Northern electric unit shortages

[Eric]

Just been to the Ilkley book fair and so far I’ve seen numerous diesels running under the wires.

Travelled on a 144 and back on a 150, felt like I wasn’t retired and had gone back in time 30years.

I take it the 333 units are having problems?

 

[Geeves]

It runs on the bare bones at the best of times but one 333 is in the works being painted in the new Northern colours. No doubt another is on an exam and any other failures.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just been to the Ilkley book fair and so far I’ve seen numerous diesels running under the wires.

Travelled on a 144 and back on a 150, felt like I wasn’t retired and had gone back in time 30years.

I take it the 333 units are having problems?

All the Yorkshire based EMUs have been slowly starting to suffer, door faults, faults with the electrics, AC and CIS fails amongst other things. The 331s can't come soon enough, although I suspect it will be well into 2019 before any get into revenue service here.

 

[Adam0984]

From this mornings list
2 322s are at Neville Hill (1 only has 2/4 traction packs operational and the other needs a traction motor renewed
4 333s are stopped (1 having refurb at Holbeck, 1 having an unplanned bogie change, 1 having a service check and the other having an A exam)

 

[_toommm_]

It runs on the bare bones at the best of times but one 333 is in the works being painted in the new Northern colours. No doubt another is on an exam and any other failures.

Thought they weren't keeping the 333s or has that changed/I've read it wrong?

 

[Kite159]

Thought they weren't keeping the 333s or has that changed/I've read it wrong?

I believe they are keeping the 333s, but ditching the 321/322s. The 333s refurbished so one coach has a more 'metro' like interior [so probably something like the 357/3s]

 

[700007]

Send some Renatus 321s up there in the long run...

 

[Ianigsy]

Just been to the Ilkley book fair and so far I’ve seen numerous diesels running under the wires.

Travelled on a 144 and back on a 150, felt like I wasn’t retired and had gone back in time 30years.

The climb away from Apperley Junction on a 144 is quite something and a reminder of just how good the 333s are.

When I commuted regularly from Menston, I think there was a return journey booked for a Pacer to allow the EMUs to be moved to the right position for the evening peak, but I think that went when the 322s came. If a 333 was unavailable for the 1732 Leeds-Ilkley, a 3-car 144 or 2x158 seemed to be the preferred replacement.

 

[Bantamzen]

I believe they are keeping the 333s, but ditching the 321/322s. The 333s refurbished so one coach has a more 'metro' like interior [so probably something like the 357/3s]

I thought the 'Metro' style interior (limited to the driving cars) idea has been ditched? I'm sure I read something about it over in the Northern Refurbishment thread?

Send some Renatus 321s up there in the long run...

There's simply no need. By the time enough of those could be released, the 331s will be in service & can offer some diagrams up to 6 car workings, something that's not possible with the 321s. And all the 333s are being refurbished so will be close to the 331 standard. What is needed are some stand in EMUs right now whilst the various units away for refurb & maintenance, or at the very least enough spare DMUs to operate at 4 car when covering the busiest of diagrams.

 

[AMD]

I thought the 'Metro' style interior (limited to the driving cars) idea has been ditched? I'm sure I read something about it over in the Northern Refurbishment thread?

Yes, it's now only a like for like refresh internally.

 

[Eric]

Looking at Northerns twitter a three car 144 worked the 17.16 Leeds - Skipton leaving over 100 people behind yesterday.

This simply wouldn’t happen in London or the south. It’s a disgrace that Northern treat their passengers like this. Utterly disgraceful.

 

[jamesst]

Looking at Northerns twitter a three car 144 worked the 17.16 Leeds - Skipton leaving over 100 people behind yesterday.

This simply wouldn’t happen in London or the south. It’s a disgrace that Northern treat their passengers like this. Utterly disgraceful.

Having lived in the South for a number of years before I moved back to the North West I can tell you shortformimg simply does happen there, the only difference is it can be a 4 car instead of 8 or even 12. Just as packed, just as many people left behind

 

[Taunton]

Looking at Northerns twitter a three car 144 worked the 17.16 Leeds - Skipton leaving over 100 people behind yesterday.

This simply wouldn’t happen in London or the south. It’s a disgrace that Northern treat their passengers like this. Utterly disgraceful.

