Norfolk Orbital Railway

[Tobbes]

I can't seem to find a thread that's open on the Norfolk Orbital proposal. I was very curious about it - Norfolk has lost a great deal of intra-county connectivity since 1965 - but I was wondering if there was any technical assessment of what NOR would acheive - e.g., indicative journey times from Fakenham-Norwich or Sheringham-Dereham?

The Wensum Valley is very pretty but it's pretty devoid of people, and if the exam question was "where in Norwich would folk in West Norfolk want to get to?", it's not clear to me that it would be Norwich Thorpe - UEA and the Hosptial are well to the west, and the majority of Norwich is well to the north of Norwich station. Have trams/tram trains been considered for Norwich?

Grateful for thoughts!

 

[telstarbox]

Who is proposing / funding it?

 

[JonathanH]

I was wondering if there was any technical assessment of what NOR would acheive - e.g., indicative journey times from Fakenham-Norwich or Sheringham-Dereham?

Is it any more than a heritage railway aspiration with trains running at 25mph? Unless such a route were to attract subsidy, it isn't clear how it could operate commercially through fairly sparsely populated countryside, other than as a heritage railway

Even Dereham to Norwich via Wymondham would be a long way round relative to a direct bus.

 

[bspahh]

(checks that this the speculative discussion forum)

This is a story from November 2021

Norfolk orbital railway moves a step closer | ITV News

A group is planning to restore tracks between Holt and Dereham to connect with existing lines | ITV News Anglia

www.itv.com

There was a site norfolk-orbital-railway.co.uk which has disappeared. You can still read a copy here:

An Orbital Railway for Norfolk - Norfolk Orbital Railway

Welcome to our website, this is very much ‘work in progress’ so feel free to revisit on a regular basis to catch up with updates. The Norfolk Orbital Railway (The Orbital), managed by the Melton Constable Trust, is a project designed to provide the infrastructure for a multi purpose transport...

web.archive.org

A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. I think this one has a few more to go.

 

[Tobbes]

It certainly does - especially in Great Ryburgh where the alignment has been lost under a maltings. The loss of the website is also not a great sign.

 

[30907]

This is a new one on me - I can't see any significant market for Fakenham-Holt (-Sheringham), or intermediate traffic generally. Dereham-Norwich is probably within the bounds of possibility.

 

[Tobbes]

This is a new one on me - I can't see any significant market for Fakenham-Holt (-Sheringham), or intermediate traffic generally. Dereham-Norwich is probably within the bounds of possibility.

i can see (at a pinch) Norwich - Dereham - Swaffham - King's Lynn, but the population density north of there just doesn't feel like commuter rail territory. Good luck to all involved as a heritage iniative, however.

 

[TheEdge]

A tiny but very vocal group think it's a brilliant idea and they keep (IMHO) fleecing people to buy 6ft of land here and 200m of trackbed there. When they presented plans to put a level crossing on a roundabout and run the line alongside the A148 at Holt (practically sharing the land) they accused anyone who pointed out in was an insane idea that would never be approved as negative people who just want them to fail.

It's really just a pipe dream of a few people who think they can run their giant train set round Norfolk.

 

[Tobbes]

A tiny but very vocal group think it's a brilliant idea and they keep (IMHO) fleecing people to buy 6ft of land here and 200m of trackbed there. When they presented plans to put a level crossing on a roundabout and run the line alongside the A148 at Holt (practically sharing the land) they accused anyone who pointed out in was an insane idea that would never be approved as negative people who just want them to fail.

It's really just a pipe dream of a few people who think they can run their giant train set round Norfolk.

It did sort of feel this way. And I get that the A148 in Holt and the A47 (between Swaffham and Dereham) have been built over dismantled railway lines which is annoying, short sighted etc etc, and that to do Holt properly, what you should acutally do is move the A148 further south (it's a bypass, after all) and then return the railway to where it was. But this would require a (pretty) compelling business case, which I just don't see. It seems noteworthy to me that the North Norfolk Railway don't seem to be pushing hard to extend into Holt proper, or go on to the M&GN's spiritual home at Melton Constable.

