Non-London frieght on GEML south

[Tobbes]

Genuine question: how much capacity on GEML, the NLL and the WCML would be freed up if freight from Felixstowe (& Harwich?) not bound for London were all sent via Bury St Eds and Ely? Having gone to the trouble and expense of building the Ipswich North Curve, I'm somewhat surprised that any non-London freight is routed via London.

Many thanks!

 

[swt_passenger]

Genuine question: how much capacity on GEML, the NLL and the WCML would be freed up if freight from Felixstowe (& Harwich?) not bound for London were all sent via Bury St Eds and Ely? Having gone to the trouble and expense of building the Ipswich North Curve, I'm somewhat surprised that any non-London freight is routed via London.

Many thanks!

I have no exact numbers, however it’s usually been said that there’s loads of other freight services expected to make use of the paths via the NLL, eg from London Gateway. It has never been expected that use of the NLL will be seriously reduced.

 

[Tobbes]

I have no exact numbers, however it’s usually been said that there’s loads of other freight services expected to make use of the paths via the NLL, eg from London Gateway. It has never been expected that use of the NLL will be seriously reduced.

Thanks, that's helpful - and apologies for the typo in the thread title!

 

[swt_passenger]

I think you also have to consider that it’s still the most logical route to the west, and to Daventry rail terminal.

 

[Tobbes]

I think you also have to consider that it’s still the most logical route to the west, and to Daventry rail terminal.

Fair point - it will presumably not be when EWR opens and you can run via Bedford (at which point the Northampton - Bedford line would have been very useful).

 

[swt_passenger]

Fair point - it will presumably not be when EWR opens and you can run via Bedford (at which point the Northampton - Bedford line would have been very useful).

Yes, but east of Bedford is relatively long term, as discussed often. The EWR section that’s subject to TWA application doesn’t help much for freight from East Anglia at all.

 

[Tobbes]

Yes, but east of Bedford is relatively long term, as discussed often. The EWR section that’s subject to TWA application doesn’t help much for freight from East Anglia at all.

Agreed, I'm looking longer term, but it does point to EWR Central Section taking much more freight than it appears to have done before closure.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I suspect that going via Stratford is a fair bit quicker if one's destination is on or near the West Coast Mainline, than wending one's way across from Peterborough through Oakham to the old Midland line and onwards to those places. Also, going via Stratford allows electric locos to be used.

 

[Tobbes]

I suspect that going via Stratford is a fair bit quicker if one's destination is on or near the West Coast Mainline, than wending one's way across from Peterborough through Oakham to the old Midland line and onwards to those places. Also, going via Stratford allows electric locos to be used.

True, but most intermodals on GEML seem to be class 66 hauled - I rarely see pairs of 86s.

 

[Ianno87]

I suspect that going via Stratford is a fair bit quicker if one's destination is on or near the West Coast Mainline, than wending one's way across from Peterborough through Oakham to the old Midland line and onwards to those places. Also, going via Stratford allows electric locos to be used.

Not sure there's actually much in it - the mileage (thus fuel cost) is shorter via Peterborough I'm fairly sure.

Paths via Peterborough tend to be cleaner, whereas via London tends to involve recessing around Wembley for a bit.

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite a lot of the ‘non London’ freight on the NLL isn’t for the Midlands and North either. There’s a decent amount of aggregates traffic to /from the SW, plus intermodal to Avonmouth.

Essentially, the Ipswich Curve, plus all the future upgrades on the cross country route are to deal with growth.

 

[Freightmaster]

Having gone to the trouble and expense of building the Ipswich North Curve, I'm somewhat surprised that any non-London freight is routed via London.

The main benefit of the 'Bacon' curve at Ipswich has been to allow trains running between Felixstowe and
Leeds/Doncaster/Tees Dock/Wakefield/Rotherham (i.e trains which were routed via Ely in the first place)
to access the GEML towards Stowmarket directly, without having to reverse in Ipswich yard. In addition
it is also a huge help when the route via London is closed at weekends because of engineering work,
as is the case for the next three weekends!

Unfortunately, due to capacity constraints in the Soham/Ely area, plus long signalling block sections between
Manea and Whittlesea, there is little scope for the mass rerouting of weekday Freightliner services to Crewe,
Trafford Park, Ditton, Lawley Street, etc. via Ely for a few years yet...



MARK

 

[Bald Rick]

The main benefit of the 'Bacon' curve at Ipswich has been to allow trains running between Felixstowe and
Leeds/Doncaster/Tees Dock/Wakefield/Rotherham (i.e trains which were routed via Ely in the first place)
to access the GEML towards Stowmarket directly, without having to reverse in Ipswich yard. In addition
it is also a huge help when the route via London is closed at weekends because of engineering work,
as is the case for the next three weekends!

Unfortunately, due to capacity constraints in the Soham/Ely area, plus long signalling block sections between
Manea and Whittlesea, there is little scope for the mass rerouting of weekday Freightliner services to Crewe,
Trafford Park, Ditton, Lawley Street, etc. via Ely for a few years yet...



MARK

Not to mention the Leicester area, and the small matter of a LOT of level crossings.

 

[Tobbes]

Thanks to all.

 

[richieb1971]

Werrington Junction is getting modernized, I would have thought that was a nod for more traffic as well.

 

[TheBigD]

Unfortunately, due to capacity constraints in the Soham/Ely area, plus long signalling block sections between
Manea and Whittlesea, there is little scope for the mass rerouting of weekday Freightliner services to Crewe,
Trafford Park, Ditton, Lawley Street, etc. via Ely for a few years yet...

