Northern and TransPennine Express future

[Whistler40145]

Now that both Northern and TransPennine Express are government owned companies, should they be merged into one with a totally new management structure?

 

[daodao]

Now that both Northern and TransPennine Express are government owned companies, should they be merged into one with a totally new management structure?

It would be better to break up TPE and pass its longer distance "prestige" services to other operators:

• WCML services from NW England to Scotland - to Avanti WC
• Liverpool to York and NE England (Tyneside/Teesside) - to LNER
• Newcastle to Edinburgh semi-fast services - withdraw but incorporate extra stops within existing XC services between these points
• Liverpool to Cleethorpes - to EMR

I would also transfer the local Northern services from Sheffield to Lincoln and Sheffield to Nottingham to EMR.

The rest should be merged into a single Northern franchise with a totally new management structure. Its remit would be to operate dmus/emus only on basic short/medium-distance services, with no first-class and no on board catering, and operating services essentially only within the northern regions of England. Given the current staffing issues, services should be reduced (at least for now) to what can realistically be operated reliably. However, there should be a focus on ensuring that essentially all local urban stations within 10-15 miles of the major cities of Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Hull and Newcastle-upon-Tyne are provided with a 30 minute frequency 0730-1830 Mon-Sat to encourage rail use in congested urban areas.

Current confidence in railway services in Northern England is at an all time low due to widespread unreliability and short-notice cancellations, and unless the management problems are addressed, the future is grim for local passenger rail services in this region.

 

[SuperNova]

Now that both Northern and TransPennine Express are government owned companies, should they be merged into one with a totally new management structure?

TPE will remain its own separate entity.

If anything Northern needs splitting up.

 

[Energy]

It would be better to break up TPE and pass its longer distance "prestige" services to other operators:

Why?

TPEs issues are due to traincrew only signing a small part of the journey with many crew changes. And traincrew only signing a limited amount of rolling stock.

This wouldn't be fixed by breaking up TPE.

 

[Bartsimho]

• Liverpool to Cleethorpes - to EMR

I would also transfer the local Northern services from Sheffield to Lincoln and Sheffield to Nottingham to EMR.

Some things with this. Liverpool to Cleethorpes yes with the crew section at Cleethorpes being EMR.

Sheffield to Lincoln and Sheffield to Nottingham is odd as they both originate from Leeds.
I'd be in favour of keeping these in a split Yorkshire and NE franchise while adding a Lincoln to Sheffield stopper for EMR and making the Northern Leeds to Lincoln run Semi-Fast from Sheffield.

 

[RailWonderer]

There was a discussion recently about TPE pulling a Central Trains and just dissolving, Anglo Scots to Avanti, everything else to Northern, and the Liverpool - Newcastle to XC.

Why?

TPEs issues are due to traincrew only signing a small part of the journey with many crew changes. And traincrew only signing a limited amount of rolling stock.

This wouldn't be fixed by breaking up TPE.

It gives the opportunity to gut the current management.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't get this obsession with redrawing the operator map in the North, as if it would be a magic bullet that would solve all the issues.
Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.

 

[Bartsimho]

I don't get this obsession with redrawing the operator map in the North, as if it would be a magic bullet that would solve all the issues.
Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.

I think it's due to seeing the North West and North East as 2 clear areas which are separated from each other due to the lack of connection between them (due to Geography).

People also see AWC and LNER as complete outliers as Long Distance franchises without regional operations which changes the structure considerably. While the to and from London services have a better income to expense ratio quite a few like the idea of a core area with distance to London allowing for better integration of regional and intercity services under one brand.

 

[Neptune]

I think it's due to seeing the North West and North East as 2 clear areas which are separated from each other due to the lack of connection between them (due to Geography).

Newcastle - Carlisle?
Leeds - Carlisle?
Leeds - Lancaster?
York - Blackpool?
Calder Valley?
Manchester - Sheffield?

Do these routes provide not enough links between east and west for you?

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't get this obsession with redrawing the operator map in the North, as if it would be a magic bullet that would solve all the issues.
Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.

