Crewe to Piccadilly via Altrincham. It would double frequency between Northwich and Altrincham too.

Is the section from Stockport to Altrincham (and vice-versa) carrying a reasonable regular passenger usage on weekdays? Also how would your aspiration affect the proposed station at Cheadle?

Public transport demand for travel from Altrincham to Stockport and intermediate points in between is limited - all journeys on bus routes 370/371 that link Stockport and Altrincham are "provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester".

Have you ever travelled on the service 11 route on that route, which provides public transport to the Mainwood estate in the Timperley area and the Newall Green and the Woodhouse Park routes in Wythenshawe?

 

[Rail Quest]

Tram Trains and freight are compatible. Sheffield tram trains share some track with freight trains and South Wales Metro will too. Tram trains would limit capacity but a timetable could be designed, especially if the line becomes fully double track (with all Altrincham trams being tram trains).

Thats an interesting idea. I suppose the main issue there would likely be that Deansgate Jnc. would become the main bottleneck, particularly for freight heading for Stockport

Is the section from Stockport to Altrincham (and vice-versa) carrying a reasonable regular passenger usage on weekdays? Also how would your aspiration affect the proposed station at Cheadle?

Speaking from experience, the peak time trains can be very busy between Manchester and all the way to Knutsford. Some of these passengers get on at Stockport as well. However, I actually wished the alty-deansgate section had the ability to run northern services fast over it as it would make journeys to Manchester a lot quicker though this is something that almost definitely wouldn't happen. Oh well, I can dream haha

 

[nw1]

I think you're right; I have working timetables for 1988 in which the Chester services went via Sale and for 1990 in which they went via Stockport, although the EMU service Altrincham-Crewe still ran in 1990 as you say.

I can partly back that up: I travelled (still on first-gen DMU) from Knutsford to Chester in September 1988 and seem to remember that the timetable was basically still the same as that of the mid-80s, with the on-the-hour departure from Oxford Road.

Didn't use the lines in the area again until 1993, by which time Metrolink had opened and the service diverted. But not sure exactly what year it switched. Surprised it switched before Metrolink though, as the result would have been a longer journey into Manchester without the compensation of having Metrolink to interchange with. I presume a lot of people from the line changed trains to the classic EMU at Altrincham for a more direct journey.

As an aside I wonder which route a typical Knutsford-Manchester passenger takes today? Stay on the ex-BR service despite the circuitous route, or interchange into Metrolink?

 

[gnolife]

And what of the other buses between Altrincham and Stockport, the majority of which are not subsidised?

I don't have any actual statistics, but as far as I am aware, the bulk of demand on route 11 from Altrincham is to points no further than Benchill, and from the Stockport end, for journeys no further than Wythenshawe Hospital. There's very little use that I've seen for Altrincham to Gatley, Cheadle, or Stockport, or for Stockport to Baguley, Timperley, or Altrincham.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't have any actual statistics, but as far as I am aware, the bulk of demand on route 11 from Altrincham is to points no further than Benchill, and from the Stockport end, for journeys no further than Wythenshawe Hospital. There's very little use that I've seen for Altrincham to Gatley, Cheadle, or Stockport, or for Stockport to Baguley, Timperley, or Altrincham.

Cheadle has a number of radiating bus service routes, including the number 11, that cover a wide range of places and Gatley, although quite a well-heeled area has its own railway station that the number 11 gives a useful connection to it . The 11 from Altrincham is rather more than a Benchill destination server as it serves the large Wythenshawe Hospital complex and the Roundthorn Industrial Estate, as will be seen by the viewing of passenger loadings that enter into Wythenshawe bus station for shopping and The Forum.

 

[gnolife]

Cheadle has a number of radiating bus service routes, including the number 11, that cover a wide range of places and Gatley, although quite a well-heeled area has its own railway station that the number 11 gives a useful connection to it . The 11 from Altrincham is rather more than a Benchill destination server as it serves the large Wythenshawe Hospital complex and the Roundthorn Industrial Estate, as will be seen by the viewing of passenger loadings that enter into Wythenshawe bus station for shopping and The Forum.

I never said it just served Benchill - I said that the demand from Altrincham was to points no further than Benchill -

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I never said it just served Benchill - I said that the demand from Altrincham was to points no further than Benchill -

I know of quite a number of people who travel from the Roundthorn Industrial estate to both Gatley and to Cheadle on the 11 and of course the catchment area for Wythenshawe Hospital is wide, as it has a number of special departments that people are referred to.