MARK

I'll add to your list of constraints...

Stowmarket down loop too short for most liners to be recessed. ..
Single lead Haughley Junction...
Bury up loop to short to recess liners...
Only space for one liner to be recessed at Ely...
Up+Down loops at March too short for liners...

The lack of loops long enough for liners is a major issue when there's disruption...

The absolute block sections Manea-Stonea and Three Horseshoes-Whittlesea-Kings Dyke aren't a major issue providing the trains are 5+ minutes apart, though I accept they do limit overall capacity...

As an aside when ECML services and all (usually via London) container trains were diverted all weekend via March/Ely back in February 2017 there were 196 movements through Whittlesea on the Saturday between 0600 & 2200... You would struggle to fit many more trains in...

 

[Railwaysceptic]

True, but most intermodals on GEML seem to be class 66 hauled - I rarely see pairs of 86s.

I don't recall ever seeing a freight train on the North London Line which was electric hauled. I'm sure there must be some, but they're rare. There is a now a small handful on the Barking/Gospel Oak line.

 

[Bald Rick]

As an aside when ECML services and all (usually via London) container trains were diverted all weekend via March/Ely back in February 2017 there were 196 movements through Whittlesea on the Saturday between 0600 & 2200... You would struggle to fit many more trains in...

Wow. I bet the bobby was crossing his/her legs a few times.

 

[Tobbes]

I'll add to your list of constraints...

Stowmarket down loop too short for most liners to be recessed. ..
Single lead Haughley Junction...
Bury up loop to short to recess liners...
Only space for one liner to be recessed at Ely...
Up+Down loops at March too short for liners...

Does the land exist to add/extend the loops in these locations? Presumably reverting to a double junction at Haughley is feasible? What sort of time/money are we talking about here?

 

[TheBigD]

Does the land exist to add/extend the loops in these locations? Presumably reverting to a double junction at Haughley is feasible? What sort of time/money are we talking about here?

No idea about Stowmarket...

Think Haughley Junction is mention in the various route studies but no idea what speed or layout could be installed ..

At Bury St Edmunds the station and the A14 bridge either end of the loop mean it can't be extended long enough for 775m liners...

At March you'd need to close 2 level crossings and widen the river bridges at March South... If Network Rail ever decide to add long loops on the March line, my guess is that you'd probably be looking at Stonea to Manea as the easiest to do but would still require land take etc... There used to be an up loop before March West Junction (removed in the 1980's) but I don't think it was long enough for today's liners...

 

[Tobbes]

No idea about Stowmarket...

Think Haughley Junction is mention in the various route studies but no idea what speed or layout could be installed ..

At Bury St Edmunds the station and the A14 bridge either end of the loop mean it can't be extended long enough for 775m liners...

At March you'd need to close 2 level crossings and widen the river bridges at March South... If Network Rail ever decide to add long loops on the March line, my guess is that you'd probably be looking at Stonea to Manea as the easiest to do but would still require land take etc... There used to be an up loop before March West Junction (removed in the 1980's) but I don't think it was long enough for today's liners...

Fascinating, thanks very much.

 

[Class 170101]

There are loops in Peterborough to recess freight before it carries onto Oakham or GE/GN Joint Line.

London Thames Gateway freight doesn't have to use the NLL these days as it can go via the Gospel Oak to Barking line instead. There are more paths this way too.

The level crossings via March are an issue regardless.

 

[swt_passenger]

London Thames Gateway freight doesn't have to use the NLL these days as it can go via the Gospel Oak to Barking line instead. There are more paths this way too.

I think that’s widely understood, but the majority still end up on the section of NLL west of Gospel Oak anyway.

 

[TheBigD]

There are loops in Peterborough to recess freight before it carries onto Oakham or GE/GN Joint Line.

No access to/from GE/GN Joint Line from the two way goods loop at Peterborough... Trains have to use platform 4, 5 or 6 to gain access to/from the joint line... For example 4Z26 sits in platform 5 at Peterborough from about 1620 to 1700ish...

 

[Class 170101]

No access to/from GE/GN Joint Line from the two way goods loop at Peterborough... Trains have to use platform 4, 5 or 6 to gain access to/from the joint line... For example 4Z26 sits in platform 5 at Peterborough from about 1620 to 1700ish...

oops my bad. But how does one get away with that it must make operating Peterborough more challenging.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The single lead Haughley Junction could have been doubled on renewal pre 2012 , certain folk did not agree.

 

[Tobbes]

The single lead Haughley Junction could have been doubled on renewal pre 2012 , certain folk did not agree.

That seems a pretty odd choice, @ChiefPlanner - what was the (ir)rationale? And given normal wear and tear, when would it normally be up for renewal next?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That seems a pretty odd choice, @ChiefPlanner - what was the (ir)rationale? And given normal wear and tear, when would it normally be up for renewal next?

Probably in 20+ years - put it this way , an enhancement onto a renewal was supported by the operators - freight and passenger. It was not to be.....

 

[Bald Rick]

That seems a pretty odd choice, @ChiefPlanner - what was the (ir)rationale? And given normal wear and tear, when would it normally be up for renewal next?

It was renewed in a way that means adding in the extra bits for a double junction can be done without taking up the existing. It’s proposed for CP6, at which point Norwich becomes the end of a branch line.

 

[Tobbes]

Probably in 20+ years - put it this way , an enhancement onto a renewal was supported by the operators - freight and passenger. It was not to be.....

Ugh, it's this sort of thing that is completely exasperating. Hopefully it will be replaced and upgraded much sooner than that.