Try Barking-Gospel Oak at Blackhorse Road in the evening peak.

A 3 car would be a luxury ...

 

[Bantamzen]

Looking at Northerns twitter a three car 144 worked the 17.16 Leeds - Skipton leaving over 100 people behind yesterday.

This simply wouldn’t happen in London or the south. It’s a disgrace that Northern treat their passengers like this. Utterly disgraceful.

Do you mean the 17:26, the 17:15 is Leeds-Ilkley? But to be honest faced with a 3 car 144, or no service at all I'd rather have something even if I couldn't get on it. A cancelled 17:26 means the next two are usually even more rammed. Although to be honest, on the now rare occasions I "treat" myself to the 17:26, I plan to be on the platform a minimum of 5-10 minutes before departure, otherwise I'd head for the 17:33 for Ilkley (I can use either heading to Baildon), or failing that get the 17:41.

 

[Starmill]

This simply wouldn’t happen in London or the south. It’s a disgrace that Northern treat their passengers like this. Utterly disgraceful.

People left behind on trains that are too full for them to board is something I have witnessed in Northern England, in Scotland in the South West and in the South East. It's pretty bad but it's certainly not a Northern only thing.

It will get much worse in the run up to Christmas, particularly in Manchester and Leeds.

 

[Adam0984]

Do you mean the 17:26, the 17:15 is Leeds-Ilkley? But to be honest faced with a 3 car 144, or no service at all I'd rather have something even if I couldn't get on it. A cancelled 17:26 means the next two are usually even more rammed. Although to be honest, on the now rare occasions I "treat" myself to the 17:26, I plan to be on the platform a minimum of 5-10 minutes before departure, otherwise I'd head for the 17:33 for Ilkley (I can use either heading to Baildon), or failing that get the 17:41.

Think he means the 17:18 Skipton which was a 2 on Tuesday and a 3 car 144 yesterday. The 1725 is the Morecambe so will be a DMU

 

[Ianigsy]

The trouble with that 1718 is that if it doesn't run, you get a lot of people going for the 1725 Morecambe (generally a 2-car DMU) instead so it's probably better for it to run short formed than not at all.

 

[Eric]

Think he means the 17:18 Skipton which was a 2 on Tuesday and a 3 car 144 yesterday. The 1725 is the Morecambe so will be a DMU

Yes that was the service. The pictures on social media looked horrendous.

 

[Eric]

This was earlier at Bradford, I can honestly say I’ve never seen the train services in West Yorkshire as bad as they currently are.

 

[Timrud]

It was rammed at Leeds at about 08:40 this morning

 

[Eric]

It was rammed at Leeds at about 08:40 this morning

It’s utterly disgraceful Timrud. Bradford and Leeds are two of the biggest cities in the country and basically swallow each other up if you include Shipley and Pudsey.

To have these inadequate two carriage trains that are over 25 years old shouldn’t be happening.

I’m not moaning for moaning sake but why should it cost us £4.60 return to stand be packed in like sardines.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

This is all going on whilst class 319’s are sat in sidings collecting dust. I get that Leeds crews won’t be trained on them and such, but they would’ve known this was going to happen from a few months ago, surely if they had any brains something could’ve been put in place. Scotrail noticed they had a short fall and sorted that somewhat by hiring 365’s, what prevented Northern from doing similar? Is it down to them being inept?

 

[Eric]

This is all going on whilst class 319’s are sat in sidings collecting dust. I get that Leeds crews won’t be trained on them and such, but they would’ve known this was going to happen from a few months ago, surely if they had any brains something could’ve been put in place. Scotrail noticed they had a short fall and sorted that somewhat by hiring 365’s, what prevented Northern from doing similar? Is it down to them being inept?

I don't want to bash Northern for Northerns sake but where are all the trains? Leeds and Bradford has a massive flow and every train should four carriages minimum.

Not a single 150, 158 or 144 under the wires or from the Interchange.

How have Northern let them all run into despair?

 

[Bantamzen]

Think he means the 17:18 Skipton which was a 2 on Tuesday and a 3 car 144 yesterday. The 1725 is the Morecambe so will be a DMU

Yes that was the service. The pictures on social media looked horrendous.