I know right. Splitting out some of the services to other operators who just happen to operate in the areas won't solve anything, multiple operators taking over sections on the edges of their usual operations will lead to only one thing. The first services to be canned will be those on the edges. You can see it coming a mile off.

I actually think bring the two together under a parent company wouldn't be such a bad thing, with perhaps a long term aspiration to start to level things like pay & T&Cs so that crew & staff could start sometime in the future to train across the two child companies so that shortages with one could be covered by the other, at least to an extent. We could even call the two child companies:

• Northen
• TransPennine Express

And they could retain their branding, thus saving money on vinyls & trying to retrain crews on multiple TOCs on the traction and routes. Of course it would signal the death of multiple threads here about what any new train colours might be, and what type of seats they should have, but we gotta roll with the punches....

 

[Bartsimho]

Newcastle - Carlisle?
Leeds - Carlisle?
Leeds - Lancaster?
York - Blackpool?
Calder Valley?
Manchester - Sheffield?

Do these routes provide not enough links between east and west for you?

Including both Leeds-Carlisle and Leeds-Lancaster when they are common over the main section which is Leeds-Settle Junction. I'd say the link portion is Skipton to Hellifield.

The service patterns also show not as many links in the Northern Section.
Newcastle-Carlisle is 3tph each way.
Skipton-Hellifield is 1tph each way.
Sowerby Bridge-Hall Royd Junction is 4tph each way.
Huddersfield-Stalybridge is 5tph each way.
Dore West Junction-Chinley East Junction is 3tph each way.

Covering a straight line distance between Grindleford and Haltwhistle of 119 miles and a population of 15.5 million people isn't good connectivity

 

[Whistler40145]

The northern section of the WCML should still be part of the CrossCountry network and not with TransPennine Express

 

[D365]

Now that both Northern and TransPennine Express are government owned companies, should they be merged into one with a totally new management structure?

The railway industry already sees enough departmental reorganisations every x years. Please don't speculate on the possibility of more!

 

[Manutd1999]

Splitting up the operations seems like a balance between complexity and scale. If a franchise is too big it will be difficult to manage and easy for a contractor to lose control. If a franchise is too small, the management overheads become very costly.

In the short term, I don't think a big re-organisation is going to help. But in the longer term, I think splitting into three broad regions would help:

- North-West
- North-East
- West and South Yorkshire

These 3x TOCs would only operate relatively short-distance commuter-type services.

A fourth TOC would then pick-up all of the services which cross boundaries and all of the longer-distance services. This is essentially "Transpennine", but would be very different to the current TPE.

Manchester-Scotland
Newcastle-Carlisle
Blackpool-York
Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Cleethorpes/Nottingham
Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-North East
Leeds-Skipton-Morecambe/Carlisle
Calder Valley

Smaller, more manageable, franchises can be tendered to a wider range of potential bidders. There would also be greater opportunities to devolve responsibilities to local government and good/bad performance would be more obvious.

Finally, there would also be a clearer split between "local" and "regional/inter-city" services, allowing things like ticketing/branding to be adjusted accordingly.

 

[HSTEd]

Finally, there would also be a clearer split between "local" and "regional/inter-city" services, allowing things like ticketing/branding to be adjusted accordingly.

The big issue that that split is not really clear at all across the UK railway.

The high service densities and comparatively short distances that UK railways operate on mean that the two very quickly blur together.

I'm not sure attempting to separate on that basis is ever going to get meaningful results because there are so many cases that don't really fit.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well, it seems we have one proposition to merge the two together, and one to further split up the local services and turn the current two operators into four. That's two radically different solutions, and I'm not sure exactly what problem we're trying to solve. At least we know there is a problem to be solved, but whether either of these proposals are a solution is another matter...

It seems to me that the problem wasn't ever which large company operated the services, it was how they were being operated. With TPE the crewing arrangements are like a house of cards being built in the inter-car connection of a 142 with severe wheel flats, and until that changes to a more resilient system (and of course the industrial relations improve) I can't see things improving regardless of who operates the service or what colour the crew's uniforms are.

