Northern City Line imbalance in timetable

[Mikey C]

Wanting to go from Highbury and Islington to Moorgate yesterday at 5:10, I was shocked by how poor the timetable was in that direction, with a near 20 minute wait. Indeed I'm baffled by the difference in frequency around that time into and out of London

Going into Moorgate
4:07, 4:29, 4:37, 4:59, 5:07, 5:29, 5:37, 5:48, 5:59
Going out of Moorgate
4:01, 4:10, 4:17, 4:25, 4:31, 4:40, 4:47, 4:55, 5:01, 5:10, 5:17, 5:25, 5:31, 5:40, 5:47, 5:55

How does this work? Do trains run out of service fast through to Moorgate?

 

[pdeaves]

There does appear to be some empty moves going to Moorgate to work the evening peak out again.

 

[306024]

I got caught out by this last week too. Looking at RTT there are 7 trains that run empty from Hornsey Depot to Moorgate. Not obvious why they couldn't at least run as passenger trains from Finsbury Park but someone may know.

 

[barbette165]

One reason they run empty could be to provide flexibility in the case on a late-running southbound service. When a southbound train is running a few minutes late, an empty train could leave depot early using the path of the late train and then take its diagram northbound. The late running train could then do the run northbound that the empty train was going to do - so they swap diagrams.
This could remove a whole evening of late running before it even starts.

 

[bramling]

One reason they run empty could be to provide flexibility in the case on a late-running southbound service. When a southbound train is running a few minutes late, an empty train could leave depot early using the path of the late train and then take its diagram northbound. The late running train could then do the run northbound that the empty train was going to do - so they swap diagrams.
This could remove a whole evening of late running before it even starts.

Only if there’s a crew relief in the right place, otherwise it doesn’t work.

I got caught out by this last week too. Looking at RTT there are 7 trains that run empty from Hornsey Depot to Moorgate. Not obvious why they couldn't at least run as passenger trains from Finsbury Park but someone may know.

I’m not sure there necessarily needs to be a reason, other than no one feels there’s demand going inwards at that time of day.

The only other potential reason is that they couldn’t find a path out of Hornsey at the time which matches up with the required arrival time at Moorgate, but that seems doubtful.

In the normal timetable it has generally been a mix of in service and ECS. The extra time for running in service isn’t that great.

My money is simply on the fact that the base frequency is considered acceptable for going in, so that’s what has been delivered. Not great, but it is what it is. It’s this sort of thing which is why the railway isn’t attracting as many people back as it would like. Ditto with GTR ditching stuff like the Baldock peak extras with one hand, and with the other hand proclaiming they’re doing everything possible to support social distancing. Can’t have it both ways...

 

[306024]

Only if there’s a crew relief in the right place, otherwise it doesn’t work.

Indeed, solve one problem and create more by having your drivers in the wrong place. You plan for right time running but with sufficient resilience to cope with minor delays without the need to resort to swapping unit or crew diagrams around.

My money is simply on the fact that the base frequency is considered acceptable for going in, so that’s what has been delivered.

So is mine!

 

[Mikey C]

Only if there’s a crew relief in the right place, otherwise it doesn’t work.



I’m not sure there necessarily needs to be a reason, other than no one feels there’s demand going inwards at that time of day.

The only other potential reason is that they couldn’t find a path out of Hornsey at the time which matches up with the required arrival time at Moorgate, but that seems doubtful.

In the normal timetable it has generally been a mix of in service and ECS. The extra time for running in service isn’t that great.

My money is simply on the fact that the base frequency is considered acceptable for going in, so that’s what has been delivered. Not great, but it is what it is. It’s this sort of thing which is why the railway isn’t attracting as many people back as it would like. Ditto with GTR ditching stuff like the Baldock peak extras with one hand, and with the other hand proclaiming they’re doing everything possible to support social distancing. Can’t have it both ways...

To be fair (and I was the person affected!), I guess the alternative would have been to maintain the same regular frequency (in and out of London) all day, meaning fewer trains going in the "right" direction in the rush hour, and lots of empty seats in the "wrong" direction.

Going in the wrong direction, it might be better if they could regularise the intervals better. That gap of 22 minutes between 07 and 29 I faced was excessive, when the next southbound trains followed only 8 minutes afterwards

 

[bramling]

To be fair (and I was the person affected!), I guess the alternative would have been to maintain the same regular frequency (in and out of London) all day, meaning fewer trains going in the "right" direction in the rush hour, and lots of empty seats in the "wrong" direction.

Going in the wrong direction, it might be better if they could regularise the intervals better. That gap of 22 minutes between 07 and 29 I faced was excessive, when the next southbound trains followed only 8 minutes afterwards

What we have with the inners at the moment is essentially a base Saturday service -
4tph Moorgate to Welwyn, and 4tph Moorgate to Hertford, two of which extend to Stevenage.

50% of these are removed during the midday and evening, to leave 2tph to Welwyn and 2tph to Stevenage via Hertford.

This is the service GTR/DfT deem is appropriate at the moment (or, being more generous, is the compromise between what they deem is appropriate and how many drivers they have available). To get from the 2tph to 4tph service trains have to get from the depot to where they intersect with the timetable, and it’s simply the case GTR have decided to run these as ECS Hornsey to Moorgate. Evidently it isn’t deemed valuable enough to run them in service from Finsbury Park.

There’s more than a few moans on GTR’s Twitter feeds about overcrowding and 2tph being inadequate, especially on the Hertford line, so clearly this service is far from ideal. One would have thought they could do a bit better - there’s already all the peak service missing, so it shouldn’t be that tight to be running 4tph, especially to Hertford where there is no other service. At least the Welwyn route has the Cambridge service to some destinations.

Or is this masking something else going on? The GN’s depots being fragmented, and difficulties maintaining establishment at the metro depots?