Said vocal group seems to be raising grant money for land acquisition, which means some of the big funders thinks that it has a future, so who knows?

 

[transportphoto]

A tiny but very vocal group think it's a brilliant idea and they keep (IMHO) fleecing people to buy 6ft of land here and 200m of trackbed there. When they presented plans to put a level crossing on a roundabout and run the line alongside the A148 at Holt (practically sharing the land) they accused anyone who pointed out in was an insane idea that would never be approved as negative people who just want them to fail.

It's really just a pipe dream of a few people who think they can run their giant train set round Norfolk.

I couldn’t have put it better if I tried, I really can’t see this project having a future. It’d happen if it had political backing, but it hasn’t.

 

[MP33]

With a proposal to put a level crossing on a roundabout and what amounts to street running on an A road. I see that the rule of rail re-instatements is being followed that the re-instated line must follow the exact route of the original. No deviation can be considered.

 

[Tobbes]

With a proposal to put a level crossing on a roundabout and what amounts to street running on an A road. I see that the rule of rail re-instatements is being followed that the re-instated line must follow the exact route of the original. No deviation can be considered.

I'm not sure that that's entirely fair, @MP33 - having cycled around there, the railway picked the optimum route, which was then built over for the bypass. It (may) be possible to squeeze a single line in north of the road, and push the roundabout south a bit and run the track across the Primary School's playground, but these are pretty big political asks! It seems to me that if you were really serious about this, you'd just build a new bypass to the south of Holt (which is itself exapanding) and either narrow the existing road or close it, recreating Holt Station approxmiately where it was, which would actually serve the town, rather than push it furher south (which arguably wouldn't).

 

[A0wen]

It seems noteworthy to me that the North Norfolk Railway don't seem to be pushing hard to extend into Holt proper, or go on to the M&GN's spiritual home at Melton Constable.

I think the NNR at ~ 6 miles is pretty much the optimum length for a heritage line. Longer than that and the costs of maintenance and operation all creep up. They have a round journey time of an hour which if you've got kids is long enough, the ticket price is £50 for a family of 4, which isn't excessive - the West Somerset is £75, the North Yorks Moors for the full line, not including Whitby is £66.

The NNR has also got some nice scenery along the coast, not sure what they'd get heading inland from Holt.

 

[30907]

i can see (at a pinch) Norwich - Dereham - Swaffham - King's Lynn, but the population density north of there just doesn't feel like commuter rail territory.

Quite. That route lasted a few years longer than the rest IIRC.

 

[dk1]

It’s something most of us working in the rail industry in this neck of the woods find hilarious. Raises its head every 6 months or so with the local rag the Eastern Daily Press.

 

[Tobbes]

I think the NNR at ~ 6 miles is pretty much the optimum length for a heritage line. Longer than that and the costs of maintenance and operation all creep up. They have a round journey time of an hour which if you've got kids is long enough, the ticket price is £50 for a family of 4, which isn't excessive - the West Somerset is £75, the North Yorks Moors for the full line, not including Whitby is £66.

The NNR has also got some nice scenery along the coast, not sure what they'd get heading inland from Holt.

Holt is an attractive destination, and Holt (NNR) is a fair walk from the town itself, I suppose.

It’s something most of us working in the rail industry in this neck of the woods find hilarious. Raises its head every 6 months or so with the local rag the Eastern Daily Press.

Fair enough - I'm struggling with what problem it solves. Fakenham - Norwich would seem to be Melton (reverse) all stations to Cromer (reverse) existing calling pattern to Thorpe. Given that Sheringham - Norwich is 57 - 69 mins, so even if the NNR was upgraded to 60 mph running, it is hard to see Fakenham - Norwich in much under 90 mins, or 10 mins longer than the existing bus timings (and in the car, half that because you're not on a scenic tour of Norfolk, as pretty as that is.)

And before anyone shouts "it's orbital, go the other way", there's this small issue at Gt Ryburgh:https://www.google.com/maps/@52.808...4!1srIKKgQBtsUGqa0fKIqQJmw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

But if money is no object (or the maltings moves)....