 

[Parjon]

The underlying problem appears to be a toxic relationship between staff and management that neither side can get past. This compounds the operational issues, makes things 10x harder and potentially impossible to resolve. Even if there was willingness to try.

 

[liamf656]

This subject has been battered to death, along with the idea of splitting up the operators. I highly doubt any problems will be solved, the can will just be kicked down the road. It’s best to just keep the two operators separate and as they are for now

 

[Whistler40145]

Would the simplest resolution be to replace the existing top management at Northern?

 

[Trainguy34]

With TPE the crewing arrangements are like a house of cards being built in the inter-car connection of a 142 with severe wheel flats

Couldn't have summed it up better myself.

 

[Neptune]

Would the simplest resolution be to replace the existing top management at Northern?

Please clarify the following from your sweeping statement with zero substance or backing.

A) Why? Zero reasons given
B) Who? How far down the structure are you planning (assuming you know the detail of Northern’s management structure).
C) How? How do you propose the implementation of your management overhaul and how it would improve things without intermediate disruption while this happens.

It does concern me when people make sweeping statements like this and don’t give reasons and solutions. It’s just totally baseless and smacks of lack of knowledge of how the railway runs.

 

[Whistler40145]

Please clarify the following from your sweeping statement with zero substance or backing.

A) Why? Zero reasons given
B) Who? How far down the structure are you planning (assuming you know the detail of Northern’s management structure).
C) How? How do you propose the implementation of your management overhaul and how it would improve things without intermediate disruption while this happens.

It does concern me when people make sweeping statements like this and don’t give reasons and solutions. It’s just totally baseless and smacks of lack of knowledge of how the railway runs

Do you own Northern?

 

[Neptune]

Do you own Northern?

No but I work for them, 32 years and counting. I’d just like to know what you mean by ‘replacing the top management’, reasons why, how it should be done etc.

However judging by, what I consider an irrational response to my questions, I suspect you’re trying to sound clever with zero substance for it. I think we’ll just leave it there unless you can answer my questions rationally.

 

[Whistler40145]

No but I work for them, 32 years and counting. I’d just like to know what you mean by ‘replacing the top management’, reasons why, how it should be done etc.

However judging by, what I consider an irrational response to my questions, I suspect you’re trying to sound clever with zero substance for it. I think we’ll just leave it there unless you can answer my questions rationally.

Why put trains into the timetable that the company has nil chance of covering, surely it would be far more sensible to operate a limited timetable, rather than lots of cancellations and leading to lots of Delay Repay requests when passengers are inconvenienced when services are cancelled at short notice

Think this thread should be closed to ensure it doesn’t get out of control

 

[Neptune]

Why put trains into the timetable that the company has nil chance of covering, surely it would be far more sensible to operate a limited timetable, rather than lots of cancellations and leading to lots of Delay Repay requests when passengers are inconvenienced when services are cancelled at short notice

Ok, that’s a few questions explained on many threads by staff shortages which is hardly exclusive to Northern so please explain what ‘replacing top management’ immediately achieves and how you think the changeover should be implemented without affecting anything. I’m intrigued.

 

[Whistler40145]

Like TransPennine Express, Northern was taken back by the Government, so something was wrong

 

[Neptune]

Like TransPennine Express, Northern was taken back by the Government, so something was wrong

It wasn’t due to performance.

 

[Whistler40145]

Okay, what could be done to improve the current situation?

I certainly sympathise and support the striking workers

 

[Energy]

It gives the opportunity to gut the current management.

The MD and associated management don't need changing. Golton was a competent MD what had his hands tied behind his back.

The relationship issues between management and staff run deeper into the lower management who would be TUPEd across in a TOC change anyway

 

[Whistler40145]

The MD and associated management don't need changing. Golton was a competent MD what had his hands tied behind his back.

The relationship issues between management and staff run deeper into the lower management who would be TUPEd across in a TOC change anyway

I understand, especially when the Windermere and Barrow in Furness services and associated staff were TUPEd to Northern