Northern contract and Business Commitments

[Snow1964]

DfT has published the Northern Rail / OLR Contract, restatement and 2023-24 Business Commitments

Northern Railway 2022 OLR rail services contract

Services contract and ancillary legal documents for DfT OLR Holdings Limited and Northern Trains Limited.

www.gov.uk

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1119251/dolr-holdings-northern-trains-services-contract.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1119270/dolr-holdings-northern-trains-amendment-restatement.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1173693/dolr-holdings-northern-trains-business-plan-commitments-2023-2024.pdf

Not read it thoroughly, but already noticed :
section A4 (6) is about business case for replacement of 15x trains
section A6 (1) something about stations with ticket gates having at least one staff for 12.5 hours Mon-Sat and 9.5 hours on Sunday
section A8 (3) is on altering 14 (and another 8 by following years) platforms with large stepping distances

 

[jayah]

Not read it thoroughly, but already noticed :
section A4 (6) is about business case for replacement of 15x trains

Based on the other documents that is around 362 vehicles, or £1bn in current money.
When demanding a business case is presented to them, DfT don't even seem to entertain the idea, that whatever we might think of those fleets, there might not be a 'business case' for this spending given Northern's annual fare revenue is about £250m?

 

[DarloRich]

When demanding a business case is presented to them, DfT don't even seem to entertain the idea, that whatever we might think of those fleets, there might not be a 'business case' for this spending given Northern's annual fare revenue is about £250m?

It is one thing to build a business case for new trains, it is another to fund such a business case!

( cynically - a useful card to hold up your sleeve if you need to buttress support in any "red wall" marginals near any election..........)

 

[ainsworth74]

section A6 (1) something about stations with ticket gates having at least one staff for 12.5 hours Mon-Sat and 9.5 hours on Sunday

Wonder if Northern will take the same approach as VTEC then and rip out the barriers at stations they can't be bothered with manning the barrier for the required times

 

[Snow1964]

It is one thing to build a business case for new trains, it is another to fund such a business case!

( cynically - a useful card to hold up your sleeve if you need to buttress support in any "red wall" marginals near any election..........)

And of course your business case can be split into bands, something like X are essential and will be bigger costs if not done promptly, Y are desirable to improve operating efficiency, Z would have higher costs over 20-40 years if not done, but * could wait 5 years, but would be handy to have options etc

Only an idiot would present a case that is for about 408 vehicles, all needed, and less than all is not an option.

The trick is to present it to get as many as possible in first essential bands

Edited quantity to 408 as per page 146 of contract.

 

[DarloRich]

And of course your business case can be split into bands, something like X are essential and will be bigger costs if not done promptly, Y are desirable to improve operating efficiency, Z would have higher costs over 20-40 years if not done, but * could wait 5 years, but would be handy to have options etc

Only an idiot would present a case that is for about 360 vehicles, all needed, and less than all is not an option.

The trick is to present it to get as many as possible in first essential bands

Absolutely! However, i suspect the DfT will give the bid lots of consideration. Then reject it.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Based on the other documents that is around 362 vehicles, or £1bn in current money.
When demanding a business case is presented to them, DfT don't even seem to entertain the idea, that whatever we might think of those fleets, there might not be a 'business case' for this spending given Northern's annual fare revenue is about £250m?

The “business case” will have little to do with their annual fare revenue - it will have more to do with present/future rolling stock costs/availability and whether new will be cheaper.

But once a proposal is in, the DfT is not obliged to do anything with it.

 

[Snow1964]

The rolling stock tables for Northern seem to be all vehicles until end of contract (per page 146) except classes 142, 144 which ended 3 years ago

The additional stock (11 x 2car class 156 from East Midlands, 17 x 3car 323 ex West Midlands) which should all have been within Northern months ago) as per table page 147 and is also to end of contract (presumably still sub leased back pending delivery of 730s)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1119251/dolr-holdings-northern-trains-services-contract.pdf

The contract covers
156 (78 x 2car) 150
14 (7 x 2car) 155
102 (51 x 2car) and 22 (11 x 2car ex EM) 156
114 (45 x 2car, 8 x 3car) 158

so appears business commitments is about a plan replacing 408 15x vehicles (not 360 I said earlier), all of which would be 35+ years old by time replacements delivered (and some might be over 40 years old)

 

[jonesy3001]

Would it be new stock replacing the 15x or rebuilds like more 769s converted from 319s to keep costs down.
Seen stadler and CAF mentioned but nothing has happened about that.