 

[northwichcat]

I lived in Chester when I joined the site. Unless your final destination is close to Piccadilly station changing at Altrincham will be similar or faster journey time.

In the northbound direction you won't wait more than 6 minutes at Altrincham (Mon-Sat daytime) but in the southbound direction it becomes more difficult changing at Altrincham.

If you pick catch the Lancaster to Manchester Airport train between Deansgate and Piccadilly and you miss the Chester departure at Piccadilly due to a delay, then at least you're entitled to Delay Repay.

If you instead catch the tram towards Altrincham and one doesn't show up and the next one is terminated at Timperley, then you get nothing when you see the Chester train pull up alongside the tram you're on at Navigation Road, other than a 60 minute wait in Altrincham. It's happened to me twice.

 

[Chester1]

Is the section from Stockport to Altrincham (and vice-versa) carrying a reasonable regular passenger usage on weekdays? Also how would your aspiration affect the proposed station at Cheadle?

I would run 2 tram trains per hour between Altrincham and Stockport but with rest of capacity being used for airport services. The 2040 proposal of Timperley and Stockport to Airport would seem to be best option for handling the Altrincham - Navigation Road bottle neck. This would still exist if it was converted to double heavy rail tracks with existing Metrolink services using Tram Trains. 12 tph Metrolink and 1tph freight could be managed on the section because its short. Cheadle could stay as planned or be doubled. The standard Metrolink 5tph for services to Stockport and the Airport would be better for Cheadle residents than 1tph, maybe 2tph to Piccadilly.

In the northbound direction you won't wait more than 6 minutes at Altrincham (Mon-Sat daytime) but in the southbound direction it becomes more difficult changing at Altrincham.

If you pick catch the Lancaster to Manchester Airport train between Deansgate and Piccadilly and you miss the Chester departure at Piccadilly due to a delay, then at least you're entitled to Delay Repay.

If you instead catch the tram towards Altrincham and one doesn't show up and the next one is terminated at Timperley, then you get nothing when you see the Chester train pull up alongside the tram you're on at Navigation Road, other than a 60 minute wait in Altrincham. It's happened to me twice.

Tram train not an idea solution but it would be based on the assumption that most journeys will take place on Metrolink, with Chester to Altrincham origin journeys into Manchester the minority.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the speculative forum? The OP has the answer to the title question.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would run 2 tram trains per hour between Altrincham and Stockport but with rest of capacity being used for airport services. The 2040 proposal of Timperley and Stockport to Airport would seem to be best option for handling the Altrincham - Navigation Road bottle neck. This would still exist if it was converted to double heavy rail tracks with existing Metrolink services using Tram Trains. 12 tph Metrolink and 1tph freight could be managed on the section because its short. Cheadle could stay as planned or be doubled. The standard Metrolink 5tph for services to Stockport and the Airport would be better for Cheadle residents than 1tph, maybe 2tph to Piccadilly.

Do you not forsee any problems with the scheduling of the freight services if the line remained in its current formation if the monies were not forthcoming to double the tracks. Have you seen any intimation that Network Rail have any such works planned in the foreseeable future.? The year 2040 is still seventeen years in the future.

I do agree with you that whilst matters remain as they are, this thread should be on the Speculative Forum.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Is the section from Stockport to Altrincham (and vice-versa) carrying a reasonable regular passenger usage on weekdays?

I was on the 1020(ish) from Stockport today. The 2-car 150 was already very well loaded, and remained so for the entire journey. The vast majority of passengers who were onboard when the service left Stockport, as well as those boarding at points onwards from Stockport, were all travelling through to Chester.

 

[The Planner]

Sooner rather than later, Greek Street bridge/ roundabout at the south end of Edgeley station will have to be replaced as it has terminal concrete cancer. It was built when the tunnels were opened up for WCML electrification. The proposal includes passive provision for a pair of Metrolink tracks which could run independently of the main-line to Edgeley station from the Altrincham line. The platform of the new station at Cheadle will be partially built on the disused northern side of the former double-track formation - it will be sufficiently wide, however, that it can be trimmed back should redoubling ever happen.

Its in the plan as a straight renewal, no passive provision that I know of.

 

[Chester1]

I was on the 1020(ish) from Stockport today. The 2-car 150 was already very well loaded, and remained so for the entire journey. The vast majority of passengers who were onboard when the service left Stockport, as well as those boarding at points onwards from Stockport, were all travelling through to Chester.