Ah, sorry. Its just that the same has bern true of the 17:26 Leeds - Skipton, as Tweeted a couple of days ago:

https://twitter.com/Rob_Abbey/status/1049702201961132032?s=09

I don't want to bash Northern for Northerns sake but where are all the trains? Leeds and Bradford has a massive flow and every train should four carriages minimum.

Not a single 150, 158 or 144 under the wires or from the Interchange.

How have Northern let them all run into despair?

Northern have long had these problems over at least three franchises. I can remember commuting from South Elmsall to Bradford when only the 3x 321s where available to the Doncaster runs, so 3 car 144s were a regular sight, and never a welcome one because unlike Skipton or Bradford not being able to board would mean an hour wait at least. Even if you managed to shoehorn on, they could easily lose 15-20 minutes en route, more if they were holding up a GNER when they would be shoved into the loop near to Fitzwilliam. Oh and there were the times when a lone 153 rocked up for the 06:38 Leeds...

I'm afraid the real fault lies with successive governments refusing to allow growth and investment in the North's railways.

 

[bb21]

This simply wouldn’t happen in London or the south. It’s a disgrace that Northern treat their passengers like this. Utterly disgraceful.

Won't happen in London? Trains in London leave people behind with 12 cars sometimes.

 

[js1000]

Pacers on the Southport to Wilmslow route this evening. Can't say I used this route as often as I do but recall it being all electrics prior to May 2018 timetable.

Those south of Manchester with wires will be having a heart attacks. Pretty ridiculous in 2018 Britain.

It's so frustrating that Arriva don't realise they are taking the franchise backwards - not forwards. The notion of "improvements" only exist in their heads.

As far as I see it, services and staffing is deliberately being run into the ground. They make Abellio-Serco under the previous franchise look good which is some achievement.

 

[superkev]

Perhaps if Scotrail eventually part with the remaining (was it 6 more) 170s and promised other dmus things may improve a bit although no dmu can keep emu times.
Pity Northern can't or wont hire some 321s from somewhere.
K

 

[PHILIPE]

Pacers on the Southport to Wilmslow route this evening. Can't say I used this route as often as I do but recall it being all electrics prior to May 2018 timetable.

Those south of Manchester with wires will be having a heart attacks. Pretty ridiculous in 2018 Britain.

It's so frustrating that Arriva don't realise they are taking the franchise backwards - not forwards. The notion of "improvements" only exist in their heads.

As far as I see it, services and staffing is deliberately being run into the ground. They make Abellio-Serco under the previous franchise look good which is some achievement.

How could an Electric work from Southport ? There has been a new Timetable since then

 

[northernchris]

As far as I see it, services and staffing is deliberately being run into the ground. They make Abellio-Serco under the previous franchise look good which is some achievement.

I don't think Arriva are deliberately running it into the ground, there are a lot of issues affecting services at the moment and I think they are all coming to a head. Northern are desperately short of stock, which I think goes back to the Labour government of 2004 who let out the previous franchise on a no growth basis. Then what with the extensions and direct award Serco/Abellio got, it prolonged the time before significat changes could be made

A lot of Northern's fleet needs to be made PRM compliant, and at a quick guess there's around 6-7 DMUs out of service at a time. We're also on leaf fall season, so trains are being taken out of use for repairs to wheelsets further adding to the shortages. With the EMUs, the doubling of frequency to Kirkstal Forge has required an additional unit to be used on the Airedale / Wharfedale line, however this has had to be found within the existing fleet as no additional EMUs have been added to Neville Hill's allocation. Plus the 333 refurb programme has now started

Then there's the staffing issues. something Arriva can be blamed for. They either don't have enough, or have a training backlog, which means they are struggling to cover all services

And finally, and for me the most frustrating one is service regulation. Since the timetables were changed in May there are frequently delays on approach to major stations. Leeds is particularly bad now, from my experience very few Northern services get to have a clear run in to the station with those coming off the Wakefield and Calder Valley lines the most prone to hold ups meaning they often fail PPM despite arriving at the approach to the station on time

Hopefully once the industrial dispute is resolved, the new trains are in service and the refurb programme slows down things will begin to pick up again, but unfortunately I think the next few months are going to be challenging

 

[geoffk]

Send some Renatus 321s up there in the long run...

How about the HX 332s, which are being replaced. They are mechanically similar to the 333s. ANy chance of Northern getting any?