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think this idea has been around in some form or another for decades - pretty much since the Mid Norfolk Railway reopened. I remember reading about it in one of the railway magazines, probably some time in the 1990s.

 

[adrock1976]

i can see (at a pinch) Norwich - Dereham - Swaffham - King's Lynn, but the population density north of there just doesn't feel like commuter rail territory. Good luck to all involved as a heritage iniative, however.

If this is not the case already, it would be far better to have an integrated bus link with it showing in the railway fares system.

Regarding Kings Lynn, although it does have a railway station and is in the county of Norfolk, there are no direct trains to its county town of Norwich. Presently, you have to change trains in a different county (Ely, Cambridgeshire). Furthermore, another quirk of Kings Lynn is that it is allocated a high end PE postcode (centred around Peterborough, which when the whole of the UK had postcodes rolled out in the mid 1960s, Peterborough was in Northamptonshire until 1974, then became part of Cambridgeshire).

 

[MarkyT]

It certainly does - especially in Great Ryburgh where the alignment has been lost under a maltings. The loss of the website is also not a great sign.

A new diversion of two miles or so around Great Ryburgh to the east of the village (yellow) might be technically feasible, as the landscape following the river is fairly flat. An alternative western route around the village (orange) would have to climb more steeply but might still be possible.

 

[A0wen]

Regarding Kings Lynn, although it does have a railway station and is in the county of Norfolk, there are no direct trains to its county town of Norwich. Presently, you have to change trains in a different county (Ely, Cambridgeshire). Furthermore, another quirk of Kings Lynn is that it is allocated a high end PE postcode (centred around Peterborough, which when the whole of the UK had postcodes rolled out in the mid 1960s, Peterborough was in Northamptonshire until 1974, then became part of Cambridgeshire).

Not this whole "county town" thing *again*.

It's a complete and utter red herring.

There are simply loads of places which don't have a rail link to their county town and it really doesn't matter. County towns are little more than ceremonial in most cases.

To give other examples:

Hertford is the county town if Herts yet St Albans, Watford, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Harpenden, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield all don't have a rail link to it.

Bedford is the "county town" of Bedfordshire, but no rail link from Biggleswade, Sandy or Leighton Buzzard.

Chester is the county town of Cheshire yet no link from Macclesfield, Congleton, Sandbach, Winsford, Wilmslow.

Derby is the county town for Derbyshire, yet no rail link from Buxton or Glossop.

 

[MarkyT]

It's a complete and utter red herring.
There are simply loads of places which don't have a rail link to their county town and it really doesn't matter. County towns are little more than ceremonial in most cases.

I agree with you on this matter. Also many of these links do have bus routes connecting them. Buses can be, contrary to some peoples views, a very capable mode of public transport in their niches, with their frequency and central and widespread access to towns often more convenient than notional heavy rail links for many shorter journeys.

 

[GC class B1]

Not this whole "county town" thing *again*.

It's a complete and utter red herring.

There are simply loads of places which don't have a rail link to their county town and it really doesn't matter. County towns are little more than ceremonial in most cases.

To give other examples:

Hertford is the county town if Herts yet St Albans, Watford, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Harpenden, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield all don't have a rail link to it.

Bedford is the "county town" of Bedfordshire, but no rail link from Biggleswade, Sandy or Leighton Buzzard.

Chester is the county town of Cheshire yet no link from Macclesfield, Congleton, Sandbach, Winsford, Wilmslow.

Derby is the county town for Derbyshire, yet no rail link from Buxton or Glossop.



Sigh - another pack of crayons has died in vain.

Derby is not the county town of Derbyshire. Matlock is the county town and this only has a direct service to Derby.
Derby is the county town of Derby and has connections to lots of places.

 

[A0wen]

Derby is not the county town of Derbyshire. Matlock is the county town and this only has a direct service to Derby.
Derby is the county town of Derby and has connections to lots of places.

Historically it was the county town - though the administrative location of the council has now moved and Derby itself is a unitary authority.