People travelling the whole length of the service are doing so because pricing policy. There are two faster services including one from Piccadilly.

 

[snowball]

Its in the plan as a straight renewal, no passive provision that I know of.

I believe the local authorities are agitating for more, according to posts in the Greater Manchester Transport section of Skyscrapercity.

 

[daodao]

And what of the other buses between Altrincham and Stockport, the majority of which are not subsidised?

Is the section from Stockport to Altrincham (and vice-versa) carrying a reasonable regular passenger usage on weekdays? Also how would your aspiration affect the proposed station at Cheadle?


Have you ever travelled on the service 11 route on that route, which provides public transport to the Mainwood estate in the Timperley area and the Newall Green and the Woodhouse Park routes in Wythenshawe?

While route 11 does run from Stockport to Altrincham, it takes a very convoluted route and takes 84 minutes for the journey (weekdays, mid-day) compared to 51 minutes on direct route 370 at the same time of the day. Route 11 is primarily for local journeys, including to serve key traffic generators like Wythenshawe Hospital. Its existence as a relatively frequent (every 20 minutes on weekdays) non-subsidised route is unlikely to provide any guide to the potential benefit of opening intermediate stations on the Altrincham-Stockport rail line other than at Cheadle. Although as a car owner, I rarely use local buses, I have actually used route 11 to travel from Altrincham to Wythenshawe Hospital and back because of the difficulties with car parking there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

While route 11 does run from Stockport to Altrincham, it takes a very convoluted route and takes 84 minutes for the journey (weekdays, mid-day) compared to 51 minutes on direct route 370 at the same time of the day. Route 11 is primarily for local journeys, including to serve key traffic generators like Wythenshawe Hospital. Its existence as a relatively frequent (every 20 minutes on weekdays) non-subsidised route is unlikely to provide any guide to the potential benefit of opening intermediate stations on the Altrincham-Stockport rail line other than at Cheadle. Although as a car owner, I rarely use local buses, I have actually used route 11 to travel from Altrincham to Wythenshawe Hospital and back because of the difficulties with car parking there.

Just looking at the portion of that journey that is within Trafford, the 11 does provide a direct link from Altrincham Interchange and the actual town centre of Timperley.

 

[The Planner]

I believe the local authorities are agitating for more, according to posts in the Greater Manchester Transport section of Skyscrapercity.

If they stump up the cash then it can be done, but then its in the world of resdesign and pushes the timescales out, which if the bridge is as knackered as people say isnt a good idea.

 

[tspaul26]

Although as a car owner, I rarely use local buses

And how often do you travel by train on the Mid Cheshire Line?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they stump up the cash then it can be done, but then its in the world of resdesign and pushes the timescales out, which if the bridge is as knackered as people say isn't a good idea.

One must remember where a sizable percentage of local authority finance comes from.

 

[Greybeard33]

If they stump up the cash then it can be done, but then its in the world of resdesign and pushes the timescales out, which if the bridge is as knackered as people say isnt a good idea.

The GMCA applied for City Region Sustainable Transport Settlement funding for the Greek Street bridge widening, but the DfT refused on the grounds that the Stockport tram-train proposal is only aspirational, with no funding allocated to develop a business case at this stage.

I understand that there is a similar issue with renewal of the Stockholm Road bridge over the Edgeley to Northenden line just west of Edgeley junction. GMCA wants the replacement bridge to replicate the redundant span that allows for two additional tracks, long since lifted. The Network Rail design is only wide enough to span the current two tracks.

Unless local funding is found, I presume both replacement bridges will proceed to the NR designs, with no provision for tram-train tracks.
Edit: I have since seen, in the papers for the July GMCA Bee Network Committee, that the NR selected design for the replacement Greek Street bridge has adequate provision for tram-train and so CRSTS funding will be limited to making provision for cycle lanes on the bridge deck. Some CRSTS funds previously earmarked for Greek Street will be redirected to the Stockholm Road bridge replacement. This will cover the additional cost of like for like spans over the railway, allowing for tram-train, and cycle lanes on the bridge deck.

 

[daodao]

The GMCA applied for City Region Sustainable Transport Settlement funding for the Greek Street bridge widening, but the DfT refused on the grounds that the Stockport tram-train proposal is only aspirational, with no funding allocated to develop a business case at this stage.