 

[Roast Veg]

Would it be new stock replacing the 15x or rebuilds like more 769s converted from 319s to keep costs down.
Seen stadler and CAF mentioned but nothing has happened about that.

There aren't enough 769s to cover this large an order. Additionally, there are too many short platforms to avoid the need for a small 2 car unit.

 

[jonesy3001]

There aren't enough 769s to cover this large an order. Additionally, there are too many short platforms to avoid the need for a small 2 car unit.

So new builds then?
Hybrids where mentioned at the start of the year but nothing has been said since.
To be honest I do like the CAF units and the MD at the time did say he only wants a fleet of both diesel and electric versions instead of having different fleets.
Just have to wait and see what they announce but cannot see the daft paying out for new trains.

 

[Clarence Yard]

There may not be any announcement if the DfT decide not to proceed with any order.

 

[jonesy3001]

There may not be any announcement if the DfT decide not to proceed with any order.

So how are TOCs like northern supposed to replace diesel trains by 2040 if the daft are not paying out for new units.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It’s all about timing - they will have to at some stage but if there is no money at the moment, they will just shelve it.

The Government are currently getting some heat from the manufacturing industry regarding keeping jobs going in the factories so you may yet see some more CAF units being ordered.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s all about timing - they will have to at some stage but if there is no money at the moment, they will just shelve it.

The Government are currently getting some heat from the manufacturing industry regarding keeping jobs going in the factories so you may yet see some more CAF units being ordered.

Politics will no doubt be part of it, you can imagine if a train factory announces a provisional closure due to lack of orders during run up to a general election.

Similarly if a marginal constituency campaign highlights Government have shunned authorising replacement trains for ones approaching 40 years old.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Will the fact that the Northern franchise is affectively publicly owned change any of this? As for the 15x trains I would be glad to see the back of the 150, 153s and 156s, all truly awful things to travel on. The 158s are still decent enough although showing their age. I made the mistake of sitting above an engine on a 150 once, it was so loud it was impossible to hear the ticket inspector.

 

[Roast Veg]

It’s all about timing - they will have to at some stage but if there is no money at the moment, they will just shelve it.

The Government are currently getting some heat from the manufacturing industry regarding keeping jobs going in the factories so you may yet see some more CAF units being ordered.

Are you referring to the Railway Industry Association report?

Perhaps the DfT could authorize a very long and slow delivery of units, to ameliorate the costs? It could either be broken up into lots of options or just scheduled for a new unit every 4 weeks.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No - it’s the individual manufacturers (and in one case, a foreign Government) who have been or are very shortly going to have individual meetings with the UK Government.

 

[Mollman]

What is really needed is a committed to electrification programme from which the unit replacement programme can be created (i.e. knowing how many non-electric units are needed). I think I might have just seen a pig go past my 2nd floor window!

 

[jonesy3001]

Only thing they can build now is either EMUs or bi-modes depending on how many cars be 2,3 or 4, since the government want rid of diesel trains by 2040.
Depending if they're made by CAF or stadler.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There aren't enough 769s to cover this large an order. Additionally, there are too many short platforms to avoid the need for a small 2 car unit.

There aren't actually that many (though in some cases it might require a fence to come down and a bit of tidying up), but even so SDO can deal with this.

 

[Napier]

Will the fact that the Northern franchise is affectively publicly owned change any of this? As for the 15x trains I would be glad to see the back of the 150, 153s and 156s, all truly awful things to travel on. The 158s are still decent enough although showing their age. I made the mistake of sitting above an engine on a 150 once, it was so loud it was impossible to hear the ticket inspector.

Sad fact is the Government Railway Money-Go-Round just seems to want to do more with what they have while the MP's and funding offices seem to be taking more and more.

Shame we couldn't get some Hydrogen units.

Mireo Plus H – The next generation of hydrogen trains

Discover the commuter train for emission-free mobility

www.mobility.siemens.com

 

[Gaz55]

By the end of the decade would seem a logical time for any notional new fleet order to be placed and put in to service. It will be interesting to see how this develops going forward.