I understand that there is a similar issue with renewal of the Stockholm Road bridge over the Edgeley to Northenden line just west of Edgeley junction. GMCA wants the replacement bridge to replicate the redundant span that allows for two additional tracks, long since lifted. The Network Rail design is only wide enough to span the current two tracks.

Unless local funding is found, I presume both replacement bridges will proceed to the NR designs, with no provision for tram-train tracks.

Quite right too. TfGM's daft idea for orbital tram-train routes is fanciful. There really isn't the demand to warrant such massive expenditure. The existing Stockport-Altrincham train service is a mere accident of the desire to continue to provide some sort of through passenger train service from Manchester to Knutsford and Northwich, when the MSJ&A line was converted to Metrolink in the early 1990s.

 

[edwin_m]

Quite right too. TfGM's daft idea for orbital tram-train routes is fanciful. There really isn't the demand to warrant such massive expenditure. The existing Stockport-Altrincham train service is a mere accident of the desire to continue to provide some sort of through passenger train service from Manchester to Knutsford and Northwich, when the MSJ&A line was converted to Metrolink in the early 1990s.

This part of any orbital route is likely to have a better case than other parts. Firstly there's a railway there already that provides a good part of the infrastructure needed, and secondly there is the major destination of the airport, and in future the nearby HS2 station, that needs to have good access from nearby suburbs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This part of any orbital route is likely to have a better case than other parts. Firstly there's a railway there already that provides a good part of the infrastructure needed, and secondly there is the major destination of the airport, and in future the nearby HS2 station, that needs to have good access from nearby suburbs.

Noting the size of the current network and the possibility of a Government of a different hue on the horizon, what have the Labour Party had to say about their view on funding new extensions to the tramway networks in England?

 

[daodao]

Noting the size of the current network and the possibility of a Government of a different hue on the horizon, what have the Labour Party had to say about their view on funding new extensions to the tramway networks in England?

There is no specific reference to light rail or tramways in Labour's recent policy platform on transport, which is all rather vague.

Revealed: Full draft policy platform that could form 2024 Labour manifesto​

Deliver 21st century transport​

• Bring our railways into public ownership as contracts with existing operators expire, consistent with our fiscal rules, putting passengers at the heart of our railways and investing in a world–class network
• Deliver Northern Powerhouse Rail and High Speed 2 in full…Deliver a long–term strategy for rail…give communities a greater say in local rail services
• Reform our broken bus system…Give communities the ability to take on powers to franchise local bus services… lift the ban on municipal bus ownership
• Support the principle of Clean Air Zones…However, they must be phased in carefully…and should be accompanied with a just transition plan
• Encourage more people to walk and cycle wherever possible by supporting local authorities to provide safe, accessible walking routes and cycling infrastructure

Revealed: Full draft policy platform that could form 2024 Labour manifesto - LabourList

Labour has drafted its most comprehensive policy programme yet for a Keir Starmer government, drawing up a provisional…

labourlist.org

The last Labour Secretary of State who made major decisions about light rail/tramways was Alistair Darling (now Baron Darling of Roulanish) who in 2005 was responsible for the cancellation of several major light rail schemes, including a major extension to Manchester Metrolink (later reversed) and the proposed Leeds Supertram.

Given Sir Keir Starmer's timid approach to spending commitments, I would not expect a change in the UK government in the next 18 months to lead to the funding of any new extensions to the tramway networks in England, such as the introduction of tram-trains on the Stockport-Altrincham line, with the creation of additional stops, any time soon.

 

[Burton Road]

Given Sir Keir Starmer's timid approach to spending commitments, I would not expect a change in the UK government in the next 18 months to lead to the funding of any new extensions to the tramway networks in England, such as the introduction of tram-trains on the Stockport-Altrincham line, with the creation of additional stops, any time soon.

The situation is slightly different now, because the mayoral authorities have a lot more discretion over what they can and can't spend their budgets on than the PTEs did under Darling. Rather than bid for funds for individual projects, they are granted budgets (City Regional Sustainable Transport Settlements) for five years and then have to seek permission to use them for big projects. There are no major rapid transit schemes in the current CRSTS for Greater Manchester (running to 2026/27) but the likelihood is that Labour will stick with this model in the next spending review period, so it's not a case of being able to cancel tramway projects to save money/having to find extra money for them. So it certainly won't happen soon, but that it has relatively fewer hurdles to jump should it be progressed.