 

[BurtonM]

I'd be very glad to see the back of 150s, but I think a well sorted 156 is passable (I'm sure I read they like to rust away though).
The two car thing is annoying as two car trains simply aren't big enough for the needs of the network any more: what's wrong with larger units and SDO?

 

[ModernRailways]

I'd be very glad to see the back of 150s, but I think a well sorted 156 is passable (I'm sure I read they like to rust away though).
The two car thing is annoying as two car trains simply aren't big enough for the needs of the network any more: what's wrong with larger units and SDO?

Surely at this stage the plan should be for all 3 car units, with some longer? The 195s can then be displaced to routes where a 2 car unit may be suited or where they can run in multiple, up around Newcastle we could definitely get away with the 2 car 195s, when it's busy due to events etc attach another unit and if platforms are too short SDO will kick in to help.

I'm sure I also read that 150s are in a better condition than 156s are, they certainly seem it from when I've travelled on a few recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely at this stage the plan should be for all 3 car units, with some longer? The 195s can then be displaced to routes where a 2 car unit may be suited or where they can run in multiple, up around Newcastle we could definitely get away with the 2 car 195s, when it's busy due to events etc attach another unit and if platforms are too short SDO will kick in to help.

I'm sure I also read that 150s are in a better condition than 156s are, they certainly seem it from when I've travelled on a few recently.

If the new order is bi-modes there will be some sort of cascade. It'd make no sense wasting a bi-mode on the West Lancashire "star" (Ormskirk, Colne, Blackpool S) when the under-wires running is tiny - these routes are pretty much made for 2-car 195s, or rather 2-car 195s were made for these routes long term.

That they'd eventually end up on the quiet non-electrified branches was I believe the whole reason why any 2-car 195s were ordered in the first place, rather than 3s and 4s.

 

[Mollman]

Sad fact is the Government Railway Money-Go-Round just seems to want to do more with what they have while the MP's and funding offices seem to be taking more and more.

Shame we couldn't get some Hydrogen units.

Mireo Plus H – The next generation of hydrogen trains

Discover the commuter train for emission-free mobility

www.mobility.siemens.com

There is the speculative order of 10 Hydrogen Aventras from Eversholt, although it has gone rather quiet since it was announced in 2021.
https://eversholtrail.co.uk/news/al...ks-first-ever-brand-new-hydrogen-train-fleet/

10.11.2021

Alstom and Eversholt Rail sign an agreement for the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet​

• New co-operation agreement aims to provide an initial fleet of 10 new hydrogen trains for UK
• Industry first will help UK and Scotland Government ambitions to decarbonise rail

Alstom, Britain’s leading train manufacturer and maintenance provider, and Eversholt Rail, leading British train owner and financier, have today announced a Memorandum of Understanding aimed at delivering the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet.

The two companies have agreed to work together, sharing technical and commercial information necessary for Alstom to design, build, commission and support a fleet of ten three-car hydrogen multiple units (HMUs). These will be built by Alstom in Britain. The new HMU fleet will be based on the latest evolution of the Alstom Aventra platform and the intention is that final contracts for the fleet will be signed in early 2022.

Eversholt Rail and Alstom are committed to taking a leading role in supporting the UK and Scotland Government ambitions to decarbonise its rail sector by 2040, and the Scottish Government’s objective of doing so by 2035. Alstom is a world leader in the provision of rolling stock solutions and was the first company in the world to produce a hydrogen powered train – the Coradia iLint – which is in operational service in Germany.

 

[Roast Veg]

There aren't actually that many (though in some cases it might require a fence to come down and a bit of tidying up), but even so SDO can deal with this.

I'm thinking more about some of the very short bay platforms at larger stations that cannot be extended, though as mentioned 195s internally cascaded should be able to handle that.

 

[Starmill]

Would it be new stock replacing the 15x or rebuilds like more 769s converted from 319s to keep costs down.
Seen stadler and CAF mentioned but nothing has happened about that.

More 769s would cost more than keeping 150s going. It's certainly not going to happen.

 

[jonesy3001]

More 769s would cost more than keeping 150s going. It's certainly not going to happen.

So